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  #21  
Old July 18th 04, 12:31 AM
William Black
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"Jack Schmidling" wrote in message
...

Where I am stuck is setting stones into the cast broach. I also gave up

in
disgust, trying to hard solder a hanger on the piece I am practicing on.

I
cast a 1" diameter bar that I cleaned up in the lathe and have something
like a fat nickle. I drilled a hole in one edge and put the ends loop of
silver wire and attempted to solder this in using Xeasy solder and Handy
Flux. Nothing would make the solder ball wet the piece. So I just TIXed

it
and got past that evil with another evil.


You're not getting the big lump of silver hot enough, it needs to glow
slightly orange all over.

But back to setting stones, I came up with an approach that works but is
tedious and not quite as pretty as I would like. I would like to know if
this makes sense and/or a better way.

I did the 'Stone Setting for Beginners' course at UCE. Setting stones in a
claw mount is none trivial and requires special tools and training. The
course I did lasted 40 hours, cost £350 ($800) and had a tools and
matterials bill of about £200 ($380) on top. It was hard work and at the
end of it I could make a stab at simple claw and channel mounts with some
degree of sucess.

The first day and a half of the course was grinding the stock hand tools to
fit your hand and make the cutting edges suitable for the job.

It's not what you'd call a 'teach yourself' skill.

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government


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  #22  
Old July 18th 04, 01:54 AM
Jack Schmidling
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"P.W. Rowe,"

Or, you could spend a few bucks and actually buy a book.....


As I said earlier, I no longer buy books unless I can thumb through them or
know it is a book I want.

If you can find a Borders or Barnes and Noble book store around
somewhere.........


"Somewhere" is a 3 hour drive.

You simply didn't get it hot enough. Hard soldering a small piece onto a
larger thick piece in silver can be problematic, since silver is such a

good
heat conductor. In your case, you pretty much didn't need to be heating

the
jump ring hardly at all.....


Fact is, I gave up on the jump ring and just tried getting the solder to
flow period...
I put away the micro torch and got out the Ace Hardware propane torch,
insulated the piece from the vice with two pieces of ceramic and then gave
up.

3. Your metal wasn't clean in the first place. The flux dissolves

oxides, but
it won't help if there's grease or dirt on the joint. The metal should be
clean and bright.....


Is this a chemical clean or mechanical? Like some kind of acid or wire
brush/file clean?

Try it again.


Roger.

If you did this with a good silver solder, soldering silver wire, rather

than
solder wire, the appearance would be much better, as the solder would

visually
blend in. also, such a solder joint is strong enough that you don't need

to
drill holes. it can be a butt joint......


Hmmmm.. I like that but I need to solve the basic problem first. Assuming I
do, keeping all the butts standing while soldering seems like a monumental
problem.

But as you've
discovered, and as we've been trying to tell you all along, there are

aesthetic
issues connected with Tix and other soft solders. They just don't look as
good.....


I am not at the aesthetic point yet where color match would bother me. I'm
talking about slobbering solder where I don't want it and no way to get rid
of it.

Also, when it comes to setting the stone, you'll find the solder wire to
be a lot stiffer and harder to bend properly, than is sterling or fine

silver....

I was saving that question for later. I was surprised at how stiff the
solder wire is and please with the idea that it would take quite an effort
to accidentally knock a stone off.

Would I need a heavier gage in steriling for the same strength?
On one of these I notched it to bend in the right place but the second one
didn't require this because I moved them farther out.

Roger on the rest.

js


--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/weekly.htm
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  #23  
Old July 18th 04, 02:19 AM
Peter W.. Rowe,
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On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:54:37 -0700, in hô Jack Schmidling wrote:


"P.W. Rowe,"

Or, you could spend a few bucks and actually buy a book.....


As I said earlier, I no longer buy books unless I can thumb through them or
know it is a book I want.


Ok. be stubborn if you like. But your making your taks harder. Kinda
shooting yourself in the foot... Do I need to remind you that you can easily
buy books online from any number of sources, and that many of these will accept
a return if it turns out not to be what you wish? this all requires the risk,
perhaps, of the cost of postage and the lengthy journey to your mailbox...



Fact is, I gave up on the jump ring and just tried getting the solder to
flow period...
I put away the micro torch and got out the Ace Hardware propane torch,
insulated the piece from the vice with two pieces of ceramic and then gave
up.


vise? what in the dickens are you doing with a vise in all this? Place the
work loosely on a charcoal block, fire brick, or other insulating surface.
Most ceramic, by the way, is a good heat conductor, and will chill the work.
So are graphite blocks, so don't use such. the fire bricks, charcoal blocks
(in a pinch you can even use standard charcoal briquettes, though they burn
more than a jewelers version would do) are the opposite, reflecting heat back
to the work rather than draining it.

3. Your metal wasn't clean in the first place. The flux dissolves

oxides, but
it won't help if there's grease or dirt on the joint. The metal should be
clean and bright.....


Is this a chemical clean or mechanical? Like some kind of acid or wire
brush/file clean?


Just mechanical is fine. A bit of steel wook or abrasive paper to remove any
tarnish is sufficient. Same as with electronics soldering with soft solders.


How 'bout a simple experiment first. Take a Small piece of silver, and put a
bit of flux on it, and then a bit of solder on the flux. Just melt the flux
onto the silver, to get an idea of how hot it needs to be and how it will look.
It may help to support the piece slightly above your work surface so the torch
flame can play under the work as well as on top. gives more even heating.
larger finishing nails, or slightly opened up cotter pins (plain steel, not
galvanized or plated, please) placed on the soldering surface can act as an
effective means to support the work this way. Use a size of silver scrap that
you can pretty much cover entirely with the flame of the torch. for this first
experiement. Then work up to making actual joints with silver solder.


Hmmmm.. I like that but I need to solve the basic problem first. Assuming I
do, keeping all the butts standing while soldering seems like a monumental
problem.


No. It's a design problem. You aproach it by either coming up with holding
jigs, or finding assembly methods that make it easy. one simple way is to make
the prongs by taking two lengths of wire, longer than needed for the prongs,
and laying they out as an X. solder them together where the cross. Now bend
the legs up at a right angle a suitable distance from that joint, and trim them
all to the same length. What you now have is an assembly that, laid on the
sheet metal with the points down, is four pieces of wire at locations that can
be easily adjusted, held stable in position. All you then need to do is solder
where those points contact the sheet (wiithout melting the wire assembly, of
course), and then clip off the upper X portion that holds them together. But
your original method with the drill holes does produce a stronger joint, even
with silver solder, and is good especially if you're going to do additional
fabrication, since then subsequent solder joints don't risk moving the wire
prongs.



I am not at the aesthetic point yet where color match would bother me. I'm
talking about slobbering solder where I don't want it and no way to get rid
of it.


Well, that's a cruder issue than just color match, but it IS an aesthetic issue
nevertheless. Silver solder, for what it's worth, does this less, since it
becomes more fluid when molten, and capilary action draws it well into the
joint. excess which flows onto the sheet will be a thinner layer. Depending
on the grade of solder used, sometimes it need not be cleaned off if it's not
too much extra.



I was saving that question for later. I was surprised at how stiff the
solder wire is and please with the idea that it would take quite an effort
to accidentally knock a stone off.


True. but it also means that in initially setting the stone, you face greater
risk of chipping the stone when bending the prong over it. remember that the
wire has a bit of memory, and when bent, springs back a bit. So you bend the
tip over the stone till it aught to be tight, and let go, only to find it
springing back and then the stone is still loose. Getting a prong made of
springy wire tight is a lot more difficult than doing so with a softer metal.
This is true even if one uses a heaver guage wire in the softter metal in order
to get sufficient strength, which you might need to do if the prongs are long.
Idieally, the prongs should connect to the setting just below the girdle of the
stone, so that the portion holding the stone is not at the end of a long
length of wire. That way, catching the prong during wear exerts less leverage
on the prong which might bend it back.


Would I need a heavier gage in steriling for the same strength?
On one of these I notched it to bend in the right place but the second one
didn't require this because I moved them farther out.


Designing the setting so that you must at least slightly notch the wire will
give you stronger settings. it helps define just where the prong bends, so the
bend over the stone conforms more closely to the shape of the girdle and
facets. that holds better, and makes it harder for things like fabrics, etc,
to catch on the prongs and pull them back. Bending a prong that's not notched
tends to create a gradual bend that forms as the stone is functioning as a
fulcrum, rather than the metal bending because that's where it's weakest. The
latter is greatly preferable with all but perhaps diamonds, and even then,
usually one wants the prong shaped so that in bending, minimal pressure is
applied to the girdle of the stone. You'll be surprised at how easy it can be
to chip even durable hard stones when bending prongs over the girdle if one has
not properly prepared the prong first to control where and how it bends. But
that all gets into the whole art of stone setting, virtually a profession all
by itself. We'd probably best get you comfortable with just ordinary silver
soldering first... (falls into the learning to walk before learning to ride a
bike catagory.)

Peter
  #24  
Old July 18th 04, 02:24 AM
Jack Schmidling
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"P.W. Rowe,"

I am assuming that Jack's setup does not yet include that
degree of polishing equipment......


Good assumption. It's spelled Dremmel... Dremel?.

However, here is an anecdote of how I keep trying on the cheap...

A friend of my wife gave here a flex tool to use with the Dremel but I could
never find a use for it. The Dremel is used every day in the shop for an
unrelated task and I thought it would be nice to have a tool in the lab
without disrupting the other program. Besides, the Dremel is too fast for
most anything but grinding.

Went through the junk box, found the perfect motor and spent several hours,
designing, planning, milling, turning and came up with an adapter for the
flex tool.

Hung it over the bench where I am now futzing with jewelry, put in the
little buffing wheel, turned on the motor and the buffing wheel spun off and
rolled across the lab floor.

How long did it take you to figure out the problem?

I knew instantly.... the motor rotates the wrong way and as far as I know,
there is no way to reverse a brush motor. It is totally useless for
anything but the wire brush and grinding wheels.

js


--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/weekly.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com



  #25  
Old July 18th 04, 02:40 AM
Peter W.. Rowe,
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On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:24:10 -0700, in hô Jack Schmidling wrote:



Good assumption. It's spelled Dremmel... Dremel?.


Just one M, if I recall, but the brand is unimportant. The tools are those
small, flashlight sized hand grinders, some with variable speed. Sears makes a
version, and there are numerous even cheaper copies out there. I mentioned the
brand name since many hardware stores seem to stock the various small cutters
and polishing attachments made for that brand. It's a slightly pricey way to
buy those small bits, cutters, and polishing tools, as they're a good deal
cheaper from the regular jewelry tools suppliers. but maybe not as handy for
picking up just a few to try next time your in town. You don't actually need
the tool to work with those brushes. you could even use them in a plain old
electric drill. It will be slower, though, and the size of the drill chuck
might get in the way. The pros would be using a fordom flex shaft, or similar
flexible shaft tool, rather than the small Dremel type grinders.



Went through the junk box, found the perfect motor and spent several hours,
designing, planning, milling, turning and came up with an adapter for the
flex tool.

Hung it over the bench where I am now futzing with jewelry, put in the
little buffing wheel, turned on the motor and the buffing wheel spun off and
rolled across the lab floor.

How long did it take you to figure out the problem?

I knew instantly.... the motor rotates the wrong way and as far as I know,
there is no way to reverse a brush motor. It is totally useless for
anything but the wire brush and grinding wheels.


Too bad the motor shaft doesn't extend from both sides of the motor (as do some
fan motors, for example. Then the solution is simple. Mount the shaft on the
other end of the motor.

Your solution is fun, but not the best one of the sort. Charles Lewton-Brains
wonderful little self published book, "cleap thrills in the tool shop", (which
he sells direct, and who you can find selling his books on ebay) describes
doing much the same thing with an old unwanted kitchen blender. That device
then gives him multiple speeds... Now, I've not seen the contraption, but I
sure like the concept.

By the way, your wrong direction shaft can still work with any mounted point,
buff, or the like which is sold permanently mounted, rather than with a screw
on mandrel. Many of the small brushes, and felt buffs are sold this way. Only
those screw ended mandrels, and steel cutters and drill bits are intrinsically
limited to only one directon of rotation. One can get, for example, a snap on
mandrel that accepts little sanding disks with a brass center hub having a
square opening that fits the snap on mandre. Available in a wide range of
grits and types. very useful, and turns in either direction just fine.

Also, "mr. machinist." you CAN get reverse threaded screws, taps and dies, and
the like, if you wish. you could make yourself a mandrel designed for the
reverse rotation direction, if you wanted. There might even be such a thing
out there already. For larger buffing motors, of course, tapered threaded
spindles are standard, so that one can use both sides of a buffing motor...

cheers

Peter.
  #26  
Old July 18th 04, 06:21 AM
Carl West
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m wrote:

P.W. Rowe, moderator, r.c.j. wrote:

a good way to drive everyone in
the neighborhood quite mad due to the noise...



There were about 20 people in my silversmithing course.
If we didn't all lose significant hearing I'd be surprised.
The kind of shock your holding-hand experiences is similar to
the kind that gives "white hand" to jackhammer operators,
but I've never heard of a silversmith getting it, so it must
be significantly less severe.


I've done a fair bit of steel armor in my time. Sunk and raised, both.
Early on I started using ear protection and a glove with extra foam in
the thumb and forefinger. Makes the work a LOT easier.

I've seen a photo of the workmen hammering out the sheets for the Statue
of Liberty. No ear protection, and every one of them looked like he was
wincing even though it was hammers-down during the photograph.
--


If you try to 'reply' to me without fixing the dot, your reply
will go into a 'special' mailbox reserved for spam. See below.


--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me


"Clutter"? This is an object-rich environment.
  #27  
Old July 18th 04, 06:21 AM
Carl 1 Lucky Texan
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It's too bad you found nothing helpful at the library. I think you would
really enjoy Tim McCreight's book as a good novice/intermediate
reference and guide.

here's one source(about 2/3rds down the page);

The Complete Metalsmith

http://www.tsijeweltools.com/merchan...l?id=11&step=2


Carl
1 Lucky Texan


Jack Schmidling wrote:
Roger on all. Now for a more simple starter, I am back to the broach, pure
silver sounds like the ticket.

I went to the local library yesterday and could not find a single useful
book on jewelry so, for good or evil, this is going to have to be my source
of info.

Where I am stuck is setting stones into the cast broach. I also gave up in
disgust, trying to hard solder a hanger on the piece I am practicing on. I
cast a 1" diameter bar that I cleaned up in the lathe and have something
like a fat nickle. I drilled a hole in one edge and put the ends loop of
silver wire and attempted to solder this in using Xeasy solder and Handy
Flux. Nothing would make the solder ball wet the piece. So I just TIXed it
and got past that evil with another evil.

But back to setting stones, I came up with an approach that works but is
tedious and not quite as pretty as I would like. I would like to know if
this makes sense and/or a better way.

I put the nickle in the lathe and drilled a small hole in the center and
with a countersink, made a nest for a 12 mm SRB so that is sat just just
above the girdle. I poked a tool bit into the face just at the 12mm point
and made a circle to use for drilling 4 holes around the stone.

Into these holes I soldered short pieces of the Xeasy (it's the only silver
wire I have on hand) using TIX. After trimming and cleaning up the ends,
these became the prongs to hold the stone. It works but I can't seem to
keep the solder inconspicuous and cleaning up after the prongs are on is a
big problem.

Any thoughts.. better ideas?

js




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  #28  
Old July 18th 04, 06:21 AM
Carl West
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Jack Schmidling wrote:


I thought copper melted at a significantly higher temp than silver?
Wouldn't this increase the melt point of silver if added?


Jack,

keywords to guide you to info that'll help:
eutectic
phase diagram
liquidus
solidus

I was active on a brewing list about twelve years ago, I think I
recognize your name from there.



--


If you try to 'reply' to me without fixing the dot, your reply
will go into a 'special' mailbox reserved for spam. See below.


--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me


"Clutter"? This is an object-rich environment.
  #29  
Old July 18th 04, 06:21 AM
Jack Schmidling
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"Peter W.. Rowe,"

vise? what in the dickens are you doing with a vise in all this? Place

the
work loosely on a charcoal block, fire brick.....


I was using a fire brick but thought if I just held it in the very corner of
the vice, it would sink less heat. Can't win em all.


How 'bout a simple experiment first. Take a Small piece of silver, and

put a
bit of flux on it, and then a bit of solder on the flux. Just melt the

flux
onto the silver, to get an idea of how hot it needs to be and how it will

look....

I will try this tomorrow but that reminds me of what I read about the
HandyFlux somewhere. It referred to a chart that showed a relationship
between temp and color of the flux but there was no chart.

I gather it wants to be clear but like solder, it can get hot without the
part getting hot. I was able to get a ball or two to stick but nothing like
wetting the surface so far.

But
that all gets into the whole art of stone setting, virtually a profession

all
by itself. We'd probably best get you comfortable with just ordinary

silver
soldering first...


Frankly, the more we discuss this, the more it seems that the evils of soft
soldering are more in the mind of those who know how to do hard soldering.
For now, it seems like a bandaid I can live with but I am clueless as to
setting stones and cutting them is my bag and it would be fun not to hve to
buy settings. So if you can point me to a book on this "limited" subject, I
will order it.

BTW, I just had a brainstorm for making my broach. I call it a broach but
I really mean a setting for multiple stones that can be soldered en mass to
something like a chalice.

I have never used it but a friend of my wife makes really neat stuff with
polymer clay. I can fiddle and futz till I get what I want then bake it in
the toaster oven and voila... a free form pattern for sand casting.

js

--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/weekly.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com









  #30  
Old July 18th 04, 06:21 AM
Jack Schmidling
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"Peter W.. Rowe,"

Also, "mr. machinist." you CAN get reverse threaded screws, taps and

dies, and
the like, if you wish. you could make yourself a mandrel designed for the
reverse rotation direction, if you wanted....


Doesn't help with the carbide burrs. Maybe you don't use them much but it
is what I have been using for notching prongs.

I like the blender idea. Just so happen to be in the market for a new one.
I bet the square shaft will fit my 5/6" to 1/8" square adapter I made for
the flex shaft.

However, this time I will check the rotation before I jump into it.

js


--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/weekly.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com



 




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