Knots and Surgery

Once in a long while, knots used in surgery have been discussed here.
Knots, that I hadn't see before, are shown he
http://www.laparoscopyhospital.com/Chapter6.htm .

Kind of remind me of some fishing knots. smile - Brian.

(Brian Grimley) wrote:

Once in a long while, knots used in surgery have been discussed here.
Knots, that I hadn't see before, are shown he
http://www.laparoscopyhospital.com/Chapter6.htm .

Ah, you find yet another knot gem! Good show!!
Note that the image of the completed Reefed-Surgeon's knot
(to coin a name) has the 2nd throw wrongly oriented (it's
right in the tying steps)--Granny-like.
As for the earlier knots, I'm not sure I can follow the
purely verbal description to completion.

(-;

(Dan Lehman) wrote:

} Note that the image of the completed Reefed-Surgeon's knot
} (to coin a name) has the 2nd throw wrongly oriented (it's
} right in the tying steps)--Granny-like.

Alton Brown [on the Food Channel] recommended a Surgeon's Knot for trussing
up some sort of rolled roast, and he, too, did a granny-surgeons. [which I
found surprising because he's sort of the geek-of-the-kitchen and I'd have
thought he'd have more carefully researched the knot, considering how
carefully he *DID* describe making a granny. [he almost got me convinced
that the granny-was *was* the right way to tie a surgeon's knot!

/bernie\
--
Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers
Pearisburg, VA
-- Too many people, too few sheep --

Bernie Cosell wrote:

(Dan Lehman) wrote:

Note that the image of the completed Reefed-Surgeon's knot
(to coin a name) has the 2nd throw wrongly oriented (it's
right in the tying steps)--Granny-like.

Alton Brown [on the Food Channel] recommended a Surgeon's Knot for trussing
up some sort of rolled roast, and he, too, did a granny-surgeons. [which I
found surprising because he's sort of the geek-of-the-kitchen and I'd have
thought he'd have more carefully researched the knot, considering how
carefully he *DID* describe making a granny. [he almost got me convinced
that the granny-was *was* the right way to tie a surgeon's knot!


Since we are now talking lacing, trussing or binding, the following
has been in the back of my mind for a while and I would like your
opinions.

The topic of the websites is lacing conductors.

Here, http://www.dairiki.org/hammond/cable-lacing-howto/ , at the
bottom of the page, it says, "Lacing may also be started with a square
knot, followed by two lock stitches." When I looked at the diagram it
is a Square (Reef) Knot.

Here, http://www.tpub.com/neets/book4/12q.htm , it says "Single lace
can be started with a square knot and at least two marling hitches
drawn tightly." But, when I looked at fig. 2-41, although the diagram
calls it a Square Knot, it is a Granny Knot.

My first impression was that it was an obvious mistake in drawing fig.
2-14. However, when I laced a nylon cord over a cardboard tube, and
aligned the knot and Marline Hitches as shown in fig. 2-14c, I noticed
the following.

1. The Reef Knot was more stressed with the running end coming off at
90 degrees then the Granny Knot.

2. And, further, it was important to the amount of stress on the Reef
Knot if you tied it "left over right and right over left" or if you
tied it "right over left and left over right". I mean, the running end
had to exit the Reef Knot as shown in the diagram at the "dairiki"
site or the stress on the Reef Knot was much greater.

3. With the Granny Knot, it seemed more obvious when the running end
came out of the Granny Knot correctly, that is, in the direction of
the lacing.

Looking at the Reef and Granny Knot snugged up with two Marling
Hitches, I wondered, in this application (a binding application), if
the Granny Knot was superior, or at least equal to the Reef Knot. In
fact, I wonder if the Granny Knot (or the "Surgeon's Granny Knot") is
superior for trussing a rolled roast.

I look forward to your opinions. - Brian.

Ps. I guess, in fact, there may be no significant difference in this
application.

(Brian Grimley) wrote in message . com...

Note that the image of the completed Reefed-Surgeon's knot
(to coin a name) has the 2nd throw wrongly oriented
...
considering how carefully he *DID* describe making a granny.
he almost got me convinced that the granny-was *was*
the right way to tie a surgeon's knot!
...
But, when I looked at fig. 2-41, although the diagram
calls it a Square Knot, it is a Granny Knot.
...
I wondered, in this application (a binding application), if
the Granny Knot was superior, ...


hi there, 'long time no see'

my two cents of opinion:

when a surgeon's knot is loaded, the fist (double half) knot in a
surgeons knot has to slip a little before the second half knot
tightens
or in other words: you have to load the knot to tighten it (and that
loosens the binding it is intended for)

some options to prevent that loosening the knot/binding/hitch (while
tightening, or later, when loaded):

# referring to the link in Brian's first post in this thread :

tie the second half knot as a 'granny', and it will hold without that
slip ... (in my limited try out, not in surgeon's twine)
and when you consider the second and third half knot as a proper
square knot to secure the first double half knot, there is nothing
'wrong'

# referring to a knot suggested by Dan Lehmann in an earlier thread:
http://groups.google.nl/groups?hl=nl...com%26rnum%3D3

a reverse surgeon's knot: first tie a half knot and then tie a double
half knot, you can tighten that without loading the knot, (later)
slipping of the initial half knot is not occurring / not nessecary for
a stable knot
I like this reverse (wrong?) surgeon's knot

# referring to Bernie's observation on a rolled toast:

start trussing with a granny and the granny tumbles into (a half turn
and) two half hitches when you load it; this (intended?) hitch
tightens around the toast when you continue binding
(this does not work when lacing wires or cardboard tubes
and when you consider this a hitch, instead of a grannny, there is
nothing 'wrong'

# referring to Brian's second link on lacing wire branches:

any knot to start a lace, enables you to tie that first pair of
(double) marlin hitches. These marlin hitches, drawn up together, take
the load
when finished, no stress is on starting knot, so start with the end
tucked between the wires will do? (it should prevent loosening when
vibrating etc)
but while tying that initial series of knots/hitches, the reef- or
granny knot is loaded in a way that causes a reef knot to fail easily,
so what is wrong with a granny to start with?
(and indead, a granny with two marlin hitches drawn up together looks
neat; no sign of the wrong granny


# referring to a 'granny like' knot on
http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~tatsujin/rope...toko/index.htm

this is considered a 'wrong' hitch? but as a start for lacing wire, it
will work
(it will do as a finish of a binding too
http://osaka70.site.ne.jp/e/rope/japanese.html
(but that is 'off topic' , and posted before
not an option for trussing roasts I suppose, but for decorative /
fanatic knot tyers?


right? wrong? these qualifications do not help thinking and
experimenting (it helps for instructions, when things are sorted out)

does this knot help thinking?

Ben

Hi Ben. It is good to see you are back posting!

(ben) wrote:

# referring to Bernie's observation on a rolled toast:

start trussing with a granny and the granny tumbles into (a half turn
and) two half hitches when you load it;

I knew that the Granny Knot would collapse into a Clove Hitch (Two
Half Hitches (ABOK #1781))around the standing part of the rope.
However, I had not realized that the "Granny Surgeon's Knot" would
collapse into the Rolling Hitch, ABOK #1856. Neat!!

Brian.

(Brian Grimley) wrote:

Here, http://www.tpub.com/neets/book4/12q.htm , it says "Single lace
can be started with a square knot and at least two marling hitches
drawn tightly."

I think that a commercial fisher, net-maker, would use the Seizing Hitch
(_ABOK_#1680 in reverse--that image, working left-to-right along the rope,
perferably wrapping with spirals), a doubled version of which makes a good
secure start--a tight binder. It takes one more wrap than the Marline
Hitch. (I note that although Ashley has "Marling" in the index (p.614),
at both places cited he actually uses "marline".)

I look forward to your opinions. - Brian.

And we, your discoveries!

(-;