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#11
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In message , HoyoD
writes As to my "rude" comments toward Abrasha, I guess he isn't the only one allowed to be a little rude, eh? You say he is blunt, I say he is downright insulting. Yes, I am a little sensitive to someone who consistently talks down to whoever he is addressing and usually with a good deal of venom. I have no time for such people, regardless of their "wisdom". A truly wise person knows how to communicate without being offensive. Very off topic but something I find a little interesting. A long time ago Peter I sent a post which mildly asked if a poster was actually a man of the cloth as you suggested you saw the need to email me and ask me to change the post. The ground rules do seem to have changed a little particularly with regard to the standard of Abrasha's posts. -- Malcolm Kane |
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On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 09:28:07 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Malcolm Kane
wrote: The ground rules do seem to have changed a little particularly with regard to the standard of Abrasha's posts. I do not treat Abrasha, or his posts, any differently from those of anyone else. It's possible that I've lightened up on everyone the past couple years. I will tell you that since having the opportunity to meet Abrasha in person and get to know him a bit, my opinions of the man have changed 180 degrees. I know him to be a rather nice fellow, polite and interesting to talk to in person, not to mention a craftsperson and artist for whom I have a great deal of respect. In all probability, this has changed the way I comment upon his online personality, which obviously does not always give this same impression. However, everyone, please understand that I don't cut Abrasha any special favors or allowances. His posts are judged by the same standards as any of yours, with regards to what makes it into the group. For those feeling differently, please try to remember the last time I rejected ANY of your posts. It's been quite some time since I had to reject any of Abrasha's posts, as he's been more careful to keep his posts within the group's charter guidelines. And even longer since I ever had to suggest any of you change a post, or had to reject one from any of the rest of you, as least so far as I remember. So please don't accuse me of holding Abrasha to different standards than you. I don't. Please remember, again, that the group charter does not prohibit rudeness or bluntness or nastiness. It prohibits direct personal attacks (flame wars and the like). You can post all you wish attacking the ideas a poster writes about, especially so long as they remain on topic for a jewelry crafts group. What is prohibited is attacking the poster of such ideas hem or herself. So you can call an idea or practice, or a postings' statements, idiotic. But don't call the poster him/herself an idiot. It's a fine line, but I hope, a clear one. Case in point. In this thread, my own recent reply suggesting courses of action was probably poorly thought out, and driven mostly by past frustrations with tightwad business owners expecting fine craftsmanship and hard work and high productivity from craftspeople whom he/she would not supply with proper materials or tools. My suggestions were probably not practical, or reasonable. (but they felt good to write and fantasize about :-) ) NE333RO took me to task, last night, on that post, and rightly so. He/she (I don't know which) pretty much slammed my ideas as being idiotic and suggesting actions which might be taken as criminal, or at least grounds for termination. Well, I don't know if it's quite that bad, but still, the comments were valid. I had no reason to feel I should not approve and post that message, even if the post attacked my statements. It's clearly on topic, and appropriate to the group. If NE333RO's post had, instead, gone off the deep end calling me an idiot and brainless fool who didn't deserve to sit at a keyboard, then I'd have rejected the posting as violating the charter's guidelines. The same standards apply to any posts sent to this group, from anyone. Please understand that sometimes these are "judgement calls". Some posts may be borderline, and in those cases, I just have to decide. Usually it's not a long and agonizing decision. I just make a choice, and post the message or reject it. In the long run, even if the "line" may seem fuzzy, or slightly inconsistant, I hope it's steady enough. Please continue to call to my attention any seeming inconsistancies you see, if you feel I'm erring in the way I make these choices. I'm just one man, as prone to error, fatigue, naivite, and the whole array of potential causes for error as anyone. And please know that I don't view this group as "mine". It's yours, public domain, etc. I just do the job here that you, or at least your predecessors, asked me to do. I'm certainly willing to change these standards at any time the group as a whole seems to feel I'm not doing it correctly. I'll admit to one area where things get very fuzzy sometimes, and that's the problem with advertisements. What constitutes advertising, and what does not, and how people can sneak in ads in allowable ways, and that sort of thing, gets tricky to judge. The bottom line is that this group is not intended as an advertising forum, and the sense I get is that few readers have much interest in seeing ads, so I try to keep out the blantant ones. But again, I'm just one guy, doing this in spare time, so I cannot always take extensive measures to check out a poster, or a web site, to verify things like whether a poster suggesting a site is in fact associated with that site. Cut me a bit of slack on this, please. I do the best i can, and trust that what you don't see in this group is, at least, the vast bulk of the spam, viruses, off topic garbage, and clearly advertising posts that don't belong here. If a few ads pop in now and then, they may be mistakes, or they may simply be ones that, for whatever caprecious reason, I though interesting enough to allow. cheers Peter Rowe moderator rec.crafts.jewelry |
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Take a look here, (search for 'rolling mill') they have 15 in stock (at the time of typing this), and they look pretty good for the $175 that they're asking. (Disc: I have no idea if these are quality products or not) They are not. You don't get a good new rolling mill for $175 You get what you pay for. If you want a good rolling mill check out this page. It's a Dinkel, one of the best made anywhere. http://www.j-schmalz.de/English/Mach...machinery.html This discussion is beginning to remind me of what a teacher once said to me. "I don't buy cheap tools. I can't afford them, they are too expensive." Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
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Another place to check out a good rolling mill is:
http://www.fischer-pforzheim.de/ In the left hand frame, click on the second arrow from the top "Werkzeuge= , Zubeh=F6r". Then, in the right hand frame, click on the arrow in the top right hand s= ide, "Seite 2" Now that's a good rolling mill! Now, if you want cheap and bad, go he http://www.ottofrei.com/store/custom...=3D61&cat=3D3= 17&page=3D1 I'm sure anyone can see the difference in quality, even from these rather= small images. Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
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The comment in NE's post that a rolling mill is essentially a luxury
item (for presumably a jeweller) is a surprising comment and did get up my nose!! . Certainly would be for someone thats just interested in stringing beads on wire , but for a serious metal worker? I disagree with NE entirely. Tools are the means of interpreting our medium, so with the best and most versatile tools our range of work and/or skill is greatly widened. Assuming you have the talent to use them of course!!. My first mill was purchased to enable me to recycle my scrap material on account of the excessive value added tax applicable here in the uk. The mill paid for itself within 6 months. It also enabled me to develop many new products. To name just one, I was developing a range of torques reflecting the iron age, I was at an exhibition where an iron smith was forging 6in round wire nails into spoons., while people waited. I had my mill with me and had some of these nails from him. I rolled them progressively smaller in the square sections of the mill, heated them with the torch, whilst twisting the now square section first 180 deg to the left then the same to the right overall the length.. Within an couple of hours I had half a dozen iron torques of a cirgular design fire oxidised and highlighted. they all sold over the next 3 days. With out the mill these wouldnt have been possible in that time frame. you just cannot have enough good tools. Im continuing to collect them even if I havnt an immediate use for them. |
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In message , Peter W. Rowe
writes On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 09:28:07 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Malcolm Kane wrote: The ground rules do seem to have changed a little particularly with regard to the standard of Abrasha's posts. I do not treat Abrasha, or his posts, any differently from those of anyone else. It's possible that I've lightened up on everyone the past couple years. Sorry Peter I was not trying to suggest you applied different rules to different people. Merely stating a simple point that the type of post Abrasha makes seems to be acceptable now not just to you but to the group (majority of) which seems to be a change from a couple of years or so ago. You do a job I personally wouldn't want and doubt if I could do and in my opinion you do it well. Again I was not trying to suggest double standards. If you read it as such I am sorry. -- Malcolm Kane |
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"Abrasha" wrote in message ... Take a look here, (search for 'rolling mill') they have 15 in stock (at the time of typing this), and they look pretty good for the $175 that they're asking. (Disc: I have no idea if these are quality products or not) They are not. You don't get a good new rolling mill for $175 You get what you pay for. Ok, I know that. But in Chris' case, if it actually does the job required for 3-5 years+ (instead of 20/30 years+), then it will have served its purpose and made a bit of profit at that price too. I would take that risk in his case. Make the money, then buy the quality. As a side-note, my little 'MiniMill' is now 18 years old, used almost daily for sheet, 'D', and square, and is no different to the day I bought it, and I don't consider it being a quality mill. Those mills on that page that I suggested, might even last longer than your quality version, but you'll never know that if you don't hear it from someone or try one... If you want a good rolling mill check out this page. It's a Dinkel, one of the best made anywhere. http://www.j-schmalz.de/English/Mach...machinery.html Could be too expensive for what he needs? This discussion is beginning to remind me of what a teacher once said to me. "I don't buy cheap tools. I can't afford them, they are too expensive." Which also falls into line with the saying "A good worker never blames his tools", (or similar), i.e. make do with what you can afford and get your hands on at the time - at the end of the day, it's down to the design that you want people to wear, *whatever* method/machinery/tools used. -SP- Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
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The comment in NE's post that a rolling mill is essentially a luxury
item (for presumably a jeweller) is a surprising comment and did get up my nose!! . My point was, there is very little that is done on a daily basis, that can't be done without a rolling mill. Is a mill more cost/time effective? Of course. Could most jobs that are done using a rolling mill be done using other tools? Yes. Obviously the original poster has been doing without. I had my mill with me and had some of these nails from him. I rolled them progressively smaller in the square sections of the mill, heated them with the torch, whilst twisting the now square section first 180 deg to the left then the same to the right overall the length.. Which part of that could not have been done with a file, a hammer, a torch, and a vise? Maybe not as fast or as cost effective, but I didn't read anything there I couldn't have duplicated without a rolling mill. Look, I'm not saying it wouldn't be a great addition to any shop. I'm saying with the work done in the majority of shops, you could work around the lack of one. Particularly if the acquisition of one gets you canned. |
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I do not treat Abrasha, or his posts, any differently from those of anyone
else. It's possible that I've lightened up on everyone the past couple years. You may not realize it, but you DO have a different standard for him than the rest of us. Now personally, I have no problem with his style, just so long as it is allowed universally. I do have a problem with the double standard. I will tell you that since having the opportunity to meet Abrasha in person and get to know him a bit, my opinions of the man have changed 180 degrees. I know him to be a rather nice fellow, polite and interesting to talk to in person, not to mention a craftsperson and artist for whom I have a great deal of respect. In all probability, this has changed the way I comment upon his online personality, which obviously does not always give this same impression. Thus the reason for your blind spot. You see his abrasive manor as a misunderstanding on our part, or a language barrier problem on his part. Or you pass it off as "blunt" rather than purposely insulting. Read his posts in rec.crafts.metalworking sometime to break yourself of that illusion. However, everyone, please understand that I don't cut Abrasha any special favors or allowances. His posts are judged by the same standards as any of yours, with regards to what makes it into the group. Oh, I don't think you do it consciously, but he gets away with any number of things the rest of us know we can't. His "blunt" posts get defended, ours get chastised. The beginning of your first post to this subject line was a good example. Following this post are some examples of allowed posts I dug up with 15 minutes or so of archive research. Even allowing I didn't always include full posts, they are nothing I can call "blunt." For those feeling differently, please try to remember the last time I rejected ANY of your posts. After getting my hand slapped a few times while referring to some of Abrashas posts (I don't seem to feel the need with anyone elses), I finally gave up. Thus the lack of rejected posts. I do notice how often you feel the need to jump to his defense. Now that I know the trick to not being rejected it should be interesting. I can insult everything he says, everything he does, and everything he stands for, just so long as I don't use "you" in the sentence. Outstanding. It's been quite some time since I had to reject any of Abrasha's posts, as he's been more careful to keep his posts within the group's charter guidelines. And even longer since I ever had to suggest any of you change a post, or had to reject one from any of the rest of you, as least so far as I remember. So please don't accuse me of holding Abrasha to different standards than you. I don't. That would be the third time you said that this post. Please remember, again, that the group charter does not prohibit rudeness or bluntness or nastiness. It prohibits direct personal attacks (flame wars and the like). Your definition of personal attacks is very liberal when Abrasha is involved. You can post all you wish attacking the ideas a poster writes about, especially so long as they remain on topic for a jewelry crafts group. What is prohibited is attacking the poster of such ideas hem or herself. So you can call an idea or practice, or a postings' statements, idiotic. But don't call the poster him/herself an idiot. It's a fine line, but I hope, a clear one. I guess if you are going to follow the letter of the law rather than the spirit, I can see how *some* of his posts have been allowed. With others, I still don't see the line. Case in point. In this thread, my own recent reply suggesting courses of action was probably poorly thought out, and driven mostly by past frustrations with tightwad business owners expecting fine craftsmanship and hard work and high productivity from craftspeople whom he/she would not supply with proper materials or tools. My suggestions were probably not practical, or reasonable. (but they felt good to write and fantasize about :-) ) And while I agreed in spirit, in the real world they would very infrequently be viable courses of action. Any employee with a boss liberal enough to let you get away with something like that, would probably not have been in that position in the first place. NE333RO took me to task, last night, on that post, and rightly so. He/she (I don't know which) He. pretty much slammed my ideas as being idiotic and suggesting actions which might be taken as criminal, or at least grounds for termination. I didn't slam your ideas, I was "blunt". ) I very seldom call someones ideas idiotic, even when I think they are. I feel that by doing that I am by extension calling them idiotic. In this case I would have used um.........uninformed or possibly sheltered. I worked for this bosses twin, I know what the poster is fighting against. Well, I don't know if it's quite that bad, but still, the comments were valid. It would be *very* easy to get arrested for taking jewelry out of your bosses case, without telling him, and sell it for scrap to finance your personal pet project. Not to mention the breach of trust that would occur after you sold off his property to financh something he already nixed. I don't know how an employer could justify keeping you as an employee after that. I had no reason to feel I should not approve and post that message, even if the post attacked my statements. It's clearly on topic, and appropriate to the group. If NE333RO's post had, instead, gone off the deep end calling me an idiot and brainless fool who didn't deserve to sit at a keyboard, then I'd have rejected the posting as violating the charter's guidelines. I don't see how it could even be in the realm of a rejected message. I didn't attack you or your really even your statements. I disagreed and refuted them, I even bluntly pointed out the possible concequences of taking those actions, but I don't even see how it could be an example of a post that was close to rejection. Maybe thats just MY blind spot showing however. snip Please continue to call to my attention any seeming inconsistancies you see, if you feel I'm erring in the way I make these choices. I promise to do my best, to do my duty..............oh, you know the rest ;o) I'll admit to one area where things get very fuzzy sometimes, and that's the problem with advertisements. I seldom have a problem with that. I realize they are going to sneek some by you and am constantly amazed you catch as many as you do. I also realize that some of them are judgement calls. When I respond negativly to one of those it's usually to let the advertizer know that we know it slipped by, and they aren't putting anything over on us. Abrashaisms: 4/8/03 CharlieM wrote: Take care all, and have a great day!!!!! CharlieM Thanks, but I have made other arrangements already. You really should have your head looked at though. You're using way too many exclamation marks, for it to be healthy. Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com 9/4/97 Peter W. Rowe wrote: Diana Princess of Wales 1961-1997 A remarkable and unique person, without whom, our world will now be a lesser place for all. HuH?!? Last time I checked, this newsgroup was called rec.crafts.jewelry. Besides? Waddaya expect when you drive 110 mph in a 30 mph zone with a drunk at the wheel? A poster in another newsgroup expressed his sentiments about this as follows: Out, Out, OUT! Get the **** out of my newsgroup, you degenerate, swizzledicked yaudswivers! No one gives a flying **** at a waddling wallaby what happened to some blonde bint whose primary claim to fame was doinking an in-bred future monarch of a washed-up nation on the back porch of history. **** off, all of you. Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com 11/1/01 I feel sorry for you for making such an utterly empty and stupid statement. "Influenced by nothing"! I do not know how old you are but you have spent at least 18 years of your young life in schools and you have the ignorance to say that you are "influenced by nothing"? Woman, go back to school, read books, watch movies, read newspapers, walk on the street, get laid, watch TV, go to a museum, read the newspaper, talk with children, talk with old people. "INFLUENCED BY NOTHING" You ignorant pathetic fool! And you have the unmitigated audacity to call yourself a teacher? You should be ashamned of yourself. After reading the stupidity that you have written me, I take you and your colleagues (if they indeed also claim to have been "influenced by nothing") even less seriously now. 3/11/98 David Mayer wrote: I need information about "DECOREM" or some photoceramic system. Please, I can not find it. Email- me now!!! David Hhhmmmmm, methinks we have another one here, who is a few exclamation points short of a full deck. Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com 1/22/97 Go **** yourself, you pathetic asshole. Your continuous and nauseating ads in rec.crafts.jewelry out disgusting and useless. Do you really thin that you are going to get business from them? Drop dead! 3/6/98 Blow it out your ear fatso. 4/4/03 Oh great, here we go again. Another opinion buy some gentle soul jackass who hasn't been around usenet very long. Get over it, and just put me in a kill file already. Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com 5/27/99 And who do you think keeps you in business? It ain't the Pope and Mother Theresa. Go sit on a mountain top and meditate, instead of going to your health club on 5th Ave. and giving meetings while on the cell phone. You sanctimoneous ..... No Abrasha, down, down boy. I said, in your cage ....... NOW! Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com 5/27/99 Where do you think your diamonds come from, and your gold, and your rubies and your every other piece of precious material you make your jewelry with. Are you really that naive or do you have your head in a place where the sun don't shine? I am beginning to find it amusing now that I caught all that flak several weeks ago when I posted the remark that I was beginning to develop a profound dislike of you. I feel vindicated. Abrasha http://www.abrasha 10/31/98 Alas, Ron you were right. We ARE dealing with a humorless goodie two shoes twit here. Better send this zephead some of your leftover mushrooms, but I'm afraid that it won't help much. This one is a goner. Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
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