Prejudicial Attitudes and Remarks

"Deirdre S." wrote in message
...
Neither do I. But I don't see telling the targets to suck it up and
take it as a viable response, either ...

No, neither do I. Nor do I think we can dump the responsibility to fix the
problem back onto those kids-- that's just adding more stress that they
don't need. But with real guidance and a community effort to take the
problem on and tackle it headfirst, such as the program Kathy described, the
problem might just be solvable to a degree.

The best solution is one that somehow also takes the kids that are acting
out and deals with whatever factors exist in their lives that cause them to
behave that way. But I don't see this happening any time soon. At least
making it known to them that these behaviors aren't acceptable can provide
some measure of feedback to those kids that is sorely needed if they are to
have a prayer of making it through, themselves. Not by humiliation, but by
encouraging the community to stand together with the targets and simply say
"No. We don't allow that here."

Laura

Yes. The two actions together seem necessary to me. Both saying NO
unequivocally to the destructive actions on the part of the bullies,
but also being creative in offering non-destructive, valued ways of
getting seen and heard for those same people. While they're young, and
their behavior patterns are still 'in the melt'.

If you have nothing but the NO, with no YES to take its place, you are
just a police force, not a transformative force. And the malicious
behavior doesn't go away, it just goes underground, IMO.

Deirdre

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:27:14 -0400, "laura"
wrote:

Not by humiliation, but by
encouraging the community to stand together with the targets and simply say
"No. We don't allow that here."

"Deirdre S." wrote in message
...
OK. I hear you.

I'm just searching for things that have the potential to work in the
targets' favor. Something to offer options and hope.

I understand what you mean about how primitive and defensive our
responses are when we are under attack. Quite true.

But does that mean that it is impossible to stop bullies? That today's
targets have no more hope of escape than we did, decades ago? Do we
just shake our heads and say "It's part of childhood, if you are
unlucky or unusual enough to qualify as odd-man out, and no one is
going to be able to change it, ever"?

No, I don't think it's impossible. I just think that those who are in a
position to do so can stop looking the other way when this stuff occurs and
can instead actually address the problem.

Dumping it back onto the kids to somehow organize and solve the problem on
their own doesn't make sense to me. Those kids have plenty of stress
already. What they need, more than anything else, is a caring adult (or
community of adults) to witness, validate and value their experience. That
provides strength, and it can make a tremendous difference to these kids if
they even simply get the feeling that what happens to them actually matters
to the adults around them.

If enough people are willing to actually stand there and just say "you know,
it's wrong for this to happen" then things *will* change.

Laura

I think a willingness to do this is the absolute minimum required to
get change -started-. And it will take attention to what helps and
what doesn't to keep change going in useful directions.

And yes, that is a responsibility that can't be foisted on the kids,
unaided. I don't even have kids, but I'd love to live in a world where
other people's kids were safe, and spent their energy on learning
instead of dread.

Deirdre

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:41:39 -0400, "laura"
wrote:

If enough people are willing to actually stand there and just say "you know,
it's wrong for this to happen" then things *will* change.

Without this, I don't see any way that bullying, and the misery behind
it, will ever stop.

*With* this, I don't see how a systematic effort that persists over
time can -fail- to turn it around in most instances.

Kathy, the folks at DD's school have obviously thought this out to the
deepest levels, and are commited to doing what it takes to get good
outcomes.

Deirdre

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:13:20 -0400, Kathy N-V
wrote:

In that way, every child knows that there
is at least one adult who cares about them.

My stepson is almost 13, is 5'9", weighs 170, knows martial arts, and his
mother is a bully. So I'm hoping for some answers also. So he doesn't
become a bully, too.

Tina


"CLP" wrote in message
news:t3R2b.11330$j26.8313@lakeread02...
Unfortunately, the one being picked on is often times the "different" kid
who doesn't really have friends or make them easily and has no one to band
together *with*. And a lot of times, kids who might want to stick up for
someone don't because of fear of reprisal from the bullies. I don't have
any
solutions. Wish I did. I have a grandson who fits into the odd man out
category, he is very much out of step with other kids - of any age. I only
get him a couple weeks a year, as we live in different states, but in that
short amount of time just with neighborhood kids I can see how rough it
must
be for him in school. What do you do? I don't know.

--
"Karmageddon: It's like, when everybody is sending off all these really
bad vibes, right? And then, like, the Earth explodes and it's like, a
serious bummer." Washington Post Style Invitational
"Deirdre S." wrote in message
...
I didn't suggest that they'd be better off if they tried to 'be mean'
to bullies. That would be pointless, and almost certain to increase
their tormentor's will to torture them.

I meant the kind of 'alliances' where they stick together, and become
a less inviting target by being less isolated, and therefore less
easily overcome.

Deirdre

On 26 Aug 2003 17:34:14 GMT, uppies (Dr. Sooz)
wrote:

Yes, those things. And the inability to be mean.

Well, having lived at both ends of the socio-economic spectrum during
my own childhood, I can say that these folks are not exempt from
misery, frustration and violence at home. Despite stereotyping, the
well-heeled, well-dressed "in" kids aren't necessarily any happier or
better-tuned emotionally than the ragged or geeky ones.

Deirdre

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 17:30:04 -0700, vj wrote:


well, in *many* schools, the problems come from the supposed "elite".
the cheerleaders. the football stars. and their hangers-on.

I don't think the problem should be dumped back on the kids, but I do think
the only way to solve a problem is to have the participants be involved in
the solution. Just like you don't have straight and narrow types counsel
alcoholics or addicts, but rather have that done by other (recovered)
addicts. And Community Oriented Policing works by removing the Us Vs Them
element, and having neighborhood residents and cops working as equal
singnators to a contract. The peers, the adults, the targets AND the
bullies need to be included.

Tina




"laura" wrote in message
...

"Deirdre S." wrote in message
...
OK. I hear you.

I'm just searching for things that have the potential to work in the
targets' favor. Something to offer options and hope.

I understand what you mean about how primitive and defensive our
responses are when we are under attack. Quite true.

But does that mean that it is impossible to stop bullies? That today's
targets have no more hope of escape than we did, decades ago? Do we
just shake our heads and say "It's part of childhood, if you are
unlucky or unusual enough to qualify as odd-man out, and no one is
going to be able to change it, ever"?

No, I don't think it's impossible. I just think that those who are in a
position to do so can stop looking the other way when this stuff occurs
and
can instead actually address the problem.

Dumping it back onto the kids to somehow organize and solve the problem on
their own doesn't make sense to me. Those kids have plenty of stress
already. What they need, more than anything else, is a caring adult (or
community of adults) to witness, validate and value their experience.
That
provides strength, and it can make a tremendous difference to these kids
if
they even simply get the feeling that what happens to them actually
matters
to the adults around them.

If enough people are willing to actually stand there and just say "you
know,
it's wrong for this to happen" then things *will* change.

Laura

Yes, respect begets respect. How to teach that, I don't know.

The bringing together of all components I mentioned before is the only thing
I can think of that would do that. Participating in determining our own
consequences.

Tina


"Deirdre S." wrote in message
...
I am not in favor of control through humiliation, either. Doesn't
work. Backfires.

No, I am looking for ways to convince the bullies that their -own
lives- will improve if they find other ways of relating to people.
Make it obvious that it isn't open season on the unprotected, and that
respect is more rewarding in the long run.

After all, being respectful is an invitation for others to respect
you, too.

Deirdre

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:13:30 -0700, vj wrote:


]Cost him more than he (or she)
]gains?

possibly, yes.
making examples of them in a negative way?

This impresses me.

Tina


"Kathy N-V" wrote in message to change it,
ever"?
Today's targets probably don't have the power on their own,
but bullying can be stopped right in its tracks. It does take a lot of
work
and commitment on the part of their teachers and all school staff.

DD's school has peer counselling to help out in these kinds of situations,
and I think it's just terrific. It's one thing to have the principal tell
a
kid to knock it off, but something else altogether to have other kids tell
you what you did was wrong, and that it will not be tolerated in the
school
community. BTW, you don't have a bunch of little tattle-tales as the peer
counsellors. Kids are "drafted" by the principal, and are usually
nominated
by their teachers and other students. You DO NOT need to be an honor
student
to be a peer counsellor -- many counsellors are _very_ familiar with the
suspension room.

But this school gives the kids a lot of power in general. Each grade has
representatives on the PTA, there are student steering committees for
everything, and the kids feel that the school is "their place," rather
than
someplace they've been forced to go. Because the student population is
mostly
poor and largely immigrant, most of these kids are usually at school from
7
a.m. (for breakfast) until 5:30 or 6:00 p.m. (School is open on Saturdays
for open gym, meals and remedial tutoring, and during the summer a "child
feeding station.") The kids really think of Sterling as their home.

Kids are strongly encouraged to talk to any staff member if they
themselves
are bullied, or _if they know about someone who is bullied._ Amazingly,
they
do it, and no one goes after the ones who ratted out the bullies. A child
going to speak to staff is encouraged to bring along a friend for moral
support, which makes a huge difference; it's not a kid feeling small and
victimized talking to an authority figure all alone. I wish I knew how
the
staff got this miracle to take place -- when I went to Sterling, it was a
rough place, and even carrying a weapon went unpunished. Fires in the
halls,
open drug use and serious assaults were pretty common.

I was petrified and determined that DD would not go to Sterling, but word
came down that the place had changed. I was hospitalized at the time, but
DH
and DD took a day off of work/elementary school for her to visit Sterling
before we made up our mind (DD had been accepted at a private prep school,
but started begging to go to public school with all her friends. Before
we
sent large chunks of money to the prep school, we decided to check out our
alma mater). DH was stunned by two things - how the physical building of
Sterling had degraded, and how nice all the kids were. Yep, the building
is
crummy, but the kids are terrific.

Obligatory Disclosu DD is not one of "the popular clique" and never
will
be. She's too bookish, not concerned with fashion and is uninterested in
partying. It doesn't matter, she's comfortable in her own skin, and has
friends from every level of the social stratum at school.

I think that it takes an attitude adjustment by the whole community to end
bullying. The "kids will be like that" attitude doesn't work, and the
student population takes on a "might makes right" hierarchy. It takes a
lot
of work and dedication on the part of everyone to make it work.

Kathy N-V