Prejudicial Attitudes and Remarks

The tough kids as mentors thing might be the single most effective thing to
stop bullying, because it works on the bullies.

At our martial arts retreat we had a prison guard discuss how preditor pick
there victims. That sort of information, which comes from the
preditors/bullies, is important for targets/victims to learn to, and will
help them all there lives.

Tina


"Kathy N-V" wrote in message
....teaching the bullies that they are better than their actions suggest.
I
think that a lot of bullying comes from frustration, jealousy and having
violence modeled in the home. If a child learns that there are plenty of
other ways to get attention, and that life is full of possibilities,
tormenting other people for entertainment isn't so attractive.

Again, I'll bring DD's school as an example, although I've seen this work
elsewhere. Each time a teacher or staff member sees a child behaving in a
positive, thoughtful way toward another student, they give the child a
numbered ticket. The other half of the ticket goes into a bowl for a
drawing. Twice each school year, they have an assembly with boatloads of
prizes donated by the community, with the grand prize being a couple of
bikes.

Again, the only way to win a prize is to be outwardly thoughtful of
another
student. (Trying to kind counts, especially for a child who hasn't been
kind
in the past) Some kids end up with hundreds of entries in the bowl, and I
suspect that others get very few. But those gleaming bicycles in the
auditorium are a powerful motivator.

During the year, there are pizza parties, ice cream socials, and the
occasional dance. You cannot have any infractions pending in order to
attend. Meaning you haven't done anything wrong since the previous event -
and there's an event about every two weeks. The few kids I've seen
refused
entry hung around the front of the school and complained that the event
was
stupid, but I also noticed that they straightened up and attended the next
event. (I chaperone everything except dances. DD has requested I not
attend
the dances)

I've noticed that a lot of the "tough kids" are assigned a mentor, who
checks
up on them during the day. (My kid doesn't have a mentor, so I don't know
the details) Mentors can be anyone on staff, and is usually someone with
whom the child seems to "click." Every cafeteria lady is a mentor, as are
the
janitors and many of the teachers. In that way, every child knows that
there
is at least one adult who cares about them.

Community service is a requirement for graduation. The kids help out at
the
food pantry, collect socks and mittens for the homeless shelter or go
visit
old folks at the assisted living apartments near the school, for example.
I
think that giving the children a way to impact their communities in a
positive way is a real motivator. It also teaches them that the elderly
and
homeless (traditionally targets of youthful punks) have identities, and
are
worthy of respect.

This doesn't work for every kid, of course, and there are a few die-hards
who
end up on the bad side of the rules (and the law). One sixteen year old
sixth grader (!) is serving a long prison term for using heroin in the
boys'
room. Some kids I know didn't learn the first time, and get sent to the
in-building suspension room for as many times as necessary for them to get
the point. But most kids get it, and are much nicer kids going out of
Sterling than when they arrived.

Kathy N-V

"Christina Peterson" wrote in message
news:1061965273.658276@prawn...

At our martial arts retreat we had a prison guard discuss how preditor
pick
there victims. That sort of information, which comes from the
preditors/bullies, is important for targets/victims to learn to, and will
help them all there lives.

Oh, I so very much agree with this! Simple information is very empowering.

One of the things I've learned as an adult when confronted with a bullying
situation is that if you demonstrate-- with much kindness-- in the bully's
presence that you understand their tactics and the intentions behind them,
the bully will back off. I emphasize kindness because it's tempting to get
angry and accusatory, and this isn't ever helpful.

Bullies look for easy targets because it's the target's reaction they seek,
and it's a lot of work to get a reaction from someone who's unwilling to
play the game, or savvy enough not to do so.

Laura

bullying in general, and "special" kids....

My #1 son has been on both sides of the "bullying" situation. He has been
physically picked on-- his reaction was total shock that anybody COULD and
would WANT to hurt him, not just once, but each and every time. He still seems
to think he can win every fight, and come out of them without breaking a sweat.
Still the toddler who is going to "fight all the monsters and beat them up" (as
he runs off into the dark playground....). He also has gotten a lot of teasing
about his clothes, hair, make-up, actions, and various quirks; some of it has
inspired even more "weirdness", some has gotten him enraged, or both, or
neither, and there's no predicting WHAT his reaction will be at any given time.

He also has been the bully in "psychological" type bullying situations-- his
victims have been those that are "reactive", not necessarily "weak" or "smaller
than him" in any way. Counciling about that sort of thing doesn't seem to sink
in-- he doesn't see it as "bullying", he sees it as "joking around". Getting
punched out by the "harassee" doesn't seem to have taught him much either.
Since jr high, he has been in "special" programs where he got a lot of
supervision, and also the close company of other "special" kids-- it did not
teach him compassion, despite all the extra "socialization" counciling, role
playing sessions, frequent reminders to "think" before he acts, meds to help
him "concentrate" and deal with "stress", and a year of residential treatment.
The only thing that seems to "work", at least temporarily, is if his behavior
keeps him from being part of a groupt that he WANTS to be "in" with. The teen
group at our temple is about the only such one that is a "positive" type
group-- most of the kids are "normal", but more "accepting" than most kids seem
to be; when anybody acts in an unacceptable manner, that person ceases to
exist, when the unacceptable behavior stops, the rest of the group can "see"
him again and doesn't hold it against him that he "went away" for a while.
Unfortunately, he has graduated out of that group....
Even after 13 years of his schooling, I have no idea what the solution to
dealing with these sort of kids should/could be-- it's not fair to anybody to
put them in a regular classroom where they disrupt the class and prevent the
other students from learning, but yet putting them in "special" classes seems
mostly to teach them new "bad tricks", without teaching them to be able to
succeed outside their "special" environment. As one other parent put it-- in
school there are ED classes, but out there in the "real world", there are no ED
jobs. Even some of his teachers and spec. ed. staff weren't sure if they were
doing more than delaying eventual failure, and wondered if it wouldn't be
"better" in the long run to let some of these kids to "hit bottom" when they
are young enough to qualify for help, rather than propping them up until
graduation, then putting them out on the street unready to be truely part of
society but expected to support themselves and take care of their own problems.
Kaytee
"Simplexities" on
www.eclecticbeadery.com
http://www.rubylane.com/shops/simplexities

I -love- peer-based problem solving.

It means people make choices based on their own needs, interests and
desired outcomes. They don't submit to Justice By Fiat, imposed from
above. Which is often based on *no experience at all* of the problem
from the participants' perspective.

Deirdre

On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 05:11:25 GMT, "Christina Peterson"
wrote:

I don't think the problem should be dumped back on the kids, but I do think
the only way to solve a problem is to have the participants be involved in
the solution. Just like you don't have straight and narrow types counsel
alcoholics or addicts, but rather have that done by other (recovered)
addicts. And Community Oriented Policing works by removing the Us Vs Them
element, and having neighborhood residents and cops working as equal
singnators to a contract. The peers, the adults, the targets AND the
bullies need to be included.

Tina




"laura" wrote in message
...

"Deirdre S." wrote in message
...
OK. I hear you.

I'm just searching for things that have the potential to work in the
targets' favor. Something to offer options and hope.

I understand what you mean about how primitive and defensive our
responses are when we are under attack. Quite true.

But does that mean that it is impossible to stop bullies? That today's
targets have no more hope of escape than we did, decades ago? Do we
just shake our heads and say "It's part of childhood, if you are
unlucky or unusual enough to qualify as odd-man out, and no one is
going to be able to change it, ever"?

No, I don't think it's impossible. I just think that those who are in a
position to do so can stop looking the other way when this stuff occurs
and
can instead actually address the problem.

Dumping it back onto the kids to somehow organize and solve the problem on
their own doesn't make sense to me. Those kids have plenty of stress
already. What they need, more than anything else, is a caring adult (or
community of adults) to witness, validate and value their experience.
That
provides strength, and it can make a tremendous difference to these kids
if
they even simply get the feeling that what happens to them actually
matters
to the adults around them.

If enough people are willing to actually stand there and just say "you
know,
it's wrong for this to happen" then things *will* change.

Laura

YES! I think this kind of experiential learning is what really goes
deep. And I guess I would recommend to people who didn't feel
respected that they -experiment- with treating others respectfully.
Not promising anything in particular will happen, just saying "Try it
and see what changes, if anything..."

Being "taught a lesson" by more powerful people who want to prove to
us how wrong we are --- just makes us sullen and resentful. It doesn't
make us want to behave respectfully. We may *feign* respect in their
presence, but we sure as hell don't feel it...


Deirdre

On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 06:13:21 GMT, "Christina Peterson"
wrote:

Participating in determining our own
consequences.

Agreed, all the way down the line. Especially with the points about
being unable to solve a problem we don't acknowledge honestly, and
about finger pointing and blaming moving us *away* from a solution
instead of toward one. It just forces people to defend their
positions, and discourages them from *changing* positions.

Deirdre

On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:45:33 -0400, "laura"
wrote:


"Christina Peterson" wrote in message
news:1061961084.962175@prawn...
I don't think the problem should be dumped back on the kids, but I do
think
the only way to solve a problem is to have the participants be involved in
the solution. Just like you don't have straight and narrow types counsel
alcoholics or addicts, but rather have that done by other (recovered)
addicts. And Community Oriented Policing works by removing the Us Vs Them
element, and having neighborhood residents and cops working as equal
singnators to a contract. The peers, the adults, the targets AND the
bullies need to be included.

Agreed! I'm not saying that these kids need to be sheltered and protected--
actually, more often than not it's the bullies who end up sheltered because
people won't confront their behavior, or they chalk it up to stuff like "Oh,
that's how kids are"-- and that's not helpful, either. It's just an easy,
cheap cop out that allows the behavior to continue and allows denial to rule
the situation.

My thoughts on this (as with most things) are fairly simple and
straightforward. Attacking a problem headfirst-- by dragging all the
information and ugly *facts* out into the light, placing them squarely on
the table, and making the dynamic involved very clear for all to see
*without using guilt, blame or shame as manipulative tools* -- is more
effective than working to find compromising "solutions" that actually amount
to finding ways to allow various subgroups to remain in denial of any
problem.

To compromise in favor of denial isn't something that has been suggested
here in this thread, but I think it is how the world often works in
situations where there are underlying abusive dynamics at work. I think we
can change that, in part by eliminating the language of blaming and all the
finger pointing and instead starting from the point of "okay, we're here and
we need to get there. How do we do it?" People are so afraid of just
speaking the obvious sometimes. If one person gives voice to what they
actually see, sometimes that is enough validation that others will then find
the courage to also speak their minds. Then perhaps those who have remained
in denial will begin to realize that they haven't been looking at the issue,
and it grows from there.

But, it all starts with someone, somewhere, deciding that it's time to get
honest. It sounds like that is what happened in Kathy's DD's school, and it
sounds like that's working, and I think that's wonderful.

Targeted kids can, and should, be involved in the process of reclaiming what
essentially amounts to their right to exist. It would be silly to suggest
otherwise. I took the initial thought presented by Deirdre when she
wondered why targeted kids don't band together for protection as moving in
the direction of putting the responsibility for solving the problem back
onto those most affected by it, which isn't a solution. However, that
wasn't meant to imply that the targeted kids shouldn't be involved. Only
that we shouldn't expect them to be the ones to shoulder the responsibility
for solving the problem. As Kathy correctly points out, it is a community
problem.

Laura

Yes! The reality of this was demonstrated vividly during the
free-for-all that happened within a month or so of the time I joined
RCB, when bullying and 'gang'-type activities offlist at selected
targets threw the whole ng into a turmoil.

"Not playing the game" is what eventually gave us peace again. It
empowered us, and disempowered the malice-spreaders.

Deirdre

On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:51:57 -0400, "laura"
wrote:

Bullies look for easy targets because it's the target's reaction they seek,
and it's a lot of work to get a reaction from someone who's unwilling to
play the game, or savvy enough not to do so.

I had no idea that happened. It was about the time I started posting.

The same thing happened to our bird group in Alaska. It became so political
and back-biting I quit. Couldn't take all the name calling, etc. It was a
total waste of my time, but a good concept.

Starlia

"Deirdre S." wrote in message
...
Yes! The reality of this was demonstrated vividly during the
free-for-all that happened within a month or so of the time I joined
RCB, when bullying and 'gang'-type activities offlist at selected
targets threw the whole ng into a turmoil.

"Not playing the game" is what eventually gave us peace again. It
empowered us, and disempowered the malice-spreaders.

Deirdre

On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:51:57 -0400, "laura"
wrote:

Bullies look for easy targets because it's the target's reaction they
seek,
and it's a lot of work to get a reaction from someone who's unwilling to
play the game, or savvy enough not to do so.

This is a major problem, and I don't pretend to know what to do about
it. Except acknowledge it as honestly as you have, and ask the
question in the form of "Right now we are -here- and we want to get
-there-. How do we do it?"

I think it sounds like there are biological things preventing someone
like your son from really 'getting' the socialization stuff his
counselors are trying to train him in. It's like asking a color-blind
person to 'see' color. Frustrates everyone involved without getting
closer to solution...

Deirdre

On 27 Aug 2003 16:00:05 GMT, ospam (Kaytee) wrote:

Even some of his teachers and spec. ed. staff weren't sure if they were
doing more than delaying eventual failure, and wondered if it wouldn't be
"better" in the long run to let some of these kids to "hit bottom" when they
are young enough to qualify for help, rather than propping them up until
graduation, then putting them out on the street unready to be truely part of
society but expected to support themselves and take care of their own problems.

It's so easy to blame someone. But sometimes even blaming the parents isn't
fair. Parents can do all the right things and still be completely
bewildered at their childrens behaviour. When behaviour doesn't make sense,
try looking at chemistry. Chemical (or "wiring") problems aren't
necessarily fixable, even if you can identify what it is, but at least one
feels less bewildered and incompetent.

I know there are programs that work by "raising the bottom", so someone can
hit bottom earlier and have recovery begin sooner.

In real life, most of us have someone in our extended family who has an
addiction, has been in jail, has an anger problem, or something. Too often
those people are kind of erased from our social/family awareness. They are
then even further marginalized. We have to include them to help them -- and
ourselves.

Tina


"Kaytee" wrote in message
...
bullying in general, and "special" kids....

My #1 son has been on both sides of the "bullying" situation. He has been
physically picked on-- his reaction was total shock that anybody COULD and
would WANT to hurt him, not just once, but each and every time. He still
seems
to think he can win every fight, and come out of them without breaking a
sweat.
Still the toddler who is going to "fight all the monsters and beat them
up" (as
he runs off into the dark playground....). He also has gotten a lot of
teasing
about his clothes, hair, make-up, actions, and various quirks; some of it
has
inspired even more "weirdness", some has gotten him enraged, or both, or
neither, and there's no predicting WHAT his reaction will be at any given
time.

He also has been the bully in "psychological" type bullying situations--
his
victims have been those that are "reactive", not necessarily "weak" or
"smaller
than him" in any way. Counciling about that sort of thing doesn't seem to
sink
in-- he doesn't see it as "bullying", he sees it as "joking around".
Getting
punched out by the "harassee" doesn't seem to have taught him much either.
Since jr high, he has been in "special" programs where he got a lot of
supervision, and also the close company of other "special" kids-- it did
not
teach him compassion, despite all the extra "socialization" counciling,
role
playing sessions, frequent reminders to "think" before he acts, meds to
help
him "concentrate" and deal with "stress", and a year of residential
treatment.
The only thing that seems to "work", at least temporarily, is if his
behavior
keeps him from being part of a groupt that he WANTS to be "in" with. The
teen
group at our temple is about the only such one that is a "positive" type
group-- most of the kids are "normal", but more "accepting" than most kids
seem
to be; when anybody acts in an unacceptable manner, that person ceases to
exist, when the unacceptable behavior stops, the rest of the group can
"see"
him again and doesn't hold it against him that he "went away" for a while.
Unfortunately, he has graduated out of that group....
Even after 13 years of his schooling, I have no idea what the solution to
dealing with these sort of kids should/could be-- it's not fair to anybody
to
put them in a regular classroom where they disrupt the class and prevent
the
other students from learning, but yet putting them in "special" classes
seems
mostly to teach them new "bad tricks", without teaching them to be able to
succeed outside their "special" environment. As one other parent put it--
in
school there are ED classes, but out there in the "real world", there are
no ED
jobs. Even some of his teachers and spec. ed. staff weren't sure if they
were
doing more than delaying eventual failure, and wondered if it wouldn't be
"better" in the long run to let some of these kids to "hit bottom" when
they
are young enough to qualify for help, rather than propping them up until
graduation, then putting them out on the street unready to be truely part
of
society but expected to support themselves and take care of their own
problems.
Kaytee
"Simplexities" on
www.eclecticbeadery.com
http://www.rubylane.com/shops/simplexities