Dremel Versatip for Soldering Stained Glass

What are you, like 15 years old and have to argue every point made by
everyone that has actually lived the experience you are trying to guess at?
we have been telling you it won't work and in the amount of time we,
collectively, including you with your inquiries have spent , we could have
earned far more than the minor pittance it would have cost you to purchase
the right tool and quit wasting everyone's time. buzz off if you can't learn
from the responses given to your questions you child of a teen brain! m

A"Philip Lewis" wrote in message
...
Andy Dingley writes:
Philip Lewis writes:
Heat is heat...
And 30W of it isn't enough.

I don't know the physics involved well enough to argue the point.
Are all 30W elements the same, or is there a conversion factor?

like in light bulbs:
A 60W incandescent lightbulb converts to light and to heat.
a 15W flourescent bulb is more efficient at converting the energy to
light, and therefore is as bright as a 60W bulb at 25% the wattage.

I think, in a closed box (with the box absorbing all the light and
converting it to heat) the 15W bulb would only yield 25% of the heat
that the 60W does.... so If the iron represents 100% (or near)
conversion of the the energy to heat (I don't recall seeing an iron
emitting visible spectrum radiation. , then knowing that 30W is not
enough is useful, Thanks.


--
be safe.
flip
Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?
Remove origin of the word spam from address to reply (leave "+")

"Philip Lewis" wrote in message
...
Andy Dingley writes:
Philip Lewis writes:
Heat is heat...
And 30W of it isn't enough.

I don't know the physics involved well enough to argue the point.
Are all 30W elements the same, or is there a conversion factor?

like in light bulbs:
A 60W incandescent lightbulb converts to light and to heat.
a 15W flourescent bulb is more efficient at converting the energy to
light, and therefore is as bright as a 60W bulb at 25% the wattage.

I think, in a closed box (with the box absorbing all the light and
converting it to heat) the 15W bulb would only yield 25% of the heat
that the 60W does.... so If the iron represents 100% (or near)
conversion of the the energy to heat (I don't recall seeing an iron
emitting visible spectrum radiation. , then knowing that 30W is not
enough is useful, Thanks.



Please! We don't need Stephen Hawking here.... go buy a 100w SG
soldering iron already. Spend all this free time on your design instead.
Have some fun.

--
JK Sinrod
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
http://www.sinrodstudios.com/
Coney Island Memories
www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories/

I'll start with an apology:

I did not make clear that my questions were an effort for me to better
understand your answers and learn more about the process and tools
used. Apparently my replies came off as being argumentative.
I apologize for this failing.

"Michele Blank" writes:
we have been telling you it won't work

I started this thread with two very specific questions:
1:Has anyone used this tool to solder came?
2:What is your opinion/observations? (on the tool being implied.)

I gave a little background on my thoughts of why I thought it
might work, and what specific concerns I had.

To date, no one has answered:
(1) they have used this tool, and (2) have found that it doesn't work.

You asked a question "why I don't I just buy the purpose tool", and I
tried to explain my reasoning. Apparently, your question was rhetorical.

There was a short side discussion of dimmers, and how they worked, and
if/when they were needed. In this JavaHut explained why he didn't use
or need a dimmer (usually).

Some folks stated that "it won't work" but didn't say why
they thought that, or indicated that they had tried the tool.

Andy Dingley had the closest reply that addressed the original question:
30W is not enough. I thanked him, and asked if all 30W irons were the
same (and tried to show why I thought it was possible that they were
not, but that it's likely they were). In hindsight, a better question
would have been: "Are all X watt irons the same?".

Since he stated that a 30W iron is not enough... knowing more info on
if some elements are better than others would help me decide which
brand/wattage of iron I will buy. I was hoping for discussion along
the lines of: "I find Brand X irons to have quicker recovery than
Brand Y" or "Don't get the 40W irons for sale, they are not
enough... go with 100-150W" etc. In your first message you mentioned
that you like the inland 100W model. I replied that that was good to
know....which was an implied "thanks for that info." Perhaps I should
have created a new thread, to make it clear that I was pursuing
different information.

If my questions seemed "childish" to you, please remember that when it
comes to the SG craft, everything that is old hat to you
(collectively), is new and exciting to me. Consequently, I'm
enthusiastic.

I'm trying to understand what I can, and the way I do that is to read,
ask questions, and then probe the answers to those questions. In my
probes, I learned a little more about dimmer use (or non-use) in the
industry, sculptural solder, that "diamond tipped glass cutters" and
Flair marking pens apparently do not work very well, got a praise of the
inland 100W, etc. All good information not relating to the original
questions. Info which I might not have learned otherwise.

I'm not arguing for the sake of argument, really, I'm just trying to
gather, understand, and extract information.

I hope that I've better explained from where I was coming.
I'll try to be more clear in the future.

--
be safe.
flip

"You can never completely understand anything by agreeing and making
definitions. Only by turning over the possibilities. [...] If I say I
know, I stop thinking. As long as I keep thinking, I come to understand."
-- From the movie "Insignificance" (1985)

On 16 Nov 2005 14:23:02 -0500, Philip Lewis
wrote:

And 30W of it isn't enough.

I don't know the physics involved well enough to argue the point.
Are all 30W elements the same, or is there a conversion factor?

There's something of a conversion factor, but not much. Electric heating
elements are all pretty efficient. However the temperature they reach is
an equilibrium between the heat going in (electricity, pretty constant)
and the heat lost by radiation and convection (increases with
temperature). They warm up until in and out flows are equal. A
physically big iron will be a _little_ colder than a tiny iron of the
same power, just because it's losing more.

You can do stained glass (small copper foil) with a 30W iron - I know,
because I've seen it done. It's also a miserable process to do and the
results are poor. You just don't have enough heat to work with
comfortably and the solder joints will have a lumpy surface. Something
with 75W or even more will give you _much_ better results and will be
easier to work with.

I use a 50W soldering iron for small electronics work, but it's
temperature controlled. I could also use a 25W or even 15W iron that was
on permanently. The difference is that the powerful controlled iron
keeps the same temperature, even when I place it on a large piece of
cold metal - the small fixed iron would drop in temperature and possibly
over-heat on a small joint. The difference is much less for stained
glass work, but I'd still rather have a big iron with plenty of excess
power and a control mechanism to keep it under control.

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 04:37:06 GMT, "Michele Blank"
wrote:

What are you, like 15 years old and have to argue every point made by
everyone that has actually lived the experience you are trying to guess at?

For all I know Philip _is_ 15 years old and has never handled a
soldering iron in his life. I'd like him to be 16 years old and
enjoying his soldering in the future, not ****ed off with some people's
attitude and walking away from the whole thing.

Ignorance is always excusable, especially if someone is bothering to
ask. We aren't _born_ knowing this stuff.

Andy Dingley writes:
You can do stained glass (small copper foil) with a 30W iron - I know,
because I've seen it done. It's also a miserable process to do
[...]
Something with 75W or even more will give you _much_ better results

Thanks Andy, that's exactly the kind of info for which I was looking.

I'll look into a heavier duty iron.

--
be safe.
flip
Remove origin of the word spam from address to reply (leave "+")

wrote in message
...
I'll start with an apology:

I did not make clear that my questions were an effort for me to better
understand your answers and learn more about the process and tools
used. Apparently my replies came off as being argumentative.
I apologize for this failing.

"Michele Blank" writes:
we have been telling you it won't work

I started this thread with two very specific questions:
1:Has anyone used this tool to solder came?
2:What is your opinion/observations? (on the tool being implied.)

I gave a little background on my thoughts of why I thought it
might work, and what specific concerns I had.

To date, no one has answered:
(1) they have used this tool, and (2) have found that it doesn't work.

You asked a question "why I don't I just buy the purpose tool", and I
tried to explain my reasoning. Apparently, your question was rhetorical.

There was a short side discussion of dimmers, and how they worked, and
if/when they were needed. In this JavaHut explained why he didn't use
or need a dimmer (usually).

Some folks stated that "it won't work" but didn't say why
they thought that, or indicated that they had tried the tool.

Andy Dingley had the closest reply that addressed the original question:
30W is not enough. I thanked him, and asked if all 30W irons were the
same (and tried to show why I thought it was possible that they were
not, but that it's likely they were). In hindsight, a better question
would have been: "Are all X watt irons the same?".

Since he stated that a 30W iron is not enough... knowing more info on
if some elements are better than others would help me decide which
brand/wattage of iron I will buy. I was hoping for discussion along
the lines of: "I find Brand X irons to have quicker recovery than
Brand Y" or "Don't get the 40W irons for sale, they are not
enough... go with 100-150W" etc. In your first message you mentioned
that you like the inland 100W model. I replied that that was good to
know....which was an implied "thanks for that info." Perhaps I should
have created a new thread, to make it clear that I was pursuing
different information.

If my questions seemed "childish" to you, please remember that when it
comes to the SG craft, everything that is old hat to you
(collectively), is new and exciting to me. Consequently, I'm
enthusiastic.

I'm trying to understand what I can, and the way I do that is to read,
ask questions, and then probe the answers to those questions. In my
probes, I learned a little more about dimmer use (or non-use) in the
industry, sculptural solder, that "diamond tipped glass cutters" and
Flair marking pens apparently do not work very well, got a praise of the
inland 100W, etc. All good information not relating to the original
questions. Info which I might not have learned otherwise.

I'm not arguing for the sake of argument, really, I'm just trying to
gather, understand, and extract information.

I hope that I've better explained from where I was coming.
I'll try to be more clear in the future.

--
be safe.
flip

"You can never completely understand anything by agreeing and making
definitions. Only by turning over the possibilities. [...] If I say I
know, I stop thinking. As long as I keep thinking, I come to understand."
-- From the movie "Insignificance" (1985)



It is the temperature of the iron's tip, not the wattage (directly) that has
anything to do with being able to solder properly. More accurately, it is
"Thermal Mass" of the iron tip at the desired temperature. The bigger the
tip, the more mass of heat, so it cools less when the tip is applied to the
lead/copper and solid solder is introduced to the joint. A small tip cannot
retain as much heat as a larger one. The wattage has to do with the
"acceptable" amount of time it takes to heat the iron tip to the required
temp. (usually 700F). 30 watts will heat an iron tip just as hot as 100
watts will, it just takes longer to get to temperature and won't recover as
fast when in use. The theory is to have a consistent iron tip temperature
so the solder melts and then cools in a predictable way.


Of course, tip size is limited by how heavy (weight wise) of an iron you
want to use and to a lesser extent on the delicacy of the project. I
basically use one iron...a 100 watt with a 1/2" tip. The iron has an
internal thermostat, and stays at 700F. Unfortunately, I burn one up every
few months due to heavy use on my part and poor QC from the manufacturer.
But that's another story.

"Moonraker" writes:
[good info on tips/thermal mass/etc deleted]

Thanks for the info Moonraker!

Unfortunately, I burn one up every few months due to heavy use on my
part and poor QC from the manufacturer. But that's another story.

Is this a well known manufacturer? You seem to indicate that you
are buying the same brand, so you must like it for some reason or another.
Does it handle/work well when it works, do you have a dozen
tips to use before you give up on the brand, or do you stick with this
manufacture since other brands fail just as often with your heavy use?

I've been looking, but havn't found any sites that review various
brands of SG equipment. (nothing at epinions, amazon, etc)

I'll have to explore some of the forums on various crafting websites.
Recently, I got distracted on WetCanvas.com for a bit... kiln making,
glass blowing, and marble making... Nice step by step on making a SG
lamp too... but no comprehensive reviews on tools.

Anyone have recommendations for other sites?

--
be safe.
flip
Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?
Remove origin of the word spam from address to reply (leave "+")