Highwayman's Hitch (followup)

[I'm posting this as a new message since Google groups seems to be
skipping Karl's reply for some reason.]

Karl,

I'm very glad you asked. It sounds like you might have been using the
hitch under conditions that allowed it to hold, such as with a high
friction object of a certain size. If you were using it for critical
purposes and nothing bad happened, count your blessings and find a
different hitch. The Highwayman's hitch is liable to capsize and
slip, or, if you're lucky, capsize and just mildly jam up. Don't just
take my word on it. Try it yourself on different objects with
different sizes, shapes and textures (table legs, metal poles,
baseball bats, etc.) Experimenting with various ropes might also be
helpful.

Once you see the hitch come undone under very mundane loading, the
image will stick with you and will cause you to seek a different hitch
for critical purposes.

See also the knot testing section at the bottom of this web page:

http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/knotfaq.html

Cheers,
roo


P.S. Aside from the specific problems of the Highwayman's hitch, many
people have misgivings about using any type of slipped hitch when it
comes to life or limb. It's worth considering if you want a person or
incidental snag to allow the hitch to release while loaded.

_______________________
Karl wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
(roo) wrote:

Also, please don't use the Highwayman's hitch for
anything but entertainment. Sorry, I'll refrain
from commenting further.

I wish you would comment further.
I've had no problems with it and have not only staked my limb on it
but
also those of my Scouts.

Sometimes, the problem is not the knot but the way it is being tied.
If there really is a problem with the hitch, I would like to know
about it.

--
Karl Pollak, Richmond, British Columbia
Sea Scouting in Canada at http://www.seascouts.ca/

(roo) wrote in message om...
[I'm posting this as a new message since Google groups seems to be
skipping Karl's reply for some reason.]

and have not only staked my limb on it but also those of my Scouts.
Sometimes, the problem is not the knot but the way it is being tied.
If there really is a problem with the hitch, I would like to know


Hi Karl,

Yes, a failing (highwayman's) hitch is possible /likely.

But a stable/secure slipknot will slip too, in the end, or much
earlier...

a slipknot called "the macrame" is (sometimes) used as a `retrievable
anchor system`, with expert climbers-canyoneers.
It is mentioned in a recent post from Brian Grimley:
"Knot for closing a trawlnet - revisited".

and it is accompanied by warnings: "there are significant risks.
Macrame, OmniSling and Bowline Variation retrievable anchor systems
are RELEASABLE. Accidental release during rappel may result in serious
injury or death. The release mechanism of these systems should only be
set for the last person down -- the most experienced person in the
group. All other members of the group should rappel on a fixed rope."

I would rappel on it myself, with reserve...
and I rappeled with scouts (and others) with proper gear and rigging,
since rappelling is great for many reasons (this is dangerous enough,
I learned the hard way)
but I am not so sure about using/teaching a releasable hitch when
rappelling with others.

I think the problem is partly knotting techniques (forget about the
highwayman's hitch )
and partly (staying out of) circumstances.

Things in favor:
having options in hazardous situations is priceless;
may be the real gain/ advantage with scouts is in their attitude,
their responsibility for eachother
(and then again, this responsibility can result in deciding not to use
it)

just opinions, not expertise,

ben

[SOMEONE ASKED (NAMED KARL) : ]

and have not only staked my limb on it but also those of my Scouts.
Sometimes, the problem is not the knot but the way it is being tied.
If there really is a problem with the hitch, I would like to know

THE HIGHWAYMAN'S HITCH IS TREACHEROUS/BAD!!!!!!
DO NOT USE IT (ESP. FOR LIFE-CRITICAL PURPOSES).
(Knot-book authors who show this knot w/o prominent warning are
irresponsible!)

The greater the size of the hitched object relative to the rope,
the greater the danger of capsizing. (If one uses a large slip-tuck,
there is a chance of that being nipped on capsizing and the knot
locking--to your inconenience, but maybe not injury.)

DO NOT USE THE HIGHWAYMAN'S HITCH.

(Roo2, you should not shy from this warning!)

Finally, after decade's of mindless copycat promulgation of this
lousy knot, Clyde Soles's impending _Outdoor Knots_ book (Mountaineers)
will present a safe version of this knot. (Reverse the orientation
of the first two bights, having the SPart's bight SURROUND the
next bight (nip-bight), then the slip-tuck is inserted into this
nip-bight, and the SPart bears on the nip-bight vs. slip-tuck.)
There are MANY other ways to effect this knot. (E.g., if one
makes a full TURN of the end-bight (slip-tuck) around the SPart
and then finishes off the Highwayman's H. tucking now from the
opposite side, this nip point will be (can be) opposite the
loading side of the object, and will better hold.)

But the Highwayman's H. too easily can load the slip-tuck and
pull it to capsize. (And, yes, it CAN hold pretty well under
many conditions of materials and esp. similar diameters; but
you don't want to play dice with lives. And you have SOOO
many simple, equally easy alternatives (which have been ignored
for so long by so many--and why???!)!)

a slipknot called "the macrame" is (sometimes) used as a `retrievable
anchor system`, with expert climbers-canyoneers.
It is mentioned in a recent post from Brian Grimley:
"Knot for closing a trawlnet - revisited".

and it is accompanied by warnings: "there are significant risks.
Macrame, OmniSling and Bowline Variation retrievable anchor systems
are RELEASABLE. Accidental release during rappel may result in serious
injury or death. The release mechanism of these systems should only be
set for the last person down

Actually, this is not such wise advice: the experienced person could
be at the hitch with some additional rope tying it secure as a back-up,
and thus could observe the behavior of the hitch on those who (safely)
went first. Content with its loading, etc., the last person could
untie the safety back-up and abseil in confidence.

I would rappel on it myself, with reserve...
and I rappeled with scouts (and others) with proper gear and rigging,
since rappelling is great for many reasons (this is dangerous enough,
I learned the hard way)
but I am not so sure about using/teaching a releasable hitch when
rappelling with others.

1) Rappelling is maybe the most dangerous part of climbing, etc.,
as measured by accidents (whether from overconfidence, or being
done at end of climb in fatigue, or whatever).

2) What's the point of the releasable hitch? In canyneering, I think
there is some concern about hauling line or using a sling that will
be left on-site--a sort of eco-minded carry-in=carry-out policy.
But in climbing, having the evenly halved line suddenly cast loose,
like one big lasso to snag everything, is worse than hauling the
line down and having just the inevitable freed end & rope fall.

--dl*
====

x-no-archive: yes
(roo) wrote:

[I'm posting this as a new message since Google groups seems to be
skipping Karl's reply for some reason.]

"x-no-archive: yes" might be the reason.
It will show up poperly for those using a proper news server.

I'm very glad you asked. It sounds like you might have been using the
hitch under conditions that allowed it to hold, such as with a high
friction object of a certain size.

I have used it on steel pipes as well as tree roots and fallen timber. For
the most part the rope was nylon weave a rather slippery affair in its own
right. We have found that manila or sisal can be sometimes a little
difficult to realease and I do not use poly for anything.

If you were using it for critical purposes and nothing bad happened,
count your blessings and find a different hitch.

Well, I guess it would depend on what you consider "critical purpose". For
the most part, we've used it to rappel down a slope and release the rope
from the hitch when we've reached the bottom.

If 12 year old boys (with about 15 minutes of instruction) can tie it
properly so that it will safely hold their weight - and mine - I would say
the hitch is pretty safe when tied correctly.

The Highwayman's hitch is liable to capsize and
slip, or, if you're lucky, capsize and just mildly jam up.

I've had about 6 different groups of boys tie it in the middle of the night
and it never happened. How they tied it, that's how it stayed until they
yanked on the working end to realease it at the bottom of the ravine.

Don't just take my word on it.

OK, I won't.

Try it yourself on different objects with
different sizes, shapes and textures (table legs, metal poles,
baseball bats, etc.)

I agree with the idea of testing a hitch on a variety of different objects,
but why would anyone want to tie a highwayman's hitch to a table leg or a
baseball bat? When I hitch something, I would prefer to do it to an
immovable object.

Once you see the hitch come undone under very mundane loading, the
image will stick with you and will cause you to seek a different hitch
for critical purposes.

OK, I'm open to suggestions.
The task is to rappel down a wall of a steep ravine or cliff, when you have
reached the bottom, you recover your rope and take it with you to your next
obstacle.

What would you suggest I use for it?


--
Karl Pollak, Richmond, British Columbia
Sea Scouting in Canada at http://www.seascouts.ca/

x-no-archive: yes
(ben) wrote:

It is mentioned in a recent post from Brian Grimley:
"Knot for closing a trawlnet - revisited".

Sorry Ben, I only read this group superficially. There is some usefull
stuff in here on occassion, but when I have somebody telling me that a
bowline is not a good knot and might not stand up to heavy use, I have to
shake my head in sadness and move on.

If somebody wants to improve on one of the most common knots, one that has
been used by millions for the last coupld of hundred years, be my guest.

The release mechanism of these systems should only be
set for the last person down -- the most experienced person in the
group. All other members of the group should rappel on a fixed rope."

I have used the word rappel rather losely, lest someone get the image of
little Boy Scouts dangling off a rock face hundreds of meters in the air.

I would rappel on it myself, with reserve...
and I rappeled with scouts (and others) with proper gear and rigging,
since rappelling is great for many reasons (this is dangerous enough,

I get the feeling that while seem to be talking about mountaineering, I'm
talking more about cross country hiking in rough terrain.

I think the problem is partly knotting techniques (forget about the
highwayman's hitch ) and partly (staying out of) circumstances.

Please explain.
I know that any knot can fail, especially if it is improperly tied, used
for the improper function or on impproper rope. I suppose you could hang
someone on a fisherman's knot if you don't know how to make a proper
hangman's noose, but it might get a tad messy, unpleasant for the star
performer and terribly long for the audience to wait for the finale.

YiS,

--
Karl Pollak, Richmond, British Columbia
Sea Scouting in Canada at http://www.seascouts.ca/

Dan Lehman wrote:

....
But the Highwayman's H. too easily can load the slip-tuck and
pull it to capsize. (And, yes, it CAN hold pretty well under
many conditions of materials and esp. similar diameters; but
you don't want to play dice with lives. And you have SOOO
many simple, equally easy alternatives (which have been ignored
for so long by so many--and why???!)!)

What would you recommend, Dan?

[2nd followup]

Karl,

Whatever it is you're doing differently than everyone else that causes
Google groups to omit your message, this is the last time I'm going to
copy and paste your message(s) for you. Your reply to Ben and myself
is below. As an aside, many people use Google groups and even those
who don't still have their messages show up there. I'm not upset
about it, I'm just letting you know it's not worth the trouble.

I'm going to get right to the point. I'm not trying to be cute, but
my sincere recommendation is that you get trained by a qualified and
certified instructor if you're doing rappelling on any incline steep
enough for people to get injured on. There's more to it than just not
using a Highwayman's hitch. The hard part for you is that you'll need
to swallow your pride and instruct your scouts not to use the
Highwayman's hitch despite your lack of problems thus far. An unsafe
knot is only dangerous once it has gained your trust. I encouraged
you to try the hitch under different conditions so you can see it fail
every other time rather than once every 80 times (for example).

On your doubt of the newsgroup because of "some guy saying the bowline
is not a good knot..." [paraphrasing], I don't think you caught the
context of it. I like the bowline in general and use it regularly,
but the overwhelming concensus of people in the know (not just this
group) is that the bowline isn't secure enough for critical use. I
wholeheartedly concur with that assessment.

You have to remember that synthetic ropes like nylon are not the same
as the manila used in ages past. Even long ago, there was recognition
of the limitations of the bowline as evidenced by the places on old
ships where the bowline would not be used, even in manila rope. The
water bowline, the buntline hitch, etc. provided additional security
that the bowline couldn't provide.

If you can untie a knot in a short period by movement that simulates
wind or user motion (while loaded or unloaded) you don't want to use
it to protect life or limb. Remember that knots are often out of the
sight/reach of the user for
extended periods of time and therefore shouldn't require a babysitter.

-roo



-no-archive: yes
(roo) wrote:

[I'm posting this as a new message since Google groups seems to be
skipping Karl's reply for some reason.]

"x-no-archive: yes" might be the reason.
It will show up poperly for those using a proper news server.

I'm very glad you asked. It sounds like you might have been using
the
hitch under conditions that allowed it to hold, such as with a high
friction object of a certain size.

I have used it on steel pipes as well as tree roots and fallen
timber. For
the most part the rope was nylon weave a rather slippery affair in
its own
right. We have found that manila or sisal can be sometimes a little
difficult to realease and I do not use poly for anything.

If you were using it for critical purposes and nothing bad happened,
count your blessings and find a different hitch.

Well, I guess it would depend on what you consider "critical
purpose". For
the most part, we've used it to rappel down a slope and release the
rope
from the hitch when we've reached the bottom.

If 12 year old boys (with about 15 minutes of instruction) can tie it
properly so that it will safely hold their weight - and mine - I
would say
the hitch is pretty safe when tied correctly.

The Highwayman's hitch is liable to capsize and
slip, or, if you're lucky, capsize and just mildly jam up.

I've had about 6 different groups of boys tie it in the middle of the
night
and it never happened. How they tied it, that's how it stayed until
they
yanked on the working end to realease it at the bottom of the ravine.

Don't just take my word on it.

OK, I won't.

Try it yourself on different objects with
different sizes, shapes and textures (table legs, metal poles,
baseball bats, etc.)

I agree with the idea of testing a hitch on a variety of different
objects,
but why would anyone want to tie a highwayman's hitch to a table leg
or a
baseball bat? When I hitch something, I would prefer to do it to an
immovable object.

Once you see the hitch come undone under very mundane loading, the
image will stick with you and will cause you to seek a different
hitch
for critical purposes.

OK, I'm open to suggestions.
The task is to rappel down a wall of a steep ravine or cliff, when
you have
reached the bottom, you recover your rope and take it with you to
your next
obstacle.

What would you suggest I use for it?


--
Karl Pollak, Richmond, British Columbia
Sea Scouting in Canada at http://www.seascouts.ca/

[SECOND REPLY TO BEN]
x-no-archive: yes
(ben) wrote:

It is mentioned in a recent post from Brian Grimley:
"Knot for closing a trawlnet - revisited".

Sorry Ben, I only read this group superficially. There is some
usefull
stuff in here on occassion, but when I have somebody telling me that
a
bowline is not a good knot and might not stand up to heavy use, I
have to
shake my head in sadness and move on.

If somebody wants to improve on one of the most common knots, one
that has
been used by millions for the last coupld of hundred years, be my
guest.

The release mechanism of these systems should only be
set for the last person down -- the most experienced person in the
group. All other members of the group should rappel on a fixed
rope."

I have used the word rappel rather losely, lest someone get the image
of
little Boy Scouts dangling off a rock face hundreds of meters in the
air.

I would rappel on it myself, with reserve...
and I rappeled with scouts (and others) with proper gear and
rigging,
since rappelling is great for many reasons (this is dangerous
enough,

I get the feeling that while seem to be talking about mountaineering,
I'm
talking more about cross country hiking in rough terrain.

I think the problem is partly knotting techniques (forget about the
highwayman's hitch ) and partly (staying out of) circumstances.

Please explain.
I know that any knot can fail, especially if it is improperly tied,
used
for the improper function or on impproper rope. I suppose you could
hang
someone on a fisherman's knot if you don't know how to make a proper
hangman's noose, but it might get a tad messy, unpleasant for the
star
performer and terribly long for the audience to wait for the finale.

YiS,

--
Karl Pollak, Richmond, British Columbia
Sea Scouting in Canada at http://www.seascouts.ca/

DO NOT USE THE HIGHWAYMAN'S HITCH.

(Roo2, you should not shy from this warning!)


I didn't realize I was shying from this warning. That's why I said,
"please don't use it for anything but entertainment" and is why I told
Karl to find a different hitch and why I bothered to cut and paste the
discussion to Google groups.

I hope Karl can do the math that a hitch that is liable to slip as a
rappelling anchor = death or serious injury.

I'm glad that you chimed in. I wouldn't want Karl to think I'm the
lone critic of the Highwayman's hitch.

-roo

(roo) wrote in message om...
[2nd followup]

...
the most part, we've used it to rappel down a slope and release the rope
from the hitch when we've reached the bottom.

...
I'm talking more about cross country hiking in rough terrain.

...
Please explain.
...
Karl Pollak, Richmond, British Columbia


hi karl,

your initial question was: "any alternatives"?

yes:

http://www.traditionalmountaineering...Dulfersitz.htm

no knot involved
(OK, two: one at the end of the rope and one self-belay prussic ;~)
not confortable
(so it restricts use itself)

knot wise,

ben

(hi roo, thanks for recovering this thread)

"Karl Pollak" wrote:

Well, I guess it would depend on what you consider "critical
purpose". For the most part, we've used it to rappel down a
slope [snip]

Erm, that certainly sounds like a "critical purpose" to me.


If 12 year old boys (with about 15 minutes of instruction) can
tie it properly so that it will safely hold their weight - and
mine - I would say the hitch is pretty safe when tied correctly.

"Pretty safe"? Is that safe enough? Would any experienced climber think so?
Would any parent of one of those scouts think so?


I've had about 6 different groups of boys tie it in the middle
of the night and it never happened. How they tied it, that's how
it stayed until they yanked on the working end to realease it at
the bottom of the ravine.

That's a great sample size, Karl.


Don't just take my word on it.

OK, I won't.

Good.

Imagine the abseiler individual grabs the wrong strand initially. Oops.
Gone. And gone with your rope, too. Now how are you going to get down? (cf.
JC Lafaille).

Imagine the abseiler accidentally gets caught in the release strand. Oops.
Gone.

As others have side, it might just slip. No second chance. Oops. Gone.


OK, I'm open to suggestions.

Don't use this knot for setting up rappels. Don't teach this knot. Go and
get some instruction.

One thing that you don't seem to have considered is that no matter how safe
you consider this knot, and how controlled your environment might be, you
have now given a bunch of kids the idea that they "know how to set up a
rappel". Sure, you can't stop them swinging from the garage roof with mum's
clothes line, but you could at least provide them with some elements of
truth and best practice. The idea that the HH is a suitable knot for a
rappel rope is neither of these.


The task is to rappel down a wall of a steep ravine or cliff,
when you have reached the bottom, you recover your rope and
take it with you to your next obstacle.

What would you suggest I use for it?

I strongly suggest that you go and get some instruction. I thought that
scouting organisations were really strict about qualifications?

Martin.