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  #21  
Old March 24th 04, 08:58 PM
Deborah M Riel
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In article ,
dkat wrote:

snip

That is what I think this tread started on. The feeling that we as
a country do not value potters and that is relevant to the group. Or at
least I think it is.

DKat


This is so true. I made a lamp. The base was wheel formed and hand
built, then wood fired. The shade was my own design--executed by me
in stained glass. I did all the design work, glazing, hours on the
wood kiln, glass work, and wiring of the lamp. I paid for the
materials, time in the studio, and firing fees. I have a degree in art
from a good art school, plus I've been studying beyond art school for
years. Someone at work asked me if my lamp was for sale. I quoted a
price of $400, and this person was visibly shocked. I work with
mathematicians who would think nothing of charging 3 or 4 times as much
as that for the same amount of hours that they invest in one of their
research projects.

I think people have an idea that art doesn't need to be valued because
they think that anyone can do it. Or maybe that it doesn't have any
value in our fast moving technological world, where the bottom line
rules. Art represents the humanity in all of us, and that seems to be
an undervalued commodity all around.

Of course, the big question is, how do we turn this around?

Deb R.
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  #22  
Old March 24th 04, 09:57 PM
Monika Schleidt
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Posts: n/a
Default



J M wrote:

I'm a female newbie to this forum, and quite dismayed that subjects can
deviate from what the site is intended for.

Since you are a newbie, maybe you should stick around for a while
before making such critical comments.


Regarding not making enough money out of pottery - well you get what you put
into it.. It's the same in any self-run business.

are you really, honestly, making your living from the "self-run
business" of pottery, wheelthrown? No other job, no partner, husband,
who earns money from a normal job? If so, i am sure there are many
people in this group who would like to know more about it.


I'm going to get back to my wheel now and do some 'work' instead of being
stuck in front of the computer all day!

This is a very arrogant statement, implying that all of us spend our
time in front of the computer instead of doing "work". Most of us in
this group don't talk like that to one another.

Monika



--
Monika Schleidt

www.schleidt.org/mskeramik
(If you wish to send me a mail, please leave out the number after my name!)

  #23  
Old March 24th 04, 11:16 PM
wayneinkeywest
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



This is so true. I made a lamp. The base was wheel formed and hand
built, then wood fired. The shade was my own design--executed by me
in stained glass. I did all the design work, glazing, hours on the
wood kiln, glass work, and wiring of the lamp. I paid for the
materials, time in the studio, and firing fees. I have a degree in art
from a good art school, plus I've been studying beyond art school for
years. Someone at work asked me if my lamp was for sale. I quoted a
price of $400, and this person was visibly shocked. I work with
mathematicians who would think nothing of charging 3 or 4 times as much
as that for the same amount of hours that they invest in one of their
research projects.

I think people have an idea that art doesn't need to be valued because
they think that anyone can do it. Or maybe that it doesn't have any
value in our fast moving technological world, where the bottom line
rules. Art represents the humanity in all of us, and that seems to be
an undervalued commodity all around.

Of course, the big question is, how do we turn this around?

Deb R.


I'm not the first to have done this, but it works every time. We all run
into people for whom the bottom line is tantamount. Cheap as possible, and
no more. Won't pay top dollar for anything. Have more money than God, most
of them. what i call "tire kickers". what Brad mentioned as the
"entertainment seekers"

When they ask if I would go any cheaper, I hand them a lump of clay and tell
them to go
make it themselves, and wish them a nice day, and tell them to call me once
it's done
so I can buy it for less than it cost them to make. Doesn't get me a sale,
(they wouldn't buy anyway) but it might make them think.
And if it ****es them off, tell them to try getting a cheaper price from
their lawyer, or doctor, or auto mechanic, and see how far they get. You
can't educate the ones that don't want to learn, the rest buy gladly.

Wayne Seidl


  #24  
Old March 25th 04, 02:23 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

This puts me in mind of a famous story about my other profession, one that
pays slightly less than pottery: writing. Legend has it that a very
celebrated Canadian novelist, Margaret Laurence, was at a gala and was
engaged in conversation with a neurosurgeon. At a point in the conversation
he confessed that he had always wanted to write a novel and was thinking he
might do it when he retired. At which she exclaimed, "What a coincidence!
I'm planning on becoming a neurosurgeon when I retire!"
Perhaps on overstatement, but it speaks to the disregard many people have
for the complexity, artistry and brute skill/training involved in the act of
creating something. Our ability to acquire so much, so many mass-produced
things, leads to a certain arrogance, as if my ability to pay for something
somehow raises me onto a par with someone who makes something: creating and
purchasing are very different things.
Anyway, I'm actually shocked at how little pottery sells for. Spectacular
centrepiece bowls that you know are going to be the focal point of an entire
room routinely sell for $80-$200 around here. A painting? $700-$5000. And
with pottery discussions of cost almost seem to come back to discussions of
the time involved, or the cost of materials, which to my mind are totally
irrelevant - an object with aesthetic value, one that triggers a response on
an aesthetic level has value beyond its functionality. If I were pressed on
the subject, I would say that beauty is often undervalued - not something
you can kick the tires of.
Solution? I don't know. But I'm always proud of potters who stand by the
value of their work, who charge what they believe it is worth rather than
what they think they can get. Not necessarily practical, you can price
yourself right out of business. But threads like this, discussing the value
it plays in our lives and others is probably very important, if nothing else
to bolster each other in our work.
Thanks to all the posters - I've actually been checking back daily to read
this thread, because I find it quite inspirational.
Simon

"wayneinkeywest" wrote in message
t...


This is so true. I made a lamp. The base was wheel formed and hand
built, then wood fired. The shade was my own design--executed by me
in stained glass. I did all the design work, glazing, hours on the
wood kiln, glass work, and wiring of the lamp. I paid for the
materials, time in the studio, and firing fees. I have a degree in art
from a good art school, plus I've been studying beyond art school for
years. Someone at work asked me if my lamp was for sale. I quoted a
price of $400, and this person was visibly shocked. I work with
mathematicians who would think nothing of charging 3 or 4 times as much
as that for the same amount of hours that they invest in one of their
research projects.

I think people have an idea that art doesn't need to be valued because
they think that anyone can do it. Or maybe that it doesn't have any
value in our fast moving technological world, where the bottom line
rules. Art represents the humanity in all of us, and that seems to be
an undervalued commodity all around.

Of course, the big question is, how do we turn this around?

Deb R.


I'm not the first to have done this, but it works every time. We all run
into people for whom the bottom line is tantamount. Cheap as possible,

and
no more. Won't pay top dollar for anything. Have more money than God,

most
of them. what i call "tire kickers". what Brad mentioned as the
"entertainment seekers"

When they ask if I would go any cheaper, I hand them a lump of clay and

tell
them to go
make it themselves, and wish them a nice day, and tell them to call me

once
it's done
so I can buy it for less than it cost them to make. Doesn't get me a

sale,
(they wouldn't buy anyway) but it might make them think.
And if it ****es them off, tell them to try getting a cheaper price from
their lawyer, or doctor, or auto mechanic, and see how far they get. You
can't educate the ones that don't want to learn, the rest buy gladly.

Wayne Seidl




  #25  
Old March 25th 04, 05:59 AM
dkat
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Posting is real easy to take the wrong way and best to take the right way
(that is give the person the benefit of the doubt that they meant no harm).
I prefer to think the poster meant that she was going to get her ass in gear
and do something productive rather than find that the day had slipped away
while futzing on the idiot machine (I make my living writing software,
running programs etc. so my paying job is the computer and I still find that
I can lose a day of "work" having been caught up in browsing, netshopping
(as opposed to the window shopping those of my generation used to do), etc.
I chose to think they did not mean offense but I did think that they too
easily took offense... but then don't we all at one time or another... DK

my tone is not meant to be lecturing but that of musing...

"Monika Schleidt" wrote in message
y.telekom.at...


J M wrote:

I'm a female newbie to this forum, and quite dismayed that subjects can
deviate from what the site is intended for.

Since you are a newbie, maybe you should stick around for a while
before making such critical comments.


Regarding not making enough money out of pottery - well you get what you

put
into it.. It's the same in any self-run business.

are you really, honestly, making your living from the "self-run
business" of pottery, wheelthrown? No other job, no partner, husband,
who earns money from a normal job? If so, i am sure there are many
people in this group who would like to know more about it.


I'm going to get back to my wheel now and do some 'work' instead of being
stuck in front of the computer all day!

This is a very arrogant statement, implying that all of us spend our
time in front of the computer instead of doing "work". Most of us in
this group don't talk like that to one another.

Monika



--
Monika Schleidt

www.schleidt.org/mskeramik
(If you wish to send me a mail, please leave out the number after my

name!)



  #26  
Old March 25th 04, 08:03 PM
KJALarson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


wrote in message I love potters. Fascinating
thread to read - thanks everyone for throwing
in your thoughts on your priorities.


My two cents next . . . My son introduced me to pottery five years ago. I
am now as hooked as anyone could be. It has been great for me while
recovering from cancer treatments. Did a lot of reading while laid up, then
applied what I had read. I am finally to the stage where some of my wares
are marketable. Making enough to purchase my clay is wonderful! (I do
naked raku.) My son, however, returned home last year from a road trip and
decided that he would make art "his job." We supported him as best we could
while trying to convey some of the practical realities. The 'rover
commercial just made me laugh -- instantaneous realization for one young man
of what we had been trying to do for almost a year. My son, like me, has a
passion for pottery, but he has now decided that a day job has been a good
way to pay his rent and eat.
Judy L


  #27  
Old March 25th 04, 11:16 PM
annemarie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Deborah M Riel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dkat wrote:

snip

That is what I think this tread started on. The feeling that we as
a country do not value potters and that is relevant to the group. Or at
least I think it is.

DKat


This is so true. I made a lamp. The base was wheel formed and hand
built, then wood fired. The shade was my own design--executed by me
in stained glass. I did all the design work, glazing, hours on the
wood kiln, glass work, and wiring of the lamp. I paid for the
materials, time in the studio, and firing fees. I have a degree in art
from a good art school, plus I've been studying beyond art school for
years. Someone at work asked me if my lamp was for sale. I quoted a
price of $400, and this person was visibly shocked. I work with
mathematicians who would think nothing of charging 3 or 4 times as much
as that for the same amount of hours that they invest in one of their
research projects.


How much an hour do you pay your doctor/dentist/lawyer?


I think people have an idea that art doesn't need to be valued because
they think that anyone can do it. Or maybe that it doesn't have any
value in our fast moving technological world, where the bottom line
rules. Art represents the humanity in all of us, and that seems to be
an undervalued commodity all around.

Of course, the big question is, how do we turn this around?

Deb R.


What I call flat art (painting, drawing etc) is more highly valued.


  #28  
Old March 25th 04, 11:19 PM
annemarie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"dkat" wrote in message
. net...
This really isn't the way to kill a thread.... Maybe set it on fire...
Potters are one of the few groups out there in suburbia that actually

needs
some type of truck (for hauling kilns, ware, etc) and might justify having

a
SUV as they now stand. The lawyer driving to the commuter station,
briefcase in tow, on the other hand really doesn't. In fact 90% of SUV
owners do not need and should not have a SUV until the SUVs meet pollution
standards the same as other personal vehicles. There are plenty of

vehicles
that will carry a bunch of kids (which is the excuse most suburbanites

use)
that also follow the requirements to keep pollution low and that don't put
other people in danger. It isn't the 10% that actually need a SUV which
people in general have a gripe with, it is the 90% that don't. Of that

90%
who do I would say at least 50% of them put other people at risk by the

way
they drive (at least on Long Island... you know that place with ALL those
off road terrains that you need SUVs for?). The commercials you see

aren't
geared for people that need a truck. They are for people that want to be
"Cool". That is what I think this tread started on. The feeling that we

as
a country do not value potters and that is relevant to the group. Or at
least I think it is.


Good reply. I have absolutely no problem with people having vehicles with
off road capability who really need that. I do have a problem with people
driving them around city streets because they think they are safer (they are
not) and cool (they are not)
They pollute, they are more prone to rolling, bull bars should only be legal
for farmers, not for mowing down pedestrians. I believe that they alter
some driver behaviour. Some people become more aggressive because they
incorrectly feel safer.
I am absolutely sure that I will not make very much money with pottery and I
could not afford to be doing it if I was supporting the family. My husband
however works too.


  #29  
Old March 25th 04, 11:23 PM
annemarie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


wrote in message
. ..
This puts me in mind of a famous story about my other profession, one that
pays slightly less than pottery: writing. Legend has it that a very
celebrated Canadian novelist, Margaret Laurence, was at a gala and was
engaged in conversation with a neurosurgeon. At a point in the

conversation
he confessed that he had always wanted to write a novel and was thinking

he
might do it when he retired. At which she exclaimed, "What a coincidence!
I'm planning on becoming a neurosurgeon when I retire!"
Perhaps on overstatement, but it speaks to the disregard many people have
for the complexity, artistry and brute skill/training involved in the act

of
creating something. Our ability to acquire so much, so many mass-produced
things, leads to a certain arrogance, as if my ability to pay for

something
somehow raises me onto a par with someone who makes something: creating

and
purchasing are very different things.
Anyway, I'm actually shocked at how little pottery sells for. Spectacular
centrepiece bowls that you know are going to be the focal point of an

entire
room routinely sell for $80-$200 around here. A painting? $700-$5000.

And
with pottery discussions of cost almost seem to come back to discussions

of
the time involved, or the cost of materials, which to my mind are totally
irrelevant - an object with aesthetic value, one that triggers a response

on
an aesthetic level has value beyond its functionality. If I were pressed

on
the subject, I would say that beauty is often undervalued - not something
you can kick the tires of.
Solution? I don't know. But I'm always proud of potters who stand by the
value of their work, who charge what they believe it is worth rather than
what they think they can get. Not necessarily practical, you can price
yourself right out of business. But threads like this, discussing the

value
it plays in our lives and others is probably very important, if nothing

else
to bolster each other in our work.
Thanks to all the posters - I've actually been checking back daily to read
this thread, because I find it quite inspirational.
Simon

Yep I find it interesting too. I agree that pottery is undervalued.
On the writing thing, I do agree that the skill of the writer cannot be
underestimated however some retired people write wonderful things. My Dad
in his last years wrote a book that is autobiographical but also about his
grandfathers pioneering days here in NZ. It is not a literary masterpiece
although it has been accepted as a nomination in the Montana book awards
here in the autobiographical section. It is valuable as a history, as a
glimpse of another way of life. The language used is quiant and old
worldly. It would not have the same charm it does if it was too well
written.


  #30  
Old March 26th 04, 03:24 PM
Bob Masta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:23:57 -0500, wrote:

This puts me in mind of a famous story about my other profession, one that
pays slightly less than pottery: writing. Legend has it that a very
celebrated Canadian novelist, Margaret Laurence, was at a gala and was
engaged in conversation with a neurosurgeon. At a point in the conversation
he confessed that he had always wanted to write a novel and was thinking he
might do it when he retired. At which she exclaimed, "What a coincidence!
I'm planning on becoming a neurosurgeon when I retire!"


Of course, the difference is that just about anyone can write a novel
or make pottery, with minimal training. Whether the novel or pottery
is popular with the public is another matter. The neurosurgeon put
in plenty of years in training before he became certified, and now
he can have a whack at brain tumors and collect big bucks to do so.
I sure wouldn't want to see writing or pottery limited to those who
spent 8 years in training and went $100K in debt to get certified.

Let's face it, these are two different worlds. The neruosurgeon
picked a career in a field where there was an established critical
need, and he paid his dues to get there. However much effort
an artist expends in training (and I imagine it's nowhere near what
an MD expends), it's simply not a "critical need" field.

We can each pick our own chosen path. If someone really
has a craving for material success, there are paths that make
that more probable. Those who choose paths for other reasons
can't expect that the material rewards will be the same.

Another aspect is that MD training is *extremely* selective
about who gets into medical school, but once you are
accepted they make every effort to insure you are a good
doctor before turning you loose. But since anyone can
take up art, and no certification (thankfully!), there is a wider
distribution in skill levels and quality of end product.
If I pick up a novel by a brain surgeon and decide I don't like it,
it's no big deal. Not so with brain surgery by a novelist!



Bob Masta
dqatechATdaqartaDOTcom

D A Q A R T A
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
 




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