refine peach sap

I have an orchard and have been harvesting peach sap from the base of
old trees. Some chunks are perfect "drops", others are contaminated
with other organic material.

I've tried to refine this "amber" by boiling in water, but it will not
disolve the sap, I've also tried alcohol, with even less results.

What could be used to refine this sap and produce a purer substance.

Thanks,

Nick

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:13:46 -0700, "servozoom" =
wrote:

I have an orchard and have been harvesting peach sap from the base of
old trees. Some chunks are perfect "drops", others are contaminated
with other organic material.

I've tried to refine this "amber" by boiling in water, but it will not
disolve the sap, I've also tried alcohol, with even less results.

What could be used to refine this sap and produce a purer substance.

Thanks,

Nick


I would expect more "turpentine - like" solvents, such as turpentine =
itself, or
mineral spirits, or perhaps one of the more aggressive hydrocarbon =
solvents like
zylene or acetone to work better to dissolve such stuff. But Turpentine =
would
be my first try, since it's actually sourced from, essentially, wood =
sap...

But frankly, then what? How do you expect to regain the original =
visually
interesting form? =20

You might also want to just try gently heating it to melt it, perhaps =
allowing
impurities to be filtered or to drift down or something (?). Melted, you=
could
use some sort of press arrangement (I"m thinking something like a sturdy =
cookie
press sort of thing made from iron pipe and similar steel componants, or =
the
like) to force the softened resin through a mesh small enough to block =
your
impurities.

One thing to keep in mind is that modern resins like this are not at all =
like
amber in terms of hardness, optics, permanence, chemical stability, and =
the
like. Amber has been changed chemically by it's millions of years of =
waiting.
What you've got may look superficially like amber, but it's not. Still =
just
sap. Not that this means it's useless gunk. There are other modern =
"saps" that
are also used, sometimes as cheap lesser substitutes for amber (Copal is =
one
such)

Another thing to keep in mind is that at least with amber, often the =
impurities
increase it's value, not decrease it. Plain pure amber with no =
impurities often
sells for less than sambles with recognizable bits of ancient plant or =
insect
life imbedded therein. Now, modern impurities won't have that =
historical/age
related value, but they might still be adding visual interest... Are you=
sure
you wish to remove them, creating something that looks like just another =
bit of
yellow plastic?

Peter

Thanks for your reply Peter. I posted a reply earlier tonight to you
and it didn't show up, so let me summerize. As far as my reason for
this. I have over 100 trees and dug up about 10 lbs from 10 trees.
About 10% of it are beautiful "gem quality" drops, as big as an inch in
diameter. Another 30% are irregular chunks with not much clarity, but
very nice. The rest are globs of sap, mixed with dirt, wood, grass,
and other organic matter, to the point of being matte black worthless
globs. My idea is to separate the sap from the junk and reform it
into drops, my thought was to let it solidify while dripping off of a
ledge. With a little gravity and cooling, I had the idea that it
could form into appealing globs. Well, I struck out today, below is
what I just had posted to another groupsci.chem.analytical), It
details my experiment. If you'd like a sample of a "good" chunk,
email me with an address that I could send it to. Thanks again for
your help. Nick

------------------------------------

Ok, results from the lab are in. Turpentine did nothing at all, at

least not at room temp. Water however, at room temp did soften a
mass. I brought the water to a boil and the clump broke up into
"gelatin like" clear to dark yellow spherical globs. Leaves, dirt and

wood were easy to decant off the top and bottom. Now I tried to
melt the globs together, but no luck, then with room
temp alcohol or turpentine... nope. Worked on another batch of
globs and could only "cut" them into smaller particles, but never able
to recombine them. I even put them in a blender, but no luck, the
substance I ended up with was very similar looking to gelatin powder.
I'm stuck for now, going to look into polymerization, and some kind
of technique that would work for this unknown substance. Thanks to
everyone in the group, If anyone can figure this out, I'm sure there
will be a Nobel Prize waiting. Nick

servozoom wrote:

I have an orchard and have been harvesting peach sap from the base of
old trees. Some chunks are perfect "drops", others are contaminated
with other organic material.
=20
I've tried to refine this "amber" by boiling in water, but it will not
disolve the sap, I've also tried alcohol, with even less results.
=20
What could be used to refine this sap and produce a purer substance.
=20
Thanks,
=20
Nick
=20
=20

Perhaps it has value as some type of 'aroma therapy'-type material.=20
maybe incorporated into a candle or lamp oil somehow?

It would take some real creativity to be useful in a jewelry form I =
think.

have fun!

Carl
1 Lucky Texan


--=20
to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)

Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:

I've tried to refine this "amber" by boiling in water, but it will not
disolve the sap, I've also tried alcohol, with even less results.

I would expect more "turpentine - like" solvents,..............

Chemists devoted large part of the late 18th and early 20th century to=20
quick ways of doing things that imitate other things. It's called=20
"plastic." I very seriously doubt if Servoz will make any improvements=20
on polyester resin or clear epoxy and a bit of brown-orange coloring.=20
You can get it at the corner hardware store for pocket change. Don't=20
forget that mosquito!

Thanks for your reply Peter,

I just went out and got some turpentine, if it doesn't work, I saw
xylene and acetone at the home depot as well.

Let me explain the maddness, I am aware of inclusions being a positive
thing in sap, or amber, and I'm ok with little stuff, but about 90% of
the chunks I have are mixed with dirt and organic material, to the
extent that it's not visually appealling at all. The 10% that are
prime, are "drops" that hardened before hitting the ground, these are
spectacular, the other stuff is really junk unless I do something to
it, If I can separate the sap from the junk, I may be able to let it
for "tear drops" while solidifying over a ledge. To form it right
into a mold, may be another option, but like you said in your post. It
would be hard to regain a visually interesting form, and I don't want
it to look like yellow plastic either. You've been very helpfull.
Email me and I'll mail you a sample of the good stuff, I really think
there has to be some kind of value to it. Thanks again. Nick

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:29:22 -0700, in =A4=07=F5 "servozoom" =

wrote:

Thanks for your reply Peter. I posted a reply earlier tonight to you
and it didn't show up...

Rec.crafts.jewelry is a moderated newsgroup. (I happen to be the =
moderator, but
this holds true for any posters, as well as most other moderated =
newsgroups.
Most newsgroups in usenet are not moderated) What moderation does, is to=
shunt
all posts to the group, such as yours, to email and in that form, to the
moderator. There, in the moderators inbox, it waits until downloaded =
like any
email. I have to read it, decide it belongs in the group (isn't spam, =
for
example), and repost it to the group with modified headers. Only then =
does it
show up. This means there is almost always a time delay unless you =
happen to
post a message just before I sit down at the computer to process new =
messages
for the day. I generally try to do this at least twice a day, but =
sometimes
just once, as my schedule allows. The moderator thing is a totally =
volunteer
task, after all, and I've got a full time "real" job, which happens to be
without computer access. So the time delay for messages showing up can =
range
from quite brief, to as much as 24 hours, and sometimes, more. That's =
the
downside to a moderated group. Supposedly, the benefit to readers is =
freedom
from the several junk messages I toss out every day. You've all seen the=
sort.
I also am the reason you don't see the group flooded with lots of ads =
selling
jewelry and ebay items. Hopefully, this is worth the posting delays.

, so let me summerize. As far as my reason for
this. I have over 100 trees and dug up about 10 lbs from 10 trees.
About 10% of it are beautiful "gem quality" drops, as big as an inch in
diameter. Another 30% are irregular chunks with not much clarity, but
very nice. The rest are globs of sap, mixed with dirt, wood, grass,
and other organic matter, to the point of being matte black worthless
globs. My idea is to separate the sap from the junk and reform it
into drops, my thought was to let it solidify while dripping off of a
ledge. With a little gravity and cooling, I had the idea that it
could form into appealing globs. Well, I struck out today, below is
what I just had posted to another groupsci.chem.analytical), It
details my experiment. If you'd like a sample of a "good" chunk,
email me with an address that I could send it to. Thanks again for
your help. Nick


No doubt it IS possible. but just how you'd do it is beyond my knowledge=
and
experience. Too bad my father is no longer alive, as I could have found =
your
answers with a phone call to him. The chemistry of wood bark extractives=
(which
includes all the chemicals in the sap, for example, and his specialty was=
the
large group called Triterpines, which of course includes turpentine, and =
many
other chemicals that make various woods different and interesting) was =
his
career at the U.S. Forest Products Laboratory in Madison Wisconsin =
(another
source for info should you wish to contact them. No doubt someone there =
would
have your answers as to what you need to do. The economic uses of trees =
and
agricultural products is a main part of what they exist for.

However, I suspect that boiling water is not the right solvent, and =
likely, not
hot enough either. The water might actually be interfering with =
recombining the
material, but I'd expect you just don't have it to an actual melting =
point, just
a point where it's lost it's cohesiveness. Amber is "clarified" in =
much the
way you wish to do using heat and pressure, often while immersed in a =
bath of
rapeseed oil, if I remember it right. At the right pressures and temps, =
it
becomes plastic and flows together, allowing seperate chunks to be =
combined, as
well as eliminating some types of cloudiness due to tiny gas bubbles.

I don't think you'll quite duplicate the drops with just letting a liquid=
drip,
since in nature the stuff oozes out very slowly, allowing both moisture =
and
volatile hydrocarbons to evaporate, and no doubt there's also oxidation =
of the
resins going on too, as part of the solidification process. But I'd =
expect
that with the right heating and pressure arrangments, you could press it =
into
solid blocks or some sort. At least, that's what they do with amber.

Peter

------------------------------------

Ok, results from the lab are in. Turpentine did nothing at all, at

least not at room temp. Water however, at room temp did soften a
mass. I brought the water to a boil and the clump broke up into
"gelatin like" clear to dark yellow spherical globs. Leaves, dirt and

wood were easy to decant off the top and bottom. Now I tried to
melt the globs together, but no luck, then with room
temp alcohol or turpentine... nope. Worked on another batch of
globs and could only "cut" them into smaller particles, but never able
to recombine them. I even put them in a blender, but no luck, the
substance I ended up with was very similar looking to gelatin powder.
I'm stuck for now, going to look into polymerization, and some kind
of technique that would work for this unknown substance. Thanks to
everyone in the group, If anyone can figure this out, I'm sure there
will be a Nobel Prize waiting. Nick

After you melt it have you tried sudden cooling? Yes like a freezer.


"Carl 1 Lucky Texan" wrote in message=20
...
servozoom wrote:

I have an orchard and have been harvesting peach sap from the base of
old trees. Some chunks are perfect "drops", others are contaminated
with other organic material.

I've tried to refine this "amber" by boiling in water, but it will not
disolve the sap, I've also tried alcohol, with even less results.

What could be used to refine this sap and produce a purer substance.

Thanks,

Nick



Perhaps it has value as some type of 'aroma therapy'-type material.
maybe incorporated into a candle or lamp oil somehow?

It would take some real creativity to be useful in a jewelry form I =
think.

have fun!

Carl
1 Lucky Texan


--=20
to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)

I've tried to refine this "amber" by boiling in water, but it will not
disolve the sap, I've also tried alcohol, with even less results.

You might try a double boiler like they use with melting wax for
candle making.