Sims..

) writes:

Sorry Jim, my answer now is what it was then. I refuse to be gagged
about a specific subject, child sexual abuse, to cater to a persons
(adult persons) tender feelings. There is never a right time in my
view to shut up and sweep it under the carpet.

Trish should have killfiled me if she found the talk repugnant, she
had the ability to do so, whereas I have great personal reasons to
argue the point forever.

I have people from a local newsgroup coming over next weekend for a
party. One of those people, a woman, has a severely retarded son aged
28. She was not going to bring him, even though I have a nice beach
he would enjoy, as she felt it puts a damper on other people. We are
now agreed, Kevin comes to the party and to hell with the other people
and their sensitive feelings. If they can't handle it, it is their
problem and manners apart, then they must leave.

Sheena


I am not quite sure why I am doing this, but let me try one more
time. I am not in favour of censorship, preventing people from discussing
what they like, discussing what people feel are important topics, etc.
etc. But in life, I know there are some people one just does not discuss
certain subjects with, because they feel so strongly about them. It is
classic cost/benefit analysis. It is better not to discuss some things
with some people; keeping friendship is far more important to trying to
put the world right.
With respect to Trish and pedophile priests, I know what the cost
was. We lost Trish. Whose fault it was, hers, etc. is utterly
irrelevant. But what was the benefit? Could you oblige my by giving some
sort of statement as to what benefit you, or anyone else, derived from the
discussion, and your opinion as to whether and why the benefit was really
worth the cost.
--
Jim Cripwell.
The gods do not subtract from the allotted span of one's life, any
time that is spent in stitching.
Adapted from a sign on The Cobb, Lyme Regis, England.

On 26 Jul 2003 19:34:37 GMT, (F.James Cripwell) wrote:

In principle, I agree with you. But there are always two sides to
every situation. The person who does not like what is going on can walk
away; the people who are causing the problem can exhibit good manners,
and not persist with the thread. I just hope that the majority of rctners
have the proper manners to realise, under some circumstances, that the
latter course is the more desirable. However, unfortunately, there are
some amongst us who dont seem to know what good manners are. I hope you
are not one of them.

Oh really? YOU are NOT one of them, so why would you hope that for anyone else?

On 26 Jul 2003 19:43:12 GMT, (F.James Cripwell) wrote:



Before I answer this, were you around during the Christina Roissin
debate? If you were, I suspect you would not have posted the above. If
you were not, then I suggest you find out what happened at that time.
Then it might be worthwhile going on with the discussion.
If what you are suggesting is that I should try getting over losing a
good friend's wonderful postings on rctn, then I find this difficult.
Further, with the way some people behave, others are going to leave in the
future. I persist in this business in the rather hopeless idea that maybe
the ones who cause all the problems will not hit the "send" button some time
in the future. and we will then not lose that friend. Maybe this is
hopeless, but I go on trying anyway.

Leave it to you to start a nice flamewar.

If a person is so offended by a thread or a person - then all they have to
do (as has been repeated ad nauseum, so this time I`ll shout, ) is DON`T
READ IT and /or KILLFILE THE PERSON WHO IS UPSETTING YOU!"

Caryn" wrote in message
...
agree with you Sheena, up to a point. It is one thing to
inadvertently give someone offence, without realizing that you are doing
anything wrong. It is an entirely different if someone is clearly
offended by a particular thread, makes it clear that they are offended,
and people still persist is pursuing the matter. That to me is just
plain rude and insensitive, however reasonable, important, just, etc.
people might think that the subject of the thread is.


Jim,

So, one person who is offended has the right to censor the rest of the
group if
they wish to discuss something that one person finds offensive?

I thought Canada also believed in free speech....perhaps I'm wrong?

Caryn
Blue Wizard Designs
http://hometown.aol.com/crzy4xst/index.html
Updated: 7/7/03 -- now available Dragon of the Stars
View WIPs at: http://community.webshots.com/user/carynlws (Caryn's UFO's)

It`s a shame that Mirjam doesn`t concentrate her "life-saving" efforts on
preventing Israelis from using their far more powerful weapons to over-react
every time a Palestinian bomb goes off. Of COURSE there are wrongs on both
sides, but if who is most wrong is measured by the numbers they killed,
Israelis are WAAAY ahead!

Pat P

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 05:47:26 GMT, (Mirjam
Bruck-Cohen) wrote:

Lucretia Burgia
You used this term , and if you complain that "People do not pay
attention to waht goes on in Africa", blame yourself , and your posts
and reactions to people like me who research our Murdered roots. And
who Insist on telling you that Using this kind of terminology, or
making fun of games that Kill , makes people less sensitive to the
suffering of real people , in fact it increases Asocial behaviours.
mirjam

Oh for goodness sake Mirjam you misquote! The term Human
it was used when you and PP talked about your pet animal kiling mice
or something else and than you used the word Human Exterminator and
even rolled your eyes to Heaven and `asked` if you are aloowed to use
it, Yes you are allowed to use it and i am allowed to tell you it
makes me SICK .
my recall, we are looking back nearly 40 years !
it is still a bad phrase ,
The Sim post referred to a room with no windows or doors but a
fireplace. I would like you to show me where it ever said anything
about gas !!
You know exactly what i meant and why i got upset.
While I have never made fun of all the people who perished in the WTC,
I have said that I find it over the top given stats like those of
Hiroshima, the death camps, WWI or WWII. I do not, cannot agree,that
it is the worlds single most terrible tragedy.
That is Just it you never made fun of the one too close to you [
afraid of people flaming you] But you think you can direspect the
meaning of others, you will never help work to eduacte against other
wars , killings and mass murders.
oday, that would
probably be Africa, to which nobody seems to want to pay attention.
And what do you do about Africa ,, every time you make fun about a
murderous term you help to Dehumanize people !!!!! you legitimize
murder , anihilating people. beacuse you make this Fun words , joke
words. You are so outspoken about child abuse , because it touched
your life , maybe it is time those computer games will show some child
abuse , how willyou feel than??????
l I am the sole surviver of many Mass murdered people ao i am
outspoken about it , and i participate in groups who believe we should
try and prevent it from happening again.
mirjam


Mirjam, I can't sort all this jumble out I'm afraid. I have taken a
look trying to find where I used the term "human exterminator" but
cannot find it, most likely because I am certain I did not.

The term exterminator was used (once again) in connection with Daleks
from a television programme. Human Exterminator is an awkward phrase
and does not make sense in any context in which we were speaking.

Please find the post you are referring to in which I used that term,
if you can, then I shall apologize and say yes, it was lacking in
taste, given your sensibilities.

Pat did ask me how my cat was doing, and we probably both made
reference to the fact that he partially killed a mouse and scared the
beejesus out of my houseguest-from-hell who has never been heard of
since. I think of him as killing/murdering mice, or being a
mouser,but not as exterminating them, if only because he hasn't, more
of them come into the house on a regular basis.

Sheena

F.James Cripwell wrote:
" With respect to Trish and pedophile priests, I know what the cost
was. We lost Trish. Whose fault it was, hers, etc. is utterly
irrelevant. But what was the benefit? Could you oblige my by giving
some sort of statement as to what benefit you, or anyone else, derived
from the discussion, and your opinion as to whether and why the benefit
was really worth the cost."

It is "personal" responsibility. I'm not responsible for Trish's
feelings, or how she handles them. She is. That is basic psychology.

It really comes down to censorship and the whims of any single individual.

Even in the discussion of needlework, some of these topics can get
pretty heated.

So, where does the cost/benefit ratio become an issue? It doesn't. You
glean from discussion what you want and discard the rest. If it's too
painful, you walk away. If you feel like fighting back in defense of
your position, you do it - although hammering people over the head with
it never does any good. I'm guilty, at times. I try to remember not to.

Yes, I try to treat people fairly, without attacking them personally. I
would rather defend an "idea" than to offend an individual. I will
fight to the figurative death for anyone who has been personally
attacked. I've been the recipient of such attacks and it goes beyond
the pale. Anyone who does that here (or anywhere else) should be
ignored, at least for a time.

But it is (and was) my personal responbility how I handle such attacks.

Regarding issues, one can argue that arguing over them doesn't help . .
.. but sometimes it does. You never know who is lurking, reading,
learning. Maybe the cost/benefit ratio lies therein. Who is to judge
what someone learns from these conversations - often in a very positive way?

Dianne - who wonders if this makes her a liberal or still a centrist?

animaux wrote:

However, since we're exercising our freedom of speech, I think you are a
[snipped]. I actually, through the cyber walls of Earth, feel [snipped} whenever I see
a post from you. You are also a [snipped] and [snipped].

I think this goes "over the line", Victoria. That's personal. Attack
the idea, not the person. You might feel this way, and you're
entitlted, but this isn't a room full of our closest friends with which
we feel whatever we say is "confidential" and harmless.

You went on to say a few more things I don't think are fair. I snipped
the rest. Let's keep this civil.

Dianne

I think, Diane, that has been the basis of most of the unpleasant wars on
this group, and most probably many other groups as well. Someone in the heat
of the moment, fires off their immediate thoughts; then others take the
pros or cons of that "zinger", and it escalated from there. This is where
the really nasty personal hurts come in. We aren't all thick-skinned; some
feel slights more than others. Disagreement is fine, but personal pummelling
isn't it. I have been responsible for a few nasty comments; however I am a
slow typist (I type with two fingers each hand), and have to read over what
I just typed before sending it. I have deleted a lot of posts after I have
done this!

You can have a discussion, and still keep it within the limits of civility
and courtesy.

I also marked this OT, simply because that has been a tad overlooked
recently, VBG.

Gillian

"Dianne Lewandowski" wrote in message
...
animaux wrote:

However, since we're exercising our freedom of speech, I think you are a
[snipped]. I actually, through the cyber walls of Earth, feel [snipped}
whenever I see
a post from you. You are also a [snipped] and [snipped].

I think this goes "over the line", Victoria. That's personal. Attack
the idea, not the person. You might feel this way, and you're
entitlted, but this isn't a room full of our closest friends with which
we feel whatever we say is "confidential" and harmless.

You went on to say a few more things I don't think are fair. I snipped
the rest. Let's keep this civil.

Dianne

animaux wrote:

However, since we're exercising our freedom of speech, I think you are a
[snipped]. I actually, through the cyber walls of Earth, feel [snipped}
whenever I see
a post from you. You are also a [snipped] and [snipped].

I think this goes "over the line", Victoria. That's personal. Attack
the idea, not the person. You might feel this way, and you're
entitlted, but this isn't a room full of our closest friends with which
we feel whatever we say is "confidential" and harmless.

You went on to say a few more things I don't think are fair. I snipped
the rest. Let's keep this civil.

Dianne

I agree with Dianne 100%. This post was much too personal and should have been
taken to email. My mother would have called it, "the height of ill manners"
and I would have to agree with her. Personal attacks tend to reflect more on
the sender than the receiver. Please, can't we all get along and be more
thoughtful of others???? A suggestion, write what you(collectively) feel about
a situation but try to keep the vitriol and personal defamation to a minimum if
unable to restrain yourself.

Eleanor the Elder

Oh, but Pat, you can't use the term "killfile". You-know-who might get
offended. (tongue in cheek)

Meredith

Pat Porter wrote:

If a person is so offended by a thread or a person - then all they have to
do (as has been repeated ad nauseum, so this time I`ll shout, ) is DON`T
READ IT and /or KILLFILE THE PERSON WHO IS UPSETTING YOU!"

Caryn" wrote in message
...
agree with you Sheena, up to a point. It is one thing to
inadvertently give someone offence, without realizing that you are doing
anything wrong. It is an entirely different if someone is clearly
offended by a particular thread, makes it clear that they are offended,
and people still persist is pursuing the matter. That to me is just
plain rude and insensitive, however reasonable, important, just, etc.
people might think that the subject of the thread is.


Jim,

So, one person who is offended has the right to censor the rest of the
group if
they wish to discuss something that one person finds offensive?

I thought Canada also believed in free speech....perhaps I'm wrong?

Caryn
Blue Wizard Designs
http://hometown.aol.com/crzy4xst/index.html
Updated: 7/7/03 -- now available Dragon of the Stars
View WIPs at: http://community.webshots.com/user/carynlws (Caryn's UFO's)