Counting Ashley (_ABOK_)

In discussing things with a knotty associate some time ago, I was
exasperated by his repetition of the oft' parroted "over 3900 knots"
re _ABOK_. Esp. in light of our area of interest--practical, even
"Outdoor" knots, this number was ridiculous. Realizing how often
this utterance comes up, I saved my outburst for its own repetition.
Voila:

--------------------------------------------------------------------
WHAT COUNTS AS KNOTS

You persist with balderdash in:

"The Ashley Book of Knots, ... , contains nearly 4,000 knots,
and still only scratches the surface."

I reacted: ARRRRRRGHGHGHGHG&Y%#$%##@^%%^*&^!
There are NOT NOT NOT anywhere near that oft'-quoted total!
And I tried to clear the fog with:

"Simplistic claims for ABOK having 'over 3900 knots' are
based on the illustration ID #s, many of which don't
identify knots, and many knots are illustrated more than
once; the number of actual knots, esp. practical ones,
is far smaller: e.g., only about 50 each of bends
& single-loop knots, and 100 hitches are given."

But you persisted (most dubiously here)-:

The cover of my copy states:
"with 7000 drawings representing over 3900 knots."
Can you give me a more accurate count than the publisher?

I'm disturbed that you 1) try to tell _ABOK_ by its cover
(taking a publisher's promo BS over my educated assertion!) and
2) weren't convinced by my words. Egads, ... a PUBLISHER !!!

I'll make this a separate response, since I can see it being of
use to others who parrot this nonsense--even those who own the
cited book, have cracked its cover, and should well know better.

1) The last #'d image in _ABOK_ is #3854.
(Note that #s 3844-49 aren't of knots.)

2) Most of Ch.41 (Decorative Marlingspike Seamanship), #s 3463..3854
are of what you wouldn't consider as "knots"; and many of the knots
included are listed (also) in earlier #'d images as noted (e.g., the
Constrictor (#3853) and the Crossing-Knots #1193 (#3851) & #1151--not
"1152"--(#3854) are listed previously).

3) Similarly, but for particular seizings & whippings, little of
Ch.40 (Practical Marlingspike Seamanship) (#s 3083..3462) is about
"knots", and several of the included knots occur previously (again
the Constrictor, e.g.).

4) Then we continue to back up through Ch.39 (Solid Sinnets), 38
(Plat Sinnets), 37 (Chain & Crown Sinnets), 36 (Odd Splices), 35
(Eye Splices), 34 (Long & Short Splices), 33 (Tricks and Puzzles),
& 32 (Square Knotting (macrame')). So, #s 3854-2484 = 1,370 #'d
images yet to consider, roughly. And similar reductions are in
order for other chapters, as I don't think that you want to count
button knots, turksheads, multi-strand lanyard knots, and the like
as the sort of "knots" to which you're speaking.

5) Further reduction comes by eliminating repetition, as indicated
above. E.g., the Clove Hitch has 31 citations in the index, not
all of which are attached to image #s directly (as the item) but
some are (note that p.71 is a bogus citation; but three uncited
case DO attach to images: p.305(#1805), 314(#1887), & 318(#1936)!);
the Constrictor has 13 citations, the Bowline a dozen, and so on.
Or, to look at it another way, most of Ch.1 (On Knots) is either
#'d non-knots or knots shown later, and most of the knots that are
featured by use in Ch.2 (Occupational Knots) reappear in a later
chapter on each knot's respective class (hitch, bend, loopknot)
--taking out most of #s 1..513; and many of the Ch.24 (Ring Hitches)
also see duty in Ch.21 (Hitches to Spar & Rail...) and even in
Ch.23 (Hitches to Stake and Post, Pile and Bollard); and even
some loopknots are put forward also as "hitches".

Now, I hope that you don't want me to make a precise or even
approximate count--although I already included some hint of doing
that for hitches & bends(?) (which number was around 100, not ten
times that).

..:. If you must give some mention of number of knots
(out of the infinite universe of them), you could say:

There are hundreds of knots (the oft'quoted figure of over
three thousand greatly exagerates the book's contents), ... .

and thereby set the record straight, instead of propagating nonsense.

(-:

(Dan Lehman) wrote in message m...

In discussing things with a knotty associate some time ago, I was
exasperated by his repetition of the oft' parroted "over 3900 knots"
....
and thereby set the record straight, instead of propagating nonsense.

(-:

hi Dan,

OK
you are right (as always (-;
and clear (this time ;-)

and indeed, this newsgroup is the place to set the record straight

although it seems fighting a losing battle;
the statement of "nearly 4,000 knots" is even in rec.crafts.knots FAQ:

----How many knots are there and can you patent them?----
"Many books say there are about 4000 in the literature, probably
because Clifford Ashley has nearly that many in his knot book. There
are actually infinitely many variations ..."

I like your personal story,
you even pointed out your intensions and what has upset you
and I appreciate your continuing effort to keep us keen / sharp
(is there a way to express that I do not intend this ironically?)

thanks Dan,

Ben