safe disposal of chemicals

Hi. I just bought a house in the woods. The garage is a separate
building, and I intend to set up a small metalworking shop to augment
my woodworking -- I just graduated from school where I fell in love
with metalsmithing while being a furniture major ... I especially love
making small vessels & objects. The main problem is that there's no
running water in the space, and no drainage pipes leading to my septic
tank.

The chemicals I use are silver, copper & nickel pickles, acid etching
chems, patinas, and sometimes photography chemicals.

Without spending a lot of $$, I figure I can set up a sink and feed it
with a gardening hose -- I can do this easily right outside the
garage's back door. But then I need to catch the runoff and dispose
of it somehow. I don't really want to introduce this stuff into my
septic tank, and feel uncomfortable with dumping it onto my hillside,
even if I were to build a greywater system. I suppose I can dispose
of it at the dump, but I'm lazy and would like to avoid that!!!

Of course the long term solution would be to get a separate septic
tank installed, or get a greywater sink that has a built-in filter,
but that's going to take me a while to afford.

Meanwhile, does anyone out there have similar circumstances? How do
you deal with it? Does anyone know for sure the relative toxicity of
the chems, and if neutralizing them with baking soda is enough to make
it safe for a greywater system? I read on a previous thread about a
woman who uses Spa Up (spa/pool chemical) instead of pickle -- is it
really safer? Does it work for all metals? As with my woodworking, I
want my metalworking to be as "green" as possible.

Any comments on this issue would be appreciated!
Thanks!
lisau

On , in ìð (lisau) wrote:


I don't really want to introduce this stuff into my
septic tank, and feel uncomfortable with dumping it onto my hillside

Some of these things are safe enough to dump on the ground if there's good
absorbtion, which is the same as putting it in the septic tank for most
purposes, with small amounts. One can dig a small pit, fill it back up with
crushed limestone, and pour DILUTED waste acids in there. The limestone will
neutralize it. This works fine for SMALL amounts, when you don't have
significant amounts of dissolved toxic metals. neither the copper or silver
that might be in there will be that much of a problem. nickel is more toxic.
And some of your other chemicals may be also not allowable in the ground as is.
You should check with local regulations as well, to find out what's recommended
in your area.. Much of the question revolves around the amount of chemical
you're needing to dispose of. Much of the time, you're not disposing of
chemical, just rinsing an item that's been in an acid cleaning bath, and it's
only the runoff you worry about. This can be helped a lot by using a seperate
small rinse tank of clear water, which is itself replenished with clean water as
evaporation etc requires, and this rinse water is also used to replenish
evaporation losses from the main containers. In this way, the amount of "drag
out" chemical that actually gets beyond that system into the waste water is
almost negligably small for the types of chemicals, in small amounts, that
you'll be using.

Of course the long term solution would be to get a separate septic
tank installed,

Again, whether this is a solution depends much on the individual chemicals.
remember that a septic system is not a toxic waste treatment facility.
Primarily, it's designed to dispose of biodegradable wastes, and little else.
Chemical disposal through a septic system simply spreads the chemical out in the
septic field, often little changed. Whether this has any effect or consequence
depends on the amount and type of the chemical. In some cases, it can kill the
biological activity of a septic system, with unpleasant results.


or get a greywater sink that has a built-in filter,
but that's going to take me a while to afford.


Another method of disposing of such things is to simply put it in an open wide
container with lots of surface area, protected as needed so children, pets, or
others don't get in, etc. Then just let the water content evaporate.
Accumulated dry waste chemical would need disposal at local facilities, but
would require it much less frequently.


Meanwhile, does anyone out there have similar circumstances? How do
you deal with it? Does anyone know for sure the relative toxicity of
the chems, and if neutralizing them with baking soda is enough to make
it safe for a greywater system?

Again, it depends on the chemical, and what you've dissolved in it. pickle as
used by jewelers to clean oxides from silver, gold, or copper alloys, is
generally fairly safe when dilute. Baking soda can neutralize it, as can the
aformentioned limestone filled pit, but neither does anything to dissolved
metallic contents, which may or may not present a problem, depending on which
metal and how much there is. Your photo chemicals may be more of a problem, as
can be some etching solutions.

I read on a previous thread about a
woman who uses Spa Up (spa/pool chemical) instead of pickle -- is it
really safer? Does it work for all metals?

Use "spa down", not spa up. What you're looking for is sodium bisulphate, which
is a sulphuric acid salt. It is safer than using an actual sulphuric acid
pickle. Note that buying this as the pool chemical is only a means to save
money. It's the same chemical as is sold by jewelry supply houses as normal
pickling chemical for silver, copper, or gold work. It has the advantage of
being lower priced as the pool chemical, as well as, oddly, being purer when
purchased in this form. Some of the brands (Sparex especially) of commercial
pickle are quite impure, and mess up your container more quickly.

As I said, this stuff is safer than Actual sulphuric acid, but it still can burn
holes in clothing, and fumes from the stuff when hot/boiling, in a closed
unventilated space, are not so good. Safer pickles, though considerably slower,
can be made with weaker acids. Citric acid, which can be purchased as a food
grade chemical, works reasonably well, especially with silver and gold work.
Less effective with the thicker oxides you get on copper, but it can still work,
if you're willing to give it more time to work. Citric acid is generally
considered to be pretty harmless in the dilute form you'll use it (just as it is
in food). Either citric acid or sodium bisulphate pickels can normally, when
diluted, go directly into a municipal waste water system. But you should check
to see what their effect would be on a septic system. Septic systems are, as i
said, a very different problem, since they are a living biological system, and
more is involved than simply the toxicity of the chemical.

Again, key to the answers are the quantities involved. Most of the chemicals
you're using are not frequently disposed of, for example, and most of the issue
is simple rinse water from pulling things out of the chemical and rinsing. You
can deal with that with the rinse tanks I suggested. For the rest, you really
need to check local regulations and requirements, as there are many variables
beyond just the chemicals themselves.

Peter

"Peter W. Rowe" wrote in message
news
Safer pickles, though considerably slower,
can be made with weaker acids. Citric acid, which can be purchased as
a food grade chemical, works reasonably well, especially with silver
and gold work. Less effective with the thicker oxides you get on
copper, but it can still work, if you're willing to give it more time
to work.

I've had luck with the classic vinegar + salt solution. Even etches the
surface of the (brass/bronze/copper) and shows a crystalline appearance...
oh, castings BTW. All the worse though since you guys are just soldering,
I'm melting the whole thing. (Unless you're casting a ring or something
of course, but then agian, I don't do things as small.

Tim

--
"I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!"
- Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Or you could build a wetland to take care of your problem.

http://technology.infomine.com/envir...ds/Welcome.htm

Shawn

"Peter W. Rowe" wrote in message
news
On , in ìð (lisau) wrote:


I don't really want to introduce this stuff into my
septic tank, and feel uncomfortable with dumping it onto my hillside

Some of these things are safe enough to dump on the ground if there's good
absorbtion, which is the same as putting it in the septic tank for most
purposes, with small amounts. One can dig a small pit, fill it back up
with
crushed limestone, and pour DILUTED waste acids in there. The limestone
will
neutralize it. This works fine for SMALL amounts, when you don't have
significant amounts of dissolved toxic metals. neither the copper or
silver
that might be in there will be that much of a problem. nickel is more
toxic.
And some of your other chemicals may be also not allowable in the ground
as is.
You should check with local regulations as well, to find out what's
recommended
in your area.. Much of the question revolves around the amount of
chemical
you're needing to dispose of. Much of the time, you're not disposing of
chemical, just rinsing an item that's been in an acid cleaning bath, and
it's
only the runoff you worry about. This can be helped a lot by using a
seperate
small rinse tank of clear water, which is itself replenished with clean
water as
evaporation etc requires, and this rinse water is also used to replenish
evaporation losses from the main containers. In this way, the amount of
"drag
out" chemical that actually gets beyond that system into the waste water
is
almost negligably small for the types of chemicals, in small amounts, that
you'll be using.

Of course the long term solution would be to get a separate septic
tank installed,

Again, whether this is a solution depends much on the individual
chemicals.
remember that a septic system is not a toxic waste treatment facility.
Primarily, it's designed to dispose of biodegradable wastes, and little
else.
Chemical disposal through a septic system simply spreads the chemical out
in the
septic field, often little changed. Whether this has any effect or
consequence
depends on the amount and type of the chemical. In some cases, it can
kill the
biological activity of a septic system, with unpleasant results.


or get a greywater sink that has a built-in filter,
but that's going to take me a while to afford.


Another method of disposing of such things is to simply put it in an open
wide
container with lots of surface area, protected as needed so children,
pets, or
others don't get in, etc. Then just let the water content evaporate.
Accumulated dry waste chemical would need disposal at local facilities,
but
would require it much less frequently.


Meanwhile, does anyone out there have similar circumstances? How do
you deal with it? Does anyone know for sure the relative toxicity of
the chems, and if neutralizing them with baking soda is enough to make
it safe for a greywater system?

Again, it depends on the chemical, and what you've dissolved in it.
pickle as
used by jewelers to clean oxides from silver, gold, or copper alloys, is
generally fairly safe when dilute. Baking soda can neutralize it, as can
the
aformentioned limestone filled pit, but neither does anything to dissolved
metallic contents, which may or may not present a problem, depending on
which
metal and how much there is. Your photo chemicals may be more of a
problem, as
can be some etching solutions.

I read on a previous thread about a
woman who uses Spa Up (spa/pool chemical) instead of pickle -- is it
really safer? Does it work for all metals?

Use "spa down", not spa up. What you're looking for is sodium bisulphate,
which
is a sulphuric acid salt. It is safer than using an actual sulphuric acid
pickle. Note that buying this as the pool chemical is only a means to
save
money. It's the same chemical as is sold by jewelry supply houses as
normal
pickling chemical for silver, copper, or gold work. It has the advantage
of
being lower priced as the pool chemical, as well as, oddly, being purer
when
purchased in this form. Some of the brands (Sparex especially) of
commercial
pickle are quite impure, and mess up your container more quickly.

As I said, this stuff is safer than Actual sulphuric acid, but it still
can burn
holes in clothing, and fumes from the stuff when hot/boiling, in a closed
unventilated space, are not so good. Safer pickles, though considerably
slower,
can be made with weaker acids. Citric acid, which can be purchased as a
food
grade chemical, works reasonably well, especially with silver and gold
work.
Less effective with the thicker oxides you get on copper, but it can still
work,
if you're willing to give it more time to work. Citric acid is generally
considered to be pretty harmless in the dilute form you'll use it (just as
it is
in food). Either citric acid or sodium bisulphate pickels can normally,
when
diluted, go directly into a municipal waste water system. But you should
check
to see what their effect would be on a septic system. Septic systems are,
as i
said, a very different problem, since they are a living biological system,
and
more is involved than simply the toxicity of the chemical.

Again, key to the answers are the quantities involved. Most of the
chemicals
you're using are not frequently disposed of, for example, and most of the
issue
is simple rinse water from pulling things out of the chemical and rinsing.
You
can deal with that with the rinse tanks I suggested. For the rest, you
really
need to check local regulations and requirements, as there are many
variables
beyond just the chemicals themselves.

Peter

Wow, thanks everyone for the info!

We're on a community water supply here, not quite independent ... but
I'm actually not sure where the water originates. We do have
neighbors down the hill, as well as many mature redwoods, so I agree
that letting the used water leach down the hillside isn't an option.
When I mentioned a second septic, I guess I was envisioning one that
could be pumped out rather than filter through a leaching field like
our current one does. I'm specifically thinking of a friend of mine
who lives on a creek and has his septic drained every few months
because he does a lot a ceramic work and lets dust go down the drain.
This probably isn't worth the expense for my situation.

I guess the best thing is to let the water evaporate and then dispose
of the solids, though we have to be mindful of standing water --
mosquitoes, West Nile virus, etc. Maybe it can be boiled down
(outside) to hasten the process (I think I'm going to set up my
soldering station outside under a shed roof anyway). But it sounds
like the consensus here is that while etching & photo chemicals &
pickle should be disposed of separately, the water used to wash off
pickle could possibly be filtered in some way, or evaporated into a
solid. I guess its actually good that I don't have running water in
my studio because I would have to build some kind of by-pass on the
sink anyway.

Its funny because in school no one even talked about this ...
everything went right down the drain!! In the furniture department
there was a bit more interest in using "green" materials and
processes, but not in the metal department. This should really be
changed. (BTW did anyone read that depressing article in Metalsmith
about strip mining processes? It gives new meaning to the term
"precious metal")

Also, thanks for the tip about using rainwater. I was going to set up
some barrels eventually, but had planned on using the H2O for
gardening. But you're right, our water here is actually very
corrosive, and we have to have all copper pipes. I hadn't really
though about the effects on the metal I work with.

Again, thanks so much for all the input. I'll let you know what I end
up doing! Also, I'm glad to have found this board. SNAG is the one
organization touted at our school, but I find their lack of support to
the community to be really annoying ... by this I mean no posting of
events, shows, etc in the magazine, and no discussion boards or means
of communication through their website.

Cheers!
Lisa U

Hi Folks,

An old friend of mine in San Angelo Tx had a darkroom in his garage.
He went through a LOT of chemicals processing film etc, an just dumped
the waste in his yard. He was rewarded by a big green patch in his
grass. I don't think that most of the chemicals used in processing
film are particularly toxic. I will concede that he did mostly Black
and White, and some Cibachrome. Long time ago...

However, you've gotten my curiosity up. I have seen jewelers use
cyanide solutions for some processes. What do you do with old
cyanide? If you casually mixed it with some acid, we might be reading
about you in the morning paper. It worries me to think about someone
mixing chemicals together to "neutralize" them without being enough of
a chemist to know what the process will yield. If you had a vacuum
pump, you might be able to suck the water out of salt compounds, but
at what risk of sucking HCl or H2SO4 out as well,especially if the PH
has been adjusted with acids? I wouldn't use my good pump...

I think that the SMART thing to do is to collect the compatible
chemicals in 5 gallon containers, and haul them to someone who knows
what to do with them. Or else, do a lot of homework, to make sure what
you want to do is safe.

It is amazing how useful a city sewer with the gigantic dilution ratio
it offers is to the home tinkerer with occasional chemical usage!

Brownnsharp

"brownnsharp" wrote in message
...
If you had a vacuum
pump, you might be able to suck the water out of salt compounds, but
at what risk of sucking HCl or H2SO4 out as well,especially if the PH
has been adjusted with acids? I wouldn't use my good pump...

They combine with the bases forming salts. I'm reminded of a highschool(?)
teacher story...

Tim

--
"I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!"
- Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"lisau" wrote: (clip) I want my metalworking to be as "green" as possible.
Any comments on this issue would be appreciated! (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^
Where I used to work we sold a system which could help you. It consisted of
a metal 5-gal pail with a heater wrapped around the outside. It had a
close-fitting plastic cover with a small fan, blowing air across the
contents into a duct to the outside. You would empty your nasty water based
chemical solutions into the can and just wait for the heat/air flow to
reduce them to a dry concentrate. When the can got full, it went to a toxic
waste disposal service.
I don't know whether this lash-up is still on the market, but I don't think
it would be hard to build one, and a lot cheaper, at that.

"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...
Where I used to work we sold a system which could help you. It
consisted of a metal 5-gal pail with a heater wrapped around the
outside. It had a close-fitting plastic cover with a small fan,
blowing air across the contents into a duct to the outside.

ILLEGAL! :^) EPA calls this waste processing and you need all sorts of
licensing and crap... 'course, it's probably only so for commercial
enterprises.

Tim

--
"I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!"
- Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Can you clarify your water supply to your home? are you on mains as we
call it here in the UK or do you rely on a spring.?
If you rely on aspring etc how many gallons in 24 hrs do you think
you can draw? or are you using a well?
you need to look at your total water cycle if like me your possibly
completly independent for water. IE where yourwater comes from what the
flow gradientof the water might be and where it ends up.
Ive been a metal craftsman for some 36 years and at my present place
for 33. we arewholly independent here also out in the boon docks for all
our services so weve had to think very carefully how we treat out own
back yard. we have a septic tank too, but my chemical wastes are
minimal. Mostly sulfuric acid pickles containing copper and zinc
metallic salts. I dispose of say 2 to 3 gallons a year of this into a
chalk pit well downstream of any rainwater ditches or near my house.
below thepit is clay where the ground water is well below any
possibility of leaching into surface ditches .
My water supply comes from a spring up hill from the house and comes
from a sand water bearing aquifer overlaying clay. This water is
affected by the local acidheathland so is acidic in nature. In fact it
corrosive to the point that a galvanised tank will lose its zinc coating
in about 6 months. So all our plumbing has to be either pure copper or
stainless steel. 316 grade. Brass will dezincify in about 5 years.
leaving a brittle copper sponge.
Never had any infections or ailments in 33 years from the water. Its
also quite untreated except for filtration.
Peter has covered just about all you need to know. If in any doubt take
the waste to your local recycling /dump and ask the manager there what
they do with waste acids.
At out dump, some 6 miles away, all old car batteries go into a large
plastic skip so you could put your acid plastic containes into one of
those.

lisau wrote:
Hi. I just bought a house in the woods. The garage is a separate
building, and I intend to set up a small metalworking shop to augment
my woodworking -- I just graduated from school where I fell in love
with metalsmithing while being a furniture major ... I especially love
making small vessels & objects. The main problem is that there's no
running water in the space, and no drainage pipes leading to my septic
tank.

The chemicals I use are silver, copper & nickel pickles, acid etching
chems, patinas, and sometimes photography chemicals.

Without spending a lot of $$, I figure I can set up a sink and feed it
with a gardening hose -- I can do this easily right outside the
garage's back door. But then I need to catch the runoff and dispose
of it somehow. I don't really want to introduce this stuff into my
septic tank, and feel uncomfortable with dumping it onto my hillside,
even if I were to build a greywater system. I suppose I can dispose
of it at the dump, but I'm lazy and would like to avoid that!!!

Of course the long term solution would be to get a separate septic
tank installed, or get a greywater sink that has a built-in filter,
but that's going to take me a while to afford.

Meanwhile, does anyone out there have similar circumstances? How do
you deal with it? Does anyone know for sure the relative toxicity of
the chems, and if neutralizing them with baking soda is enough to make
it safe for a greywater system? I read on a previous thread about a
woman who uses Spa Up (spa/pool chemical) instead of pickle -- is it
really safer? Does it work for all metals? As with my woodworking, I
want my metalworking to be as "green" as possible.

Any comments on this issue would be appreciated!
Thanks!
lisau