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#11
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A necklace I am proud of :)
Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:
First, let me state catagorically that jewelry made with beading techniques is most certainly within the topic and scope of this newsgroup. Discussing such work here is entirely acceptable within the terms of the group charter. Yep. And may I add that the image was posted several days before the Real Power, Kojo, declared that multi-strand necklaces were going to be the hot item this year. Flic may outsell all of us! -- mbstevens http://www.mbstevens.com/ |
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#12
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A necklace I am proud of :)
"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
... "Critical posts may sometimes hurt, but if written intellegently, can also be great teaching tools." Yes, some people who post their work are looking for positive feedback to bolster their own feelings and are taken aback when they get a less than glowing response. I'm fine with critical constructive feedback - but when it's negative and mean spirited - I don't find it useful and tend to ignore it. I'm not sure what I would suppose to be learning from comments such as this "I think I'm going to hang myself now, or maybe I'll just quietly slit my wrists" - How is that constructive? What can be learned from that? As someone relatively new to jewelry design, construction and creation I look to all sorts of experts and ask their opinion regarding my work. I've learned so much from then and have found them to be truly beneficial to my development. By the way, I create jewelry using beads and do wirework. It's not as fulfilling as it once was and am now branching out and will start expanding my knowledge taking silversmithing classes and working with PMC. My inspiration came from looking at the Sundance Catalog while looking at a piece of jewelry that was thinking to myself that "I can do that" and I was right. Would you consider the "artist" featured in that catalog to be true artist? Or are they just "beaders" in your opinion? |
#13
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A necklace I am proud of :)
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:39:07 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "mehughes"
wrote: "Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message . .. "Critical posts may sometimes hurt, but if written intellegently, can also be great teaching tools." Yes, some people who post their work are looking for positive feedback to bolster their own feelings and are taken aback when they get a less than glowing response. True enough. Often, the problem may lie in that readers of such a post do not always have the means to put it's writer in full context. A post showcasing a work that, to the seasoned professionals, may seen naive or rather basic and not otherwise obviously outstanding when judged against the full body of jewelry work out there, might have been responded to differently if readers knew,for illustration purposes, that the maker was just eight years old, or was totally handicapped and this was as technical as he or she could manage, or was atotal beginner, having had no instruction and this was the second piece ever attempted. In these admitedly extreme examples, the otherwise unispiringwork takes on new impressiveness. But in the group, we're seldom able to be aware of the difficulties a person with such a post may have had to face and overcome, or what extent of prior experience they bring to the work. In those situations where I've had the honor to play the role of teacher to students of jewelry, I've set tasks to be undertaken that I usually am pretty sure will challenge abilities. The results, not surprisingly, often are lacking in various ways were they things made by me or someone else with my experience. Yet, from students at the level they have been, usually the work has been impressive, as often as not exceeding my expectations. The newsgroup is a little bit like seeing that student work in a craft gallery showcase. You have little with which to put it in context, unless the maker fully explains the situation, and usually they do not. I'm fine with critical constructive feedback - but when it's negative and mean spirited - I don't find it useful and tend to ignore it. I'm not sure what I would suppose to be learning from comments such as this "I think I'm going to hang myself now, or maybe I'll just quietly slit my wrists" - How is that constructive? What can be learned from that? Not much, indeed, other than that one has failed to impress the writer, or that the writer has a problem. It may indicate nothing more than that the writer, like the hypothetical poster you first refer to, is interested in bolstering his or her own self image, rather than offering constructive commentary. Just keep in mind that a fair number of the readers of this group or others like it, have the natural tendancy to assume, at least at first, that other readers are somewhere near their own level of sophistication, or aspiring to it. This can lead, obviously, to misinterpretations and abrupt initial responses. So can long or frustrating days at work when one then settles down, finally, to relax for a moment reading the newsgroup for anything of interest. I happen to rather enjoy the irony in the fact that Abrasha is also the fine and long time contributor to this group who has, on appropriate occasions, graced us with his posting a copy of this bit of usnet wisdom (it's longer, but I've edited it a bit for this post ********** *** ***1. If you post and pretend to be a fool, people will believe that you ***are a fool. *** ***Corollary: If you then post and explain that you were only pretending, ***nobody will change their mind. *** ***2. The Net-Nature is very simple. Usenet is *not* dominated by the ***smartest people, the most interesting people, or the most learned ***people. It is dominated by the people who want to tell other people ***their opinions. To expect anything else is absurd. *** ***3. Similarly, the topics that dominate any given newsgroup are not the ***most interesting, the most helpful, or the most useful. They're the ***most acrimonious and the most dissent-laden. How else could things ***possibly turn out? *** ***4. A person who says, "Sorry, I had to point that out to you" is always ***telling two lies. Ditto for "Sorry, I couldn't pass this up." "I see ***your point but...." means the opposite. *** ***5. When a fool posts deliberate flamebait, he has no influence over ***whether he/she succeeds. You do. *** ***10. The exclamation point "!" is a sentence tag which denotes emphasis. ***The double exclamation point "!!" is a sentence tag which denotes the ***writer is a self-centered fool who think his/her concerns are more ***important than anyone else. The triple "!!!" is an exaggeration of the ***double. Four or more exclamation points indicate sexual inadequacy. *** ***11. You, personally, are a unique, exciting, vibrant, intelligent, wise, ***and self effacing individual with a great deal to contribute to the ***newsgroups you select on the Net. So is every other schmuck who posts. ***Get over it. *** ***14. Internet gurus on a specific topic are a dime a dozen. It is the ***people who don't know much who are rare. ******* See the prior postings of this for the full version (google archives). It's funny and all, but has enough of a hint of truth that I'll leave it to speak for itself in this discussion. As someone relatively new to jewelry design, construction and creation I look to all sorts of experts and ask their opinion regarding my work. I've learned so much from then and have found them to be truly beneficial tomy development. Without good teachers, many of us would still be floundering with things we now consider very basic. It's a heritage we all owe to those who've gone before us and solved problems for us, developed techniques and tools for us, and been kind enough as to share their learnings. And it's a responsibility too, for us to in turn, be willing to pass our own learnings back to the next generation. By the way, I create jewelry using beads and do wirework. It's not as fulfilling as it once was and am now branching out and will start expanding my knowledge taking silversmithing classes and working with PMC. My inspiration came from looking at the Sundance Catalog while looking at a piece of jewelry that was thinking to myself that "I can do that" and Iwas right. Would you consider the "artist" featured in that catalog to be true artist? Or are they just "beaders" in your opinion? I'm all for learning more. Good luck. Be aware that PMC is a highly specialized and unique material. It's capable of some interesting things. But don't confuse learning to work with it as being the same as learning traditional silver smithing and jewlery techniques. Though it produces metal objects, it has more in common with ceramics than it does with classic silversmithing. I note from your email address that you're at the University of Washington. And I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you're there as something other than a metals and jewelry major in the art school. If so, be sure you familiarize yourself with that department. It's a fine one, and if you can take on of Mary Lee Hu's classes, you won't regret it. If looking for off campus classes, North Seattle Community college and Pratt fine art institute both offer fine ones, among others. As to the sundance catalog, there's no way for me to tell without knowingmuch more about the work of that person. I don't have a sundance catalog, so I cannot even go that far. But I'd observe that it seems common for a number of print media, including things like Lapidary Journal magazine and others, or a number of the supply catalogs, to publish photos of works made using their materials, or otherwise intended for instruction. Many of these things indeed come from established fine artists, but are often chosen to be especiallyuseful at the beginner level. As such, often such published examples, intended often to be copied or as inspiration for those without so much experience in that aspect of the craft, do not really reflect the true nature of the work of that artist. The real work those artists do for their own production and sales and exhibition is often much more sophisticated. But not always. So it's really not such a good idea to judge an artist from such small snapshots in those places where the artists is not clearly showcased for their own promotion. HTH Peter Rowe |
#14
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A necklace I am proud of :)
mehughes wrote:
I'm not sure what I would suppose to be learning from comments such as this "I think I'm going to hang myself now, or maybe I'll just quietly slit my wrists" - How is that constructive? What can be learned from that? It was not meant to be constructive nor was it meant me be a post from which anything can be learned. Except maybe about me, to those who would have been capable of reading between the lines! People who make this kind of crap, make a great deal more money than I do. Take a look at the work by an old acquaintance of mine who used to be a sales person for IBM when I knew her here in San Francisco many years ago. http://www.lauragibson.com/ Click on "Collections". Now a major business who's work is in many of the major jewelry stores around the country. In fact, after having been a goldsmith more than 30 years, and having received multiple honors, prizes, publications in magazines and books as well as inclusions of my work in private as well as public collections as prestigious as the Smithsonian, I am still struggling to make a living and pay my bills. 2005 was my worst year EVER, and with the price of precious metals going the way they have been going the last year or so, I see it only getting worse. There is no future for me and my work in this market where garbage like "pretty necklace" is all the rage. Or where the competition are businesses like Elie International (recent post of Partnership Opportunity), who has been in business for 23 years and now carries an inventory of over 24,000 items. I have been in business longer, and I have such a pathetic inventory compared to that, it's not funny. When I see that untrained people who make this kind of crap, because they suddenly have a need and "passion" to make what they think is jewelry, I get very discouraged, and depressed. The point of my post was: I'M WORTH MORE DEAD THAN ALIVE! At least if I were dead, my wife would get to collect on my life insurance! So to all of you who don't like that, **** YOU ALL! Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#15
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A necklace I am proud of :)
Clearly I mistook your meaning.
Please accept my apologies. Regards Ben Smith "Marilee J. Layman" wrote in message ... On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:16:22 GMT, "Ben Smith" wrote: "Marilee J. Layman" wrote in message .. . It's very pretty, but you'd get better response on rec.crafts.beads. I thought that it was pretty too, and that Flic was justified in being pleased with it. I hope that she will be even more pleased with her next piece. Would it have been more acceptable to this group if it had been made of precious metal and natural gemstone beads? What determines if an item is jewellery or not? It is very easy to be snobbish about other peoples efforts, but perhaps Marilee J. Layman was commenting on other readers reactions. shrug I'm primarily a beadweaver these days, but I read this newsgroup because I used to be an engineer and I'm interested in techniques, even though the doctor will never let me do that kind of thing again. -- Marilee J. Layman http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjlayman |
#16
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A necklace I am proud of :)
On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:10:15 GMT, "Ben Smith"
wrote: Clearly I mistook your meaning. Please accept my apologies. Accepted. "Marilee J. Layman" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:16:22 GMT, "Ben Smith" wrote: "Marilee J. Layman" wrote in message . .. It's very pretty, but you'd get better response on rec.crafts.beads. I thought that it was pretty too, and that Flic was justified in being pleased with it. I hope that she will be even more pleased with her next piece. Would it have been more acceptable to this group if it had been made of precious metal and natural gemstone beads? What determines if an item is jewellery or not? It is very easy to be snobbish about other peoples efforts, but perhaps Marilee J. Layman was commenting on other readers reactions. shrug I'm primarily a beadweaver these days, but I read this newsgroup because I used to be an engineer and I'm interested in techniques, even though the doctor will never let me do that kind of thing again. -- Marilee J. Layman http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjlayman |
#17
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A necklace I am proud of :)
On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 02:39:10 GMT, mbstevens
wrote: Peter W.. Rowe, wrote: First, let me state catagorically that jewelry made with beading techniques is most certainly within the topic and scope of this newsgroup. Discussing such work here is entirely acceptable within the terms of the group charter. Yep. And may I add that the image was posted several days before the Real Power, Kojo, declared that multi-strand necklaces were going to be the hot item this year. If this is the Today guy, I think it's Cojo. Flic may outsell all of us! -- Marilee J. Layman http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjlayman |
#18
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**PETER** A necklace I am proud of :)
Did you read this all the way to the end before you approved it?
On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:10:10 GMT, Abrasha wrote: mehughes wrote: I'm not sure what I would suppose to be learning from comments such as this "I think I'm going to hang myself now, or maybe I'll just quietlyslit my wrists" - How is that constructive? What can be learned from that? It was not meant to be constructive nor was it meant me be a post from which anything can be learned. Except maybe about me, to those who would have been capable of reading between the lines! People who make this kind of crap, make a great deal more money than I do. Take a look at the work by an old acquaintance of mine who used to be a sales person for IBM when I knew her here in San Francisco many years ago. http://www.lauragibson.com/ Click on "Collections". Now a major business who's work is in many of the major jewelry stores around the country. In fact, after having been a goldsmith more than 30 years, and having received multiple honors, prizes, publications in magazines and books as well as inclusions of my work in private as well as public collections as prestigious as the Smithsonian, I am still struggling to make a living and pay my bills. 2005 was my worst year EVER, and with the price of precious metals going the way they have been going the last year or so, I see it only getting worse. There is no future for me and my work in this market where garbage like "pretty necklace" is all the rage. Or where the competition are businesses like Elie International (recent post of Partnership Opportunity), who has been in business for 23 years and now carries an inventory of over 24,000 items. I have been in business longer, and I have such a pathetic inventory compared to that, it's not funny. When I see that untrained people who make this kind of crap, because they suddenly have a need and "passion" to make what they think is jewelry, I get very discouraged, and depressed. The point of my post was: I'M WORTH MORE DEAD THAN ALIVE! At least if I were dead, my wife would get to collect on my life insurance! So to all of you who don't like that, **** YOU ALL! Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com -- Marilee J. Layman http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjlayman |
#19
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**PETER** A necklace I am proud of :)
On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:00:44 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Marilee J. Layman"
wrote: Did you read this all the way to the end before you approved it? Yes. Carefully, and with interest. To be sure, I can't say I greatly approve of the profanity used, but it'snot prohibited in the charter, and frankly, were I writing such a post, I might well have felt inclined to say much the same. Though I might have worded it differently. Yes, it's an angry and rather depressing or depressed posting, but it seems a pertenant part of the ongoing discussion, and in fact, a whole new aspectto that discussion. Perhaps even the most valuable point made yet in the thread. Frankly, I'm glad Abrasha shared the increased insight into his prior postings and reactions to the other posts, explaining just why he feels as he does. And given that, I must say that I feel I owe Abrasha a sincere apology for misinterpreting his prior posts. I'd thought them dismissive or eliteist regarding beginner work, and now see I was wrong, totally, about what he was reacting to. So Abrasha, I apologize. Please forgive my lack of understanding. Really. And I sympathize as well. You're in a position faced by many artists with integrity in their work, as well as the large number of other small retailers faced with things like competition from Walmart or Costco, including many jewelers who now find their livelihood threatened by mass marking of cheap imports, knockoff copies of good designs for less, and a general perfusion of mediocrity into the marketplace that makes it more difficult for people to sell quality work. I'm reminded of similar concerns expressed already when I was in grad school in the 80s, by my major professor. One of his practices was to totally refrain, despite numerous requests, from doing the common workshops one finds, including those short courses at places like Haystack, or the like, some of which have fine reputations. He felt that as a professor at a full university level program, he has students who were paying full tuition for multiple years to learn from him, and that for him to go do workshops giving away even a small part of that knowledge to those taking that quick route, would be a conflict of interest, against the interests of those full time students who'd then have to compete with the workshop students. As such, on the very few occasions when he'd bend his own rule (such as a workshop in CAD at a SNAG conference one year) he'd require participants to the workshop to be those who already held a find arts degree of some sort, ie those who had already "paid their dues". He illustrated these concerns with those semi pros or advanced hobbyists who'd take a couple workshops, learn one or two neat tech tricks and dive rightinto production without any training or real care in actually making new work,but rather just doing lots of what they'd been shown. We see such folks doing PMC work, granulation, Mokume, wire wrapping, and who knows what all other narrow technical niches, and sometimes doing them very well, but to the exclusion of a full understanding of the field or even the history of what they are working with. And having learned it not by actual research and experimentation, but by being spoon fed the methods, they also end up being the ones who post oddly simple tech questions to this group or Orchid, on matters that they couldeasily solve themselves with just a little experimentation. But they've never learned to think this way, wanting to be simply shown the answers someone else has already found, rather than earning their own way to the knowledge. Suchpeople are common on the craft show circuit, and on the web and other sales venues, often sell for less than those truly comitted to doing worthy unique work, and take dollars away from those more committed artists. The lack of training these people have in design, art history, and arts ethics often means they lacksome of the inhibitions in doing yet more knock offs, and they sometimes, ironically, seem more prolific and sucessful than the much more fully trained graduates of full arts training programs. And one unfortunate consequence is that even the well trained artists with really good work, may have to downgrade their own work ethics just to be able to compete in the marketplace with the poorer workout there. It seems to me that this situation is not going to change markedly. Thislevel of competition, whether from some well meaning but unsophisticated beginner, some marketer who's sole aim is to make lots of money without regard to quality, or simply from the big boys like Costco and Wal mart, is simply There now, and won't go away. So the question for many of us then becomes one of how to compete. It's no longer, it seems, enough to just produce really good work and hope the world finds it's way to your door. There's so much info out there flooding the awareness of the public that a merely hopeful artists is going to get lost in the clutter. What we need is to consider how to compete, and how to better market ourselves. We need to increase the number of consumers who understand the difference between really good work and kitschy or commonplace but still attractive work, and are willing to pay for the difference. And these people then need tobe able to find us. So then. Here's the question for the group. How can someone like Abrasha, or other fine artists who's integrity and skills with their craft lead them to put quality first, and thus produce a really high end product, but in perhaps more limited quantitites, suceed in today's marketplace? It's not enough to just have a good web site, since as anyone who's looked at Abrasha's can see, he's done that part already. So what else? Peter Rowe |
#20
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A necklace I am proud of :)
Marilee J. Layman wrote:
If this is the Today guy, I think it's Cojo. Thought that was that Stephen King dog. |
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