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#11
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I dislike rigid definitions; I feel they are constricting and often send
the wrong messages. There is no need to pigeon-hole anything to do with Art-Craft, they are inseparable. If a piece of work *speaks* to me, that is what matters, not how it was made, whether it is a pot, a painting, a bridge, a building, or whatever. That it provokes a favourable reaction in me is what matters. Steve Bath UK In article , A & V writes Snip But that is just the thing, I don't get the message from the article that he thinks that craft is inferior, he is just stating that they are not the same. Snip -- Steve Mills Bath UK |
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#12
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Well, I guess that if we are to discuss things we have to use some sort of
common vocabulary. Andrea "Steve Mills" wrote in message ... I dislike rigid definitions; I feel they are constricting and often send the wrong messages. There is no need to pigeon-hole anything to do with Art-Craft, they are inseparable. If a piece of work *speaks* to me, that is what matters, not how it was made, whether it is a pot, a painting, a bridge, a building, or whatever. That it provokes a favourable reaction in me is what matters. Steve Bath UK In article , A & V writes Snip But that is just the thing, I don't get the message from the article that he thinks that craft is inferior, he is just stating that they are not the same. Snip -- Steve Mills Bath UK |
#13
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I like discussions that have enough controversy to force one into thinking
about an issue. This is one of those. I am a potter that loves the entire process of potting - from recycling clay to analyzing glazes and everything in between. I had one of my pots in the MET as part of an Asian flower arrangement. I suppose you could consider that 'art'. I don't know and I don't really care. I do the work because I love it from top to bottom. It gives me pleasure when someone else is able to appreciate what my minds eye sees in something I have created in the same way that I get pleasure when someone admires my children. They are what I have put myself into and egos like to be massaged on occasion. I still stand by my statement that 'art' is anything that someone has created with the intent of arousing an emotion no matter what that emotion is. Whether it is successful 'art' or not is entirely dependent on the audience. I suppose I could convince myself that any artifact that generates an emotion becomes 'art' whether it was intended as such or not. I have seen horribly crafted beginners pieces sell at our pottery sales and the buyer almost always exclaims how much they love how handmade it looks. MOMA has a display of furniture, appliances and all sorts of other man made objects from earlier periods that are now treated as 'art' (really fun display if you get to NYC). These are artifacts that no longer really have function but still hold the beauty of their design and elicit emotions connected with associations with the period they represent. As I first stated - you can have art without the skill of the craft, you can have the skill of the craft without it being considered art (at least in the current time frame), you can have the skill of the craft and all the features of art or, the worse cell of the design. - have neither the skill of the craft or any qualities that you could name as art. If you have the skill of the craft, I would claim that at some time, with some audience you will have art. Women's quilts of previous generations were not considered 'art' in most part because it was simply women's work and a craft. It is now treated as valued 'art'. The author states 'It is all these things combined that make art exciting'. What underlies that statement is "for me". These are subjective things. But what made the article raise my hackles was its form and the opening statement "I see the craft world as a kind of lagoon and the art world in general as the ocean. Some artists shelter in this lagoon, because their imagination isn't robust enough to go out into the wider sea." I find no way to not see that as an offensive insult. I am enjoying the debate however that it has generated Donna "A & V" wrote in message ... But that is just the thing, I don't get the message from the article that he thinks that craft is inferior, he is just stating that they are not the same. ..."But craft isn't just a synonym for the hand-made. It is about technical skill but there must be a good idea guiding it, either traditional or innovative. I love craft objects to look at, but for me the best thing is a combination of its meaning, its beauty and its craftsmanship. It is all these things combined that make art exciting The essential distinction between art and craft is that art has an emphasis on feelings and ideas and the crafts have an emphasis on technique."... So I guess that he is trying to define terms art and craft. That is an old, old debate. How would you define them?? I personally start having problems when "design" is distilled out as separate from both art and craft. I think that "design" can't stand by itself, but "craft" can. An object can be "craft" without being "art" and vice versa. What we are ultimately looking for are those which are both.. In my opinion Art is something we strive for when creating, jet it only seldom happens. Not every painting is "ART" most of them are just paintings -"craft" (if that!). I don't think that pots are craft and paintings art, yet I found that quite often people refer to them in those terms. I guess that part of the debate is purely linguistic, but language is changing as well as our use of it and we sometimes need to define (perhaps redefine) terms we use. I often struggle when describing my work. Mostly I don"t make pots or sculptures in traditional sense, yet often I still call them "pots" for the lack of a better word. I hope my opinions don't offend, I think that we are all on the same side. I am sad too about the changes in education, but perhaps redefining can help. If ceramics is not studied as craft is it coming back as art or as design, or perhaps as design for industry. Clay will surface somewhere! Actually, WA school of art and design where I studied ceramics has changed the name of the courses to include the word "craft" ( I can't remember exact wording) - yet at the same time they had cut curriculum in half and almost eliminated glaze technology. Now I know how the knowledge can die out. But that has happened all through history I believe... look at the old roman (or was it Greek?) pots which were decorated only with slip - I don't think it is repeatable today. Sorry for all the rumblings. Hope to hear your opinion Andrea "dkat" wrote in message ... Perhaps I had such a negative response to it because I have seen crafts being eliminated from our schools because of the attitude displayed in this article. The arts departments in our University will not even allow functional pieces to be created in the ceramics classes - all you see coming out of that department are what I consider 'gag me with a spoon' sculptures. If you look at Picasso's work when he started out, it was beautiful classical drawings. Even if you do want to move into the abstract and the whimsical you should at least have a sense of the history of the working of clay and be able to create the 'classical' pieces. I think you should understand the fundamentals of what goes into glazes and what makes them melt, gives them color, etc. but I don't declare what makes one form of creation superior to another form of creation. I tend to be somewhat hostile to anyone that builds their own ego up by declaring how others are inferior. "A & V" wrote in message ... I Have just read the article - thanks Annemarie - and I am surprised at some peoples reaction. I dont find the article derogarotive. Why such hostile reaction to what it says? So, I went over it again and I tend to agree with most things he says. Actualy, almost all of it. Actualy, I cant find anything that I strongly disagree with. He touched lots of aspects of art/craft in a very brief way here... skimed the surface of many (perhaps painful )issues. I would like to read more and in depth opinions. As soon as I get some ink for my ever hungry printer, I will print the article ant stick it on the wall in the studio to remind me who I am and where I want to be. Thanks again Annemarie!! Andrea "Lee In Mashiko, Japan" wrote in message ups.com... What if they had to have yard sales to pay for war? You can judge a society by what it spends its money on. -- ? Lee Love ? ??? ?? ? in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org http://hankos.blogspot.com/ Visual Bookmarks http://ikiru.blogspot.com/ Zen and Craft "With Humans it's what's here (he points to his heart) that makes the difference. If you don't have it in the heart, nothing you make will make a difference." ~~Bernard Leach~~ (As told to Dean Schwarz) |
#14
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I forgot to add - While Grayson Perry's work is not at all to my taste, I
would not question his ability as an artist. His work is highly skilled, dramatic and it without question generates emotions. DK "A & V" wrote in message ... Well, I guess that if we are to discuss things we have to use some sort of common vocabulary. Andrea "Steve Mills" wrote in message ... I dislike rigid definitions; I feel they are constricting and often send the wrong messages. There is no need to pigeon-hole anything to do with Art-Craft, they are inseparable. If a piece of work *speaks* to me, that is what matters, not how it was made, whether it is a pot, a painting, a bridge, a building, or whatever. That it provokes a favourable reaction in me is what matters. Steve Bath UK In article , A & V writes Snip But that is just the thing, I don't get the message from the article that he thinks that craft is inferior, he is just stating that they are not the same. Snip -- Steve Mills Bath UK |
#15
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Hi Donna,
I totaly agree with you, so it is hard to "debate", but as I'm also enjoying it ...here I am again. I have recently atended a series of busines workshops for art/craft practitioners. Speakers were mostly from business management world. I think that the idea is to give us dreamers some business sense ( you have a great product, but how can you make money marketing it...all very trendy buzz words) athough I agree that if we are to have income from what we do we need at least some basic business sense, I observed that those who embraced the ideas the most have (in my opinion) losst their "art". My fellow clay artist (my title, I don't know if she would agree with it) who used to do intricately painted bowls, textured teapots and thought provoking sulptural bowls is now making slipcast vases with stamped decoration (How many hours of work in each piece, how to cut hours down, how to save on glazes). While she was making pieces from the hart, they were great, now she "can't afford" to experiment, to try new things... she feels she has to play it safe. So when Grayson talks about a lagoon, he strikes a cord with how I feel about what is happening to my friend.The worst thing is that a lot of practitioners attended the workshops and are now keeping each other comfortable within the proces. I hope that she will figure out what is happening and bounce back. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that it is wrong to market our products, or to have busines plan, or to make profit. But it is wrong to call that art. Those pieces are missing soul. Of course, I am generalizing. Some of those pieces will have soul too ( as grayson points out - generaly as a mistake). And I don't think that something needs to be unique to be art... but.... It is a bit like McDonalds calling itself a restaurant. (which they DO and nobody is challenging it!) Does that make any sense? I find it hard to put it in the words. Andrea "DKat" wrote in message ... I like discussions that have enough controversy to force one into thinking about an issue. This is one of those. I am a potter that loves the entire process of potting - from recycling clay to analyzing glazes and everything in between. I had one of my pots in the MET as part of an Asian flower arrangement. I suppose you could consider that 'art'. I don't know and I don't really care. I do the work because I love it from top to bottom. It gives me pleasure when someone else is able to appreciate what my minds eye sees in something I have created in the same way that I get pleasure when someone admires my children. They are what I have put myself into and egos like to be massaged on occasion. I still stand by my statement that 'art' is anything that someone has created with the intent of arousing an emotion no matter what that emotion is. Whether it is successful 'art' or not is entirely dependent on the audience. I suppose I could convince myself that any artifact that generates an emotion becomes 'art' whether it was intended as such or not. I have seen horribly crafted beginners pieces sell at our pottery sales and the buyer almost always exclaims how much they love how handmade it looks. MOMA has a display of furniture, appliances and all sorts of other man made objects from earlier periods that are now treated as 'art' (really fun display if you get to NYC). These are artifacts that no longer really have function but still hold the beauty of their design and elicit emotions connected with associations with the period they represent. As I first stated - you can have art without the skill of the craft, you can have the skill of the craft without it being considered art (at least in the current time frame), you can have the skill of the craft and all the features of art or, the worse cell of the design. - have neither the skill of the craft or any qualities that you could name as art. If you have the skill of the craft, I would claim that at some time, with some audience you will have art. Women's quilts of previous generations were not considered 'art' in most part because it was simply women's work and a craft. It is now treated as valued 'art'. The author states 'It is all these things combined that make art exciting'. What underlies that statement is "for me". These are subjective things. But what made the article raise my hackles was its form and the opening statement "I see the craft world as a kind of lagoon and the art world in general as the ocean. Some artists shelter in this lagoon, because their imagination isn't robust enough to go out into the wider sea." I find no way to not see that as an offensive insult. I am enjoying the debate however that it has generated Donna "A & V" wrote in message ... But that is just the thing, I don't get the message from the article that he thinks that craft is inferior, he is just stating that they are not the same. ..."But craft isn't just a synonym for the hand-made. It is about technical skill but there must be a good idea guiding it, either traditional or innovative. I love craft objects to look at, but for me the best thing is a combination of its meaning, its beauty and its craftsmanship. It is all these things combined that make art exciting The essential distinction between art and craft is that art has an emphasis on feelings and ideas and the crafts have an emphasis on technique."... So I guess that he is trying to define terms art and craft. That is an old, old debate. How would you define them?? I personally start having problems when "design" is distilled out as separate from both art and craft. I think that "design" can't stand by itself, but "craft" can. An object can be "craft" without being "art" and vice versa. What we are ultimately looking for are those which are both.. In my opinion Art is something we strive for when creating, jet it only seldom happens. Not every painting is "ART" most of them are just paintings -"craft" (if that!). I don't think that pots are craft and paintings art, yet I found that quite often people refer to them in those terms. I guess that part of the debate is purely linguistic, but language is changing as well as our use of it and we sometimes need to define (perhaps redefine) terms we use. I often struggle when describing my work. Mostly I don"t make pots or sculptures in traditional sense, yet often I still call them "pots" for the lack of a better word. I hope my opinions don't offend, I think that we are all on the same side. I am sad too about the changes in education, but perhaps redefining can help. If ceramics is not studied as craft is it coming back as art or as design, or perhaps as design for industry. Clay will surface somewhere! Actually, WA school of art and design where I studied ceramics has changed the name of the courses to include the word "craft" ( I can't remember exact wording) - yet at the same time they had cut curriculum in half and almost eliminated glaze technology. Now I know how the knowledge can die out. But that has happened all through history I believe... look at the old roman (or was it Greek?) pots which were decorated only with slip - I don't think it is repeatable today. Sorry for all the rumblings. Hope to hear your opinion Andrea "dkat" wrote in message ... Perhaps I had such a negative response to it because I have seen crafts being eliminated from our schools because of the attitude displayed in this article. The arts departments in our University will not even allow functional pieces to be created in the ceramics classes - all you see coming out of that department are what I consider 'gag me with a spoon' sculptures. If you look at Picasso's work when he started out, it was beautiful classical drawings. Even if you do want to move into the abstract and the whimsical you should at least have a sense of the history of the working of clay and be able to create the 'classical' pieces. I think you should understand the fundamentals of what goes into glazes and what makes them melt, gives them color, etc. but I don't declare what makes one form of creation superior to another form of creation. I tend to be somewhat hostile to anyone that builds their own ego up by declaring how others are inferior. "A & V" wrote in message ... I Have just read the article - thanks Annemarie - and I am surprised at some peoples reaction. I dont find the article derogarotive. Why such hostile reaction to what it says? So, I went over it again and I tend to agree with most things he says. Actualy, almost all of it. Actualy, I cant find anything that I strongly disagree with. He touched lots of aspects of art/craft in a very brief way here... skimed the surface of many (perhaps painful )issues. I would like to read more and in depth opinions. As soon as I get some ink for my ever hungry printer, I will print the article ant stick it on the wall in the studio to remind me who I am and where I want to be. Thanks again Annemarie!! Andrea "Lee In Mashiko, Japan" wrote in message ups.com... What if they had to have yard sales to pay for war? You can judge a society by what it spends its money on. -- ? Lee Love ? ??? ?? ? in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org http://hankos.blogspot.com/ Visual Bookmarks http://ikiru.blogspot.com/ Zen and Craft "With Humans it's what's here (he points to his heart) that makes the difference. If you don't have it in the heart, nothing you make will make a difference." ~~Bernard Leach~~ (As told to Dean Schwarz) |
#16
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back around 94-95 i lost my "real" job as an engineer & worked full
time in pottery, and substitute teaching. i learned fast i needed to crank out $regular$ pieces for money, but set myself a policy that the last piece of the day was going to be a "piece for me". i distinctly ended each day on an up note this way - throwing something extra large, more shape, whatever. now i have that real job again and through this sponsor i can now play with clay & do what i want. ~ but it sure is hard to do clay full time & try to advance in your art. see ya steve A & V wrote: Hi Donna, I totaly agree with you, so it is hard to "debate", but as I'm also enjoying it ...here I am again. I have recently atended a series of busines workshops for art/craft practitioners. Speakers were mostly from business management world. I think that the idea is to give us dreamers some business sense ( you have a great product, but how can you make money marketing it...all very trendy buzz words) athough I agree that if we are to have income from what we do we need at least some basic business sense, I observed that those who embraced the ideas the most have (in my opinion) losst their "art". My fellow clay artist (my title, I don't know if she would agree with it) who used to do intricately painted bowls, textured teapots and thought provoking sulptural bowls is now making slipcast vases with stamped decoration (How many hours of work in each piece, how to cut hours down, how to save on glazes). While she was making pieces from the hart, they were great, now she "can't afford" to experiment, to try new things... she feels she has to play it safe. So when Grayson talks about a lagoon, he strikes a cord with how I feel about what is happening to my friend.The worst thing is that a lot of practitioners attended the workshops and are now keeping each other comfortable within the proces. I hope that she will figure out what is happening and bounce back. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that it is wrong to market our products, or to have busines plan, or to make profit. But it is wrong to call that art. Those pieces are missing soul. Of course, I am generalizing. Some of those pieces will have soul too ( as grayson points out - generaly as a mistake). And I don't think that something needs to be unique to be art... but.... It is a bit like McDonalds calling itself a restaurant. (which they DO and nobody is challenging it!) Does that make any sense? I find it hard to put it in the words. Andrea "DKat" wrote in message ... I like discussions that have enough controversy to force one into thinking about an issue. This is one of those. I am a potter that loves the entire process of potting - from recycling clay to analyzing glazes and everything in between. I had one of my pots in the MET as part of an Asian flower arrangement. I suppose you could consider that 'art'. I don't know and I don't really care. I do the work because I love it from top to bottom. It gives me pleasure when someone else is able to appreciate what my minds eye sees in something I have created in the same way that I get pleasure when someone admires my children. They are what I have put myself into and egos like to be massaged on occasion. I still stand by my statement that 'art' is anything that someone has created with the intent of arousing an emotion no matter what that emotion is. Whether it is successful 'art' or not is entirely dependent on the audience. I suppose I could convince myself that any artifact that generates an emotion becomes 'art' whether it was intended as such or not. I have seen horribly crafted beginners pieces sell at our pottery sales and the buyer almost always exclaims how much they love how handmade it looks. MOMA has a display of furniture, appliances and all sorts of other man made objects from earlier periods that are now treated as 'art' (really fun display if you get to NYC). These are artifacts that no longer really have function but still hold the beauty of their design and elicit emotions connected with associations with the period they represent. As I first stated - you can have art without the skill of the craft, you can have the skill of the craft without it being considered art (at least in the current time frame), you can have the skill of the craft and all the features of art or, the worse cell of the design. - have neither the skill of the craft or any qualities that you could name as art. If you have the skill of the craft, I would claim that at some time, with some audience you will have art. Women's quilts of previous generations were not considered 'art' in most part because it was simply women's work and a craft. It is now treated as valued 'art'. The author states 'It is all these things combined that make art exciting'. What underlies that statement is "for me". These are subjective things. But what made the article raise my hackles was its form and the opening statement "I see the craft world as a kind of lagoon and the art world in general as the ocean. Some artists shelter in this lagoon, because their imagination isn't robust enough to go out into the wider sea." I find no way to not see that as an offensive insult. I am enjoying the debate however that it has generated Donna "A & V" wrote in message ... But that is just the thing, I don't get the message from the article that he thinks that craft is inferior, he is just stating that they are not the same. ..."But craft isn't just a synonym for the hand-made. It is about technical skill but there must be a good idea guiding it, either traditional or innovative. I love craft objects to look at, but for me the best thing is a combination of its meaning, its beauty and its craftsmanship. It is all these things combined that make art exciting The essential distinction between art and craft is that art has an emphasis on feelings and ideas and the crafts have an emphasis on technique."... So I guess that he is trying to define terms art and craft. That is an old, old debate. How would you define them?? I personally start having problems when "design" is distilled out as separate from both art and craft. I think that "design" can't stand by itself, but "craft" can. An object can be "craft" without being "art" and vice versa. What we are ultimately looking for are those which are both.. In my opinion Art is something we strive for when creating, jet it only seldom happens. Not every painting is "ART" most of them are just paintings -"craft" (if that!). I don't think that pots are craft and paintings art, yet I found that quite often people refer to them in those terms. I guess that part of the debate is purely linguistic, but language is changing as well as our use of it and we sometimes need to define (perhaps redefine) terms we use. I often struggle when describing my work. Mostly I don"t make pots or sculptures in traditional sense, yet often I still call them "pots" for the lack of a better word. I hope my opinions don't offend, I think that we are all on the same side. I am sad too about the changes in education, but perhaps redefining can help. If ceramics is not studied as craft is it coming back as art or as design, or perhaps as design for industry. Clay will surface somewhere! Actually, WA school of art and design where I studied ceramics has changed the name of the courses to include the word "craft" ( I can't remember exact wording) - yet at the same time they had cut curriculum in half and almost eliminated glaze technology. Now I know how the knowledge can die out. But that has happened all through history I believe... look at the old roman (or was it Greek?) pots which were decorated only with slip - I don't think it is repeatable today. Sorry for all the rumblings. Hope to hear your opinion Andrea "dkat" wrote in message ... Perhaps I had such a negative response to it because I have seen crafts being eliminated from our schools because of the attitude displayed in this article. The arts departments in our University will not even allow functional pieces to be created in the ceramics classes - all you see coming out of that department are what I consider 'gag me with a spoon' sculptures. If you look at Picasso's work when he started out, it was beautiful classical drawings. Even if you do want to move into the abstract and the whimsical you should at least have a sense of the history of the working of clay and be able to create the 'classical' pieces. I think you should understand the fundamentals of what goes into glazes and what makes them melt, gives them color, etc. but I don't declare what makes one form of creation superior to another form of creation. I tend to be somewhat hostile to anyone that builds their own ego up by declaring how others are inferior. "A & V" wrote in message ... I Have just read the article - thanks Annemarie - and I am surprised at some peoples reaction. I dont find the article derogarotive. Why such hostile reaction to what it says? So, I went over it again and I tend to agree with most things he says. Actualy, almost all of it. Actualy, I cant find anything that I strongly disagree with. He touched lots of aspects of art/craft in a very brief way here... skimed the surface of many (perhaps painful )issues. I would like to read more and in depth opinions. As soon as I get some ink for my ever hungry printer, I will print the article ant stick it on the wall in the studio to remind me who I am and where I want to be. Thanks again Annemarie!! Andrea "Lee In Mashiko, Japan" wrote in message ups.com... What if they had to have yard sales to pay for war? You can judge a society by what it spends its money on. -- ? Lee Love ? ??? ?? ? in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org http://hankos.blogspot.com/ Visual Bookmarks http://ikiru.blogspot.com/ Zen and Craft "With Humans it's what's here (he points to his heart) that makes the difference. If you don't have it in the heart, nothing you make will make a difference." ~~Bernard Leach~~ (As told to Dean Schwarz) |
#17
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I think you put it into words very well. I had not thought of if in those
terms at all until you did. I have the luxury of not needing to support myself with my pottery and being egocentric completely failed to see this aspect. With my value system I believe I would rather be a 'starving artist' than a wealthy businesswoman but I kick myself as a reminder that this is my choice and not one I should expect from everyone that works in clay or any other creative medium. Still I find it heartbreaking to see someone who creates beautiful work being forced to stop creating so that they can earn a living. It is like watching a parent forcing their child to be just like everyone else. Every once in a while a student complains about not being able to have a bright fire engine red glaze with perfectly identical sized pieces. I respond, 'You can - just go down to Targets and buy it cheaply off the shelf'. We are not producing 'Mc Donald's and we should expect it of ourselves IMO. There is no way I can compete with Corning in producing what they do and I would not want to. What is the point of my producing what a machine can do? I want the buyer who loves seeing a finger indent in the bottom of the pot where it was pushed of the wheel. I believe one of our problems is overhead and exposure. If we take our pieces to a gallery, store, fair, etc. we have to mark up what we are selling to cover what to me are often exorbitant charges. It strikes me if food trucks can pull over to the side of the road to sell their food then we should be able to do the same with our pottery. There are enough people out there that appreciate the work; it is simply a matter of grabbing their attention. Perhaps we should have Starbuck's mugs with their original prices next to our mugs and point out that they can buy a machine made product or a unique piece of art for the same price? I love the image.... Donna "A & V" wrote in message ... Hi Donna, I totaly agree with you, so it is hard to "debate", but as I'm also enjoying it ...here I am again. I have recently atended a series of busines workshops for art/craft practitioners. Speakers were mostly from business management world. I think that the idea is to give us dreamers some business sense ( you have a great product, but how can you make money marketing it...all very trendy buzz words) athough I agree that if we are to have income from what we do we need at least some basic business sense, I observed that those who embraced the ideas the most have (in my opinion) losst their "art". My fellow clay artist (my title, I don't know if she would agree with it) who used to do intricately painted bowls, textured teapots and thought provoking sulptural bowls is now making slipcast vases with stamped decoration (How many hours of work in each piece, how to cut hours down, how to save on glazes). While she was making pieces from the hart, they were great, now she "can't afford" to experiment, to try new things... she feels she has to play it safe. So when Grayson talks about a lagoon, he strikes a cord with how I feel about what is happening to my friend.The worst thing is that a lot of practitioners attended the workshops and are now keeping each other comfortable within the proces. I hope that she will figure out what is happening and bounce back. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that it is wrong to market our products, or to have busines plan, or to make profit. But it is wrong to call that art. Those pieces are missing soul. Of course, I am generalizing. Some of those pieces will have soul too ( as grayson points out - generaly as a mistake). And I don't think that something needs to be unique to be art... but.... It is a bit like McDonalds calling itself a restaurant. (which they DO and nobody is challenging it!) Does that make any sense? I find it hard to put it in the words. Andrea "DKat" wrote in message ... I like discussions that have enough controversy to force one into thinking about an issue. This is one of those. I am a potter that loves the entire process of potting - from recycling clay to analyzing glazes and everything in between. I had one of my pots in the MET as part of an Asian flower arrangement. I suppose you could consider that 'art'. I don't know and I don't really care. I do the work because I love it from top to bottom. It gives me pleasure when someone else is able to appreciate what my minds eye sees in something I have created in the same way that I get pleasure when someone admires my children. They are what I have put myself into and egos like to be massaged on occasion. I still stand by my statement that 'art' is anything that someone has created with the intent of arousing an emotion no matter what that emotion is. Whether it is successful 'art' or not is entirely dependent on the audience. I suppose I could convince myself that any artifact that generates an emotion becomes 'art' whether it was intended as such or not. I have seen horribly crafted beginners pieces sell at our pottery sales and the buyer almost always exclaims how much they love how handmade it looks. MOMA has a display of furniture, appliances and all sorts of other man made objects from earlier periods that are now treated as 'art' (really fun display if you get to NYC). These are artifacts that no longer really have function but still hold the beauty of their design and elicit emotions connected with associations with the period they represent. As I first stated - you can have art without the skill of the craft, you can have the skill of the craft without it being considered art (at least in the current time frame), you can have the skill of the craft and all the features of art or, the worse cell of the design. - have neither the skill of the craft or any qualities that you could name as art. If you have the skill of the craft, I would claim that at some time, with some audience you will have art. Women's quilts of previous generations were not considered 'art' in most part because it was simply women's work and a craft. It is now treated as valued 'art'. The author states 'It is all these things combined that make art exciting'. What underlies that statement is "for me". These are subjective things. But what made the article raise my hackles was its form and the opening statement "I see the craft world as a kind of lagoon and the art world in general as the ocean. Some artists shelter in this lagoon, because their imagination isn't robust enough to go out into the wider sea." I find no way to not see that as an offensive insult. I am enjoying the debate however that it has generated Donna "A & V" wrote in message ... But that is just the thing, I don't get the message from the article that he thinks that craft is inferior, he is just stating that they are not the same. ..."But craft isn't just a synonym for the hand-made. It is about technical skill but there must be a good idea guiding it, either traditional or innovative. I love craft objects to look at, but for me the best thing is a combination of its meaning, its beauty and its craftsmanship. It is all these things combined that make art exciting The essential distinction between art and craft is that art has an emphasis on feelings and ideas and the crafts have an emphasis on technique."... So I guess that he is trying to define terms art and craft. That is an old, old debate. How would you define them?? I personally start having problems when "design" is distilled out as separate from both art and craft. I think that "design" can't stand by itself, but "craft" can. An object can be "craft" without being "art" and vice versa. What we are ultimately looking for are those which are both.. In my opinion Art is something we strive for when creating, jet it only seldom happens. Not every painting is "ART" most of them are just paintings -"craft" (if that!). I don't think that pots are craft and paintings art, yet I found that quite often people refer to them in those terms. I guess that part of the debate is purely linguistic, but language is changing as well as our use of it and we sometimes need to define (perhaps redefine) terms we use. I often struggle when describing my work. Mostly I don"t make pots or sculptures in traditional sense, yet often I still call them "pots" for the lack of a better word. I hope my opinions don't offend, I think that we are all on the same side. I am sad too about the changes in education, but perhaps redefining can help. If ceramics is not studied as craft is it coming back as art or as design, or perhaps as design for industry. Clay will surface somewhere! Actually, WA school of art and design where I studied ceramics has changed the name of the courses to include the word "craft" ( I can't remember exact wording) - yet at the same time they had cut curriculum in half and almost eliminated glaze technology. Now I know how the knowledge can die out. But that has happened all through history I believe... look at the old roman (or was it Greek?) pots which were decorated only with slip - I don't think it is repeatable today. Sorry for all the rumblings. Hope to hear your opinion Andrea "dkat" wrote in message ... Perhaps I had such a negative response to it because I have seen crafts being eliminated from our schools because of the attitude displayed in this article. The arts departments in our University will not even allow functional pieces to be created in the ceramics classes - all you see coming out of that department are what I consider 'gag me with a spoon' sculptures. If you look at Picasso's work when he started out, it was beautiful classical drawings. Even if you do want to move into the abstract and the whimsical you should at least have a sense of the history of the working of clay and be able to create the 'classical' pieces. I think you should understand the fundamentals of what goes into glazes and what makes them melt, gives them color, etc. but I don't declare what makes one form of creation superior to another form of creation. I tend to be somewhat hostile to anyone that builds their own ego up by declaring how others are inferior. "A & V" wrote in message ... I Have just read the article - thanks Annemarie - and I am surprised at some peoples reaction. I dont find the article derogarotive. Why such hostile reaction to what it says? So, I went over it again and I tend to agree with most things he says. Actualy, almost all of it. Actualy, I cant find anything that I strongly disagree with. He touched lots of aspects of art/craft in a very brief way here... skimed the surface of many (perhaps painful )issues. I would like to read more and in depth opinions. As soon as I get some ink for my ever hungry printer, I will print the article ant stick it on the wall in the studio to remind me who I am and where I want to be. Thanks again Annemarie!! Andrea "Lee In Mashiko, Japan" wrote in message ups.com... What if they had to have yard sales to pay for war? You can judge a society by what it spends its money on. -- ? Lee Love ? ??? ?? ? in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org http://hankos.blogspot.com/ Visual Bookmarks http://ikiru.blogspot.com/ Zen and Craft "With Humans it's what's here (he points to his heart) that makes the difference. If you don't have it in the heart, nothing you make will make a difference." ~~Bernard Leach~~ (As told to Dean Schwarz) |
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I have enjoyed the debate that is going on concerning art and craft.
This may be oversimplified, but I have always considered making the pot, the sculptural form, or painting, as the craft. The art is the result of the craft, or the actual piece. Just my 2 cents. Johnny Horner http://www.pawpawspottery.freeservers.com |
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you've got something there ~ the *craft* process is sure fun, and when
done we often say "now THAT's one nice piece!" followed by, "yeah, and look at THIS one!". ~ make more! we just had a raku party the other night - some 40 people. you should have heard the conversations around the finished pieces table that night.. for me, a fat guy former gymnast, pottery is very much like gymnastics. we learn the technique, and try & try & try again to make that perfect pot. it's simply fun enough to stay at it. yet with the right passion we slowly get into the 8's and 9's with our work. see ya steve Johnny wrote: I have enjoyed the debate that is going on concerning art and craft. This may be oversimplified, but I have always considered making the pot, the sculptural form, or painting, as the craft. The art is the result of the craft, or the actual piece. Just my 2 cents. Johnny Horner http://www.pawpawspottery.freeservers.com |
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"A & V" wrote in message ... I Have just read the article - thanks Annemarie - and I am surprised at some peoples reaction. I dont find the article derogarotive. Why such hostile reaction to what it says? So, I went over it again and I tend to agree with most things he says. Actualy, almost all of it. Actualy, I cant find anything that I strongly disagree with. He touched lots of aspects of art/craft in a very brief way here... skimed the surface of many (perhaps painful )issues. I would like to read more and in depth opinions. As soon as I get some ink for my ever hungry printer, I will print the article ant stick it on the wall in the studio to remind me who I am and where I want to be. Thanks again Annemarie!! Andrea Its a pleasure. We changed server and for some reason the newsgroups were not working properly for a while and consiquently I ended up starting a thread and then missing most of the interesting comments after. I tend to agree with a lot of what he said too, whats more I think his work is really great. The fact that the posts are handmade makes them less perfect than thrown vessels but thats ok with me. I listened to a talk by him when he came to NZ and he was dressed in a little girl dress then too. He was fascinating to listen to, very knowledgable charming. He showed slides of his work and life and there were a couple of photos of him in adult female clothing and he actually looked pretty good ) Whatever, I think that fact that he is a tranny is irrelevant to his work. Some of his work is challenging, ie the subject matter is rather strong, but it sure as heck evokes a response, and that to me means art ) Annemarie |
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