I just picked up some silver solder paste.....

and I noticed something very peculiar about this stuff. It looks and
smells EXACTLY like 'high end' silver thermal paste for CPU's !! Has
anyone else noticed this ?

I haven't yet used the stuff to 'actually solder' yet but I'm looking
forward to trying it out. Does anyone have a preference to the types
of solder they use for joining COPPER and SILVER (both fine and
sterling) ?

I also grabbed some Hard, medium and soft 'sheet solder' but it would
seem to me that it would be much more difficult to use than the silver
'PASTE'. Of course, I'm speaking strickly as a beginner when it comes
to joining these various metals.... Am I wrong in this assumption ?

Cheers,

/FC

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 23:43:44 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Jman
wrote:

and I noticed something very peculiar about this stuff. It looks and
smells EXACTLY like 'high end' silver thermal paste for CPU's !! Has
anyone else noticed this ?

Nope. But then I don't deal with CPU heatsinks all that much...
But I suspect that what you're calling silver solder paste is not the same
material at all, as your sheet solder. Most electronics are not comfortable
at temperatures where things are glowing red from the heat (over 1000F). Most
electronics "solders" are traditionally, mixes of tin and lead. Higher
performance solders in these same temperature ranges, (around 400 degrees F,
some lower, some higher, but in that "soldering iron" range) may be made without
lead, being mostly tin. A common mix is with tin and a bit of silver, which
gives the solder a bit more strength, resistance to corrosion, and perhaps
better thermal conductivity (a guess, not something I know for sure). These low
temperature solders are often sold as "silver solder" or more properly, "silver
bearing solder", but they are not at all the same sort of thing your local
silversmith will be using to put jewelry together in most cases.

In part, this confusion is because jewelers call alloys "solders" which are
higher temperature melting mixes of the gold or silver being soldered, along
with just enough other metals (copper, zinc, etc) to lower the melting point a
bit below that of the silver or gold being joined. This is what's confusing,
because this type of joining with higher temperature melting alloys is what is
referred to by pretty much all other industries, as "brazing", rather than
soldering. Those other industries, including electronics, reserve the word
"soldering" to talk about joining with those low temperature tin/lead and
releated alloys, including tin/silver solders.

Your sheet solders are silver brazing alloys, what jewelers will be calling
silver solder, and are used with additional borax based fluxs to join silver
parts, as well as other metals needing higher temperature, higher strength
joins. Copper and silver can be joined with these alloys. Their use generally
needs a heat source like a torch flame of some sort, unlike the lower
temperature tin/lead solders, which are usually melted with soldering irons,
(though furnaces, and small torches can also be used in some situations)

There ARE higher temperature silver solders, like your sheet solders, that are
powdered, mixed with binders and a borax or similar flux, and sold as paste
solder, so I cannot be certain exactly which type of paste solder you have
(though these don't usually smell like the low temperature rosin or acid based
fluxes found in low temp paste solders). If your material is like your CPU
heatsink stuff, and melts somewhere arounds 400 F, then it's the tin/silver mix
often called "silver solder" in hardware stores. If, on the other hand, it's
got a melting point above 1000F, then it's a true silver alloy, a jewelers
silver solder. If that is the case, even though it may look like those CPU
heatsink pastes, it is not the same at all.

The jewelers versions of the paste solders may seem easier to use, but whether
that's the case depends a lot on how you're using it. With a torch, using
proper soldering flux, many people find sheet solder, which one cuts into tiny
snippets called paillons, and places just where needed, to work better than the
paste solders, in terms both of ease of use and resulting neatness of the
joints. The sheet solder form is the traditional way jewelers buy solder
(though silversmiths often also buy silver solder in wire form, useful when
working on larger items). It's cheaper to buy too, and it's shelf life in that
form is indefinate. Paste solders can dry out, or the binders and fluxes become
no longer as good. Paste solder, though, can be very useful in some types of
work, especially repair, chain repair, or when using a furnace setup to melt the
solder. Most paste solders are formulated pretty much for use in a controlled
atmosphere soldering furnace, but are usable with a torch as well. Personally,
I never have liked them much, but I know people who do, and find them easy to
use. Try them both, and make up your own mind. But first, figure out just what
you've got. The low temperature tin/silver solders can be used on silver, or
other similar metals, but the joints lack the strength of a proper solder joint,
have the wrong color, and are generally considered acceptable only when the
piece being joined cannot take the heat required to do the job with proper
silver brazing alloys. Usually this means they're relegated to repair work.
Note as well that once a piece has been soldered with the low temperature stuff,
it cannot then be heated more to use real silver solder, since at higher
temperatures, the low temp stuff burns into the silver causing significant
damage. So if you use the low temp solders, and then decide to do the job right
with higher temp solders, it's necessary to completely remove all traces of the
prior low temp solder, which is not always so easy to do.

Hope that helps.

Peter

"Jman" wrote in message
...
and I noticed something very peculiar about this stuff. It looks and
smells EXACTLY like 'high end' silver thermal paste for CPU's !! Has
anyone else noticed this ?

I haven't yet used the stuff to 'actually solder' yet but I'm looking
forward to trying it out. Does anyone have a preference to the types
of solder they use for joining COPPER and SILVER (both fine and
sterling) ?

I also grabbed some Hard, medium and soft 'sheet solder' but it would
seem to me that it would be much more difficult to use than the silver
'PASTE'. Of course, I'm speaking strickly as a beginner when it comes
to joining these various metals.... Am I wrong in this assumption ?

You can buy a silver solder paste in hallmarking grade. It comes in a
syringe and costs a small fortune and is usually only available in 'easy'
grade

However, most stuff sold as 'silver solder' is for the electronics industry
and is only about 5% silver and has enough lead in it to destroy anything
made of silver you try to join with it.

Please make sure that what you've got is the stuff designed for making
jewellery...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

On Feb 29, 1:10=A0am, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 23:43:44 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Jman

wrote:
and I noticed something very peculiar about this stuff. =A0It looks and
smells EXACTLY like 'high end' silver thermal paste for CPU's !! =A0Has
anyone else noticed this ?

Nope. =A0But then I don't deal with CPU heatsinks all that much...
But I suspect that what you're calling silver solder paste is not the same=

material at all, as your sheet solder. =A0 =A0Most electronics are not com=
fortable
at temperatures where things are glowing red from the heat (over 1000F). =
=A0Most
electronics "solders" are traditionally, mixes of tin and lead. =A0Higher
performance solders in these same temperature ranges, (around 400 degrees =
F,
some lower, some higher, but in that "soldering iron" range) may be made w=
ithout
lead, being mostly tin. =A0A common mix is with tin and a bit of silver, w=
hich
gives the solder a bit more strength, resistance to corrosion, and perhaps=

better thermal conductivity (a guess, not something I know for sure). =A0T=
hese low
temperature solders are often sold as "silver solder" or more properly, "s=
ilver
bearing solder", but they are not at all the same sort of thing your local=

silversmith will be using to put jewelry together in most cases.

In part, this confusion is because jewelers call alloys "solders" which ar=
e
higher temperature melting mixes of the gold or silver being soldered, alo=
ng
with just enough other metals (copper, zinc, etc) to lower the melting poi=
nt a
bit below that of the silver or gold being joined. =A0 This is what's conf=
using,
because this type of joining with higher temperature melting alloys is wha=
t is
referred to by pretty much all other industries, as "brazing", rather than=

soldering. =A0Those other industries, including electronics, reserve the w=
ord
"soldering" to talk about joining with those low temperature tin/lead and
releated alloys, including tin/silver solders.

Your sheet solders are silver brazing alloys, what jewelers will be callin=
g
silver solder, and are used with additional borax based fluxs to join silv=
er
parts, as well as other metals needing higher temperature, higher strength=

joins. =A0Copper and silver can be joined with these alloys. =A0Their use =
generally
needs a heat source like a torch flame of some sort, unlike the lower
temperature tin/lead solders, which are usually melted with soldering iron=
s,
(though furnaces, and small torches can also be used in some situations)

There ARE higher temperature silver solders, like your sheet solders, that=
are
powdered, mixed with binders and a borax or similar flux, and sold as past=
e
solder, so I cannot be certain exactly which type of paste solder you have=

(though these don't usually smell like the low temperature rosin or acid b=
ased
fluxes found in low temp paste solders). =A0If your material is like your =
CPU
heatsink stuff, and melts somewhere arounds 400 F, then it's the tin/silve=
r mix
often called "silver solder" in hardware stores. =A0 =A0If, on the other h=
and, it's
got a melting point above 1000F, then it's a true silver alloy, a jewelers=

silver solder. =A0If that is the case, even though it may look like those =
CPU
heatsink pastes, it is not the same at all.

The jewelers versions of the paste solders may seem easier to use, but whe=
ther
that's the case depends a lot on how you're using it. =A0With a torch, usi=
ng
proper soldering flux, many people find sheet solder, which one cuts into =
tiny
snippets called paillons, and places just where needed, to work better tha=
n the
paste solders, in terms both of ease of use and resulting neatness of the
joints. =A0 The sheet solder form is the traditional way jewelers buy sold=
er
(though silversmiths often also buy silver solder in wire form, useful whe=
n
working on larger items). =A0It's cheaper to buy too, and it's shelf life =
in that
form is indefinate. =A0Paste solders can dry out, or the binders and fluxe=
s become
no longer as good. =A0 Paste solder, though, can be very useful in some ty=
pes of
work, especially repair, chain repair, or when using a furnace setup to me=
lt the
solder. =A0Most paste solders are formulated pretty much for use in a cont=
rolled
atmosphere soldering furnace, but are usable with a torch as well. =A0 Per=
sonally,
I never have liked them much, but I know people who do, and find them easy=
to
use. =A0Try them both, and make up your own mind. =A0But first, figure out=
just what
you've got. =A0 The low temperature tin/silver solders can be used on silv=
er, or
other similar metals, but the joints lack the strength of a proper solder =
joint,
have the wrong color, and are generally considered acceptable only when th=
e
piece being joined cannot take the heat required to do the job with proper=

silver brazing alloys. =A0Usually this means they're relegated to repair w=
ork.
Note as well that once a piece has been soldered with the low temperature =
stuff,
it cannot then be heated more to use real silver solder, since at higher
temperatures, the low temp stuff burns into the silver causing significant=

damage. =A0So if you use the low temp solders, and then decide to do the j=
ob right
with higher temp solders, it's necessary to completely remove all traces o=
f the
prior low temp solder, which is not always so easy to do.

Hope that helps.

Peter

Hey Peter,

Great reply, Thanks..

The solder paste I picked up is in fact the jewellers 'soft solder'
with a flow point of 1230 degrees. I squeezed a bit out and was
amazed to find that the consistency, smell, color, etc is virtually
identical to the "Arctic 5 Silver heat sink paste ( http://www.arcticsilver.=
com/as5.htm"
) that I use to build systems with..... The "Arctic 5" is 99.9%
silver particles with some type of binder and it of course works great
at transferring heat from the CPU to the Heatsink. For curiosity
sake, I think I'm going to have to light up the torch and melt some of
the Arctic 5 to see if turns into silver ! Perhaps I'll post some
photos of the mess I make....

Anyway, I've got a big box of borax that I've used for my bronze
brazing rod.... Will that work with the Silver Paste and the other
silver solders ? I also have a bunch of low fume bronze rod flux (I
normally scrape about 75% off before brazing anything...) that I can
use as well. The only problem I see is that all of it is in powder
form.... Is it possible to make a paste with it, or should I just go
by some borax flux past instead ? Any suggestions as to brand or
type ?

Thanks again,

/FC

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:51:05 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Jman
wrote:

Hey Peter,

Great reply, Thanks..

The solder paste I picked up is in fact the jewellers 'soft solder'
with a flow point of 1230 degrees. I squeezed a bit out and was
amazed to find that the consistency, smell, color, etc is virtually
identical to the "Arctic 5 Silver heat sink paste ( http://www.arcticsilver.=
com/as5.htm"
) that I use to build systems with..... The "Arctic 5" is 99.9%
silver particles with some type of binder and it of course works great
at transferring heat from the CPU to the Heatsink. For curiosity
sake, I think I'm going to have to light up the torch and melt some of
the Arctic 5 to see if turns into silver ! Perhaps I'll post some
photos of the mess I make....

Silver, of course, doesn't have a smell, and the materials in a paste solder
that are the fluxing agents, likely wouldn't either. So likely, the smell would
be the binders, which are often various organic based glues, gums, or the like.
If the same type of binders are used in the two products, then the look and
smell etc would be similar. But I'll bet they are not the same. Among other
things, a heat sink paste would not need any fluxing agents, just the binder,
and there might need to be more of it, since it would want to be a permanent
part of the compound after application. Also, fine silver is a better heat sink
than are the copper and zinc bearing silver solders, such as your easy solder.
In a paste form, they'd look the same, but the melting behavior would be wildly
different. Of course, it's always possible your heat sink stuff is just a
relabeled solder paste that someone found works well enough as to not need to
formulate a specific new product, but I doubt it, since the heat sink market
might easily be larger than the paste solder one. My guess is that your arctic
5 is pure silver, with just an organic binder.


Anyway, I've got a big box of borax that I've used for my bronze
brazing rod.... Will that work with the Silver Paste and the other
silver solders ?

Sure, though the paste solder does not need additional flux.

With the other solders, mix a bit of the borax powder with some water to get a
paste. This makes only a so-so moderately active flux. It works, but not as
well as the commercially available mixtures that also, in addition to borax or
boric acid, include more active fluxing agents. Overall, you'll have an easier
time soldering with the commercially sold soldering fluxes. They may be based
on borax, but there's more to them than just that.

I also have a bunch of low fume bronze rod flux (I
normally scrape about 75% off before brazing anything...) that I can
use as well. The only problem I see is that all of it is in powder
form.... Is it possible to make a paste with it, or should I just go
by some borax flux past instead ? Any suggestions as to brand or
type ?


Water mixed with the powders would make a paste. Or use it dry, but the paste
form is easier to place. However, it's usually best to use a flux that's
matched to the purpose. Your bronze brazing rod may have different temperature
or other requirements, and it's flux coating may not be the best for silver
soldering. Only way to tell that would be to try it. But personally, I'd say
just go buy some commercial flux. It's not that costly, and the better results
will save you time and annoyance.

The two main divisions on type of flux are those that are actively flouride
containing, which need to be used with ventillation, and those that are not.
"Handy" flux, made by Handy and Harmon, is offered in several versions, the
normal white paste flux is a flouride bearing (I think) formula good for silver
soldering. There are a wide number of other brands, often more specifically
marketed though jewelers supply houses. The liquid "self pickling" fluxes such
as Batterns are more aimed for gold soldering, but work with silver too, though
you'll get some oxidation with them.

Or make your own. A popular silversmithing home brew recipe that can avoid
problems with fire scale and fire stain on silver is called Prips flux. A mix
of boric acid, borax, and trisodium phosphate (TSP), it is dissolved in water
and sprayed on the somewhat preheated metal so it forms a thin white film.
Solder is then place and soldering is done. The flux coating not only allows
solder flow, but avoids the oxidation problems. Let me know if you want the
full details on this mix, or you can buy it already formulated.

cheers

Peter Rowe

Thanks again,

/FC

Jman wrote:


I also grabbed some Hard, medium and soft 'sheet solder' but it would
seem to me that it would be much more difficult to use than the silver
'PASTE'.

Not true.

Of course, I'm speaking strickly as a beginner when it comes
to joining these various metals.... Am I wrong in this assumption ?

Yes.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

On Feb 29, 10:07=A0am, Abrasha wrote:
Jman wrote:

I also grabbed some Hard, medium and soft 'sheet solder' but it would
seem to me that it would be much more difficult to use than the silver
'PASTE'. =A0

Not true.

Of course, I'm speaking strickly as a beginner when it comes
to joining these various metals.... =A0Am I wrong in this assumption ?

Yes.

--
Abrashahttp://www.abrasha.com

Ok, thanks... Will check out the site too.

On Feb 29, 10:06=A0am, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrote:
On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:51:05 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Jman





wrote:
Hey Peter,

Great reply, Thanks..

The solder paste I picked up is in fact the jewellers 'soft solder'
with a flow point of 1230 degrees. =A0I squeezed a bit out and was
amazed to find that the consistency, smell, color, etc is virtually
identical to the "Arctic 5 Silver heat sink paste (http://www.arcticsilv=
er.=3D
com/as5.htm"
) that I use to build systems with..... =A0The "Arctic 5" is 99.9%
silver particles with some type of binder and it of course works great
at transferring heat from the CPU to the Heatsink. =A0For curiosity
sake, I think I'm going to have to light up the torch and melt some of
the Arctic 5 to see if turns into silver ! =A0Perhaps I'll post some
photos of the mess I make....

Silver, of course, doesn't have a smell, and the materials in a paste sold=
er
that are the fluxing agents, likely wouldn't either. =A0So likely, the sme=
ll would
be the binders, which are often various organic based glues, gums, or the =
like.
If the same type of binders are used in the two products, then the look an=
d
smell etc would be similar. =A0But I'll bet they are not the same. =A0Amon=
g other
things, a heat sink paste would not need any fluxing agents, just the bind=
er,
and there might need to be more of it, since it would want to be a permane=
nt
part of the compound after application. =A0Also, fine silver is a better h=
eat sink
than are the copper and zinc bearing silver solders, such as your easy sol=
der.
In a paste form, they'd look the same, but the melting behavior would be w=
ildly
different. =A0 Of course, it's always possible your heat sink stuff is jus=
t a
relabeled solder paste that someone found works well enough as to not need=
to
formulate a specific new product, but I doubt it, since the heat sink mark=
et
might easily be larger than the paste solder one. =A0My guess is that your=
arctic
5 is pure silver, with just an organic binder.



Anyway, I've got a big box of borax that I've used for my bronze
brazing rod.... =A0Will that work with the Silver Paste and the other
silver solders ?

Sure, though the paste solder does not need additional flux. =A0

With the other solders, mix a bit of the borax powder with some water to g=
et a
paste. =A0This makes only a so-so moderately active flux. =A0It works, but=
not as
well as the commercially available mixtures that also, in addition to bora=
x or
boric acid, include more active fluxing agents. =A0 Overall, you'll have a=
n easier
time soldering with the commercially sold soldering fluxes. =A0They may be=
based
on borax, but there's more to them than just that.

=A0I also have a bunch of low fume bronze rod flux (I
normally scrape about 75% off before brazing anything...) that I can
use as well. =A0The only problem I see is that all of it is in powder
form.... =A0Is it possible to make a paste with it, or should I just go
by some borax flux past instead ? =A0Any suggestions as to brand or
type ?

Water mixed with the powders would make a paste. =A0Or use it dry, but the=
paste
form is easier to place. =A0However, it's usually best to use a flux that'=
s
matched to the purpose. =A0Your bronze brazing rod may have different temp=
erature
or other requirements, and it's flux coating may not be the best for silve=
r
soldering. =A0Only way to tell that would be to try it. =A0But personally,=
I'd say
just go buy some commercial flux. =A0It's not that costly, and the better =
results
will save you time and annoyance.

The two main divisions on type of flux are those that are actively flourid=
e
containing, which need to be used with ventillation, and those that are no=
t.

On Feb 29, 9:50=A0am, "William Black"
wrote:
"Jman" wrote in message

...

and I noticed something very peculiar about this stuff. =A0It looks and
smells EXACTLY like 'high end' silver thermal paste for CPU's !! =A0Has
anyone else noticed this ?

I haven't yet used the stuff to 'actually solder' yet but I'm looking
forward to trying it out. =A0Does anyone have a preference to the types
of solder they use for joining COPPER and SILVER (both fine and
sterling) =A0?

I also grabbed some Hard, medium and soft 'sheet solder' but it would
seem to me that it would be much more difficult to use than the silver
'PASTE'. =A0Of course, I'm speaking strickly as a beginner when it comes=

to joining these various metals.... =A0Am I wrong in this assumption ?

You can buy a silver solder paste in hallmarking grade. =A0It comes in a
syringe and costs a small fortune and is usually only available in 'easy'
grade

However, most stuff sold as 'silver solder' is for the electronics industr=
y
and is only about 5% silver and has enough lead in it to destroy anything
made of silver you try to join with it.

Please make sure that what you've got is the stuff designed for making
jewellery...

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, =A0like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.



Hey there William,

The stuff I have is called "Pro-Craft" and it's Silver Solder Paste
with Flux.
Here's the link to the vendor, if interested....

http://www.grobetusa.com/ProductDesc...pasteflux.html

/FC

On Feb 29, 10:07=A0am, Abrasha wrote:
Jman wrote:

I also grabbed some Hard, medium and soft 'sheet solder' but it would
seem to me that it would be much more difficult to use than the silver
'PASTE'. =A0

Not true.

Of course, I'm speaking strickly as a beginner when it comes
to joining these various metals.... =A0Am I wrong in this assumption ?

Yes.

--
Abrashahttp://www.abrasha.com

Wow,

I was checking out your site.... Very impressive stuff ! You have
immense talent and the 'walkthrough' of how some of those pieces are
made was 'inspiring' ( to say the least...)
I bought some hard, medium and soft solders today, along with some
wire to braze with....

Cheers,

/FC