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#21
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In article ,
dkat wrote: snip That is what I think this tread started on. The feeling that we as a country do not value potters and that is relevant to the group. Or at least I think it is. DKat This is so true. I made a lamp. The base was wheel formed and hand built, then wood fired. The shade was my own design--executed by me in stained glass. I did all the design work, glazing, hours on the wood kiln, glass work, and wiring of the lamp. I paid for the materials, time in the studio, and firing fees. I have a degree in art from a good art school, plus I've been studying beyond art school for years. Someone at work asked me if my lamp was for sale. I quoted a price of $400, and this person was visibly shocked. I work with mathematicians who would think nothing of charging 3 or 4 times as much as that for the same amount of hours that they invest in one of their research projects. I think people have an idea that art doesn't need to be valued because they think that anyone can do it. Or maybe that it doesn't have any value in our fast moving technological world, where the bottom line rules. Art represents the humanity in all of us, and that seems to be an undervalued commodity all around. Of course, the big question is, how do we turn this around? Deb R. |
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#22
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J M wrote: I'm a female newbie to this forum, and quite dismayed that subjects can deviate from what the site is intended for. Since you are a newbie, maybe you should stick around for a while before making such critical comments. Regarding not making enough money out of pottery - well you get what you put into it.. It's the same in any self-run business. are you really, honestly, making your living from the "self-run business" of pottery, wheelthrown? No other job, no partner, husband, who earns money from a normal job? If so, i am sure there are many people in this group who would like to know more about it. I'm going to get back to my wheel now and do some 'work' instead of being stuck in front of the computer all day! This is a very arrogant statement, implying that all of us spend our time in front of the computer instead of doing "work". Most of us in this group don't talk like that to one another. Monika -- Monika Schleidt www.schleidt.org/mskeramik (If you wish to send me a mail, please leave out the number after my name!) |
#23
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This is so true. I made a lamp. The base was wheel formed and hand built, then wood fired. The shade was my own design--executed by me in stained glass. I did all the design work, glazing, hours on the wood kiln, glass work, and wiring of the lamp. I paid for the materials, time in the studio, and firing fees. I have a degree in art from a good art school, plus I've been studying beyond art school for years. Someone at work asked me if my lamp was for sale. I quoted a price of $400, and this person was visibly shocked. I work with mathematicians who would think nothing of charging 3 or 4 times as much as that for the same amount of hours that they invest in one of their research projects. I think people have an idea that art doesn't need to be valued because they think that anyone can do it. Or maybe that it doesn't have any value in our fast moving technological world, where the bottom line rules. Art represents the humanity in all of us, and that seems to be an undervalued commodity all around. Of course, the big question is, how do we turn this around? Deb R. I'm not the first to have done this, but it works every time. We all run into people for whom the bottom line is tantamount. Cheap as possible, and no more. Won't pay top dollar for anything. Have more money than God, most of them. what i call "tire kickers". what Brad mentioned as the "entertainment seekers" When they ask if I would go any cheaper, I hand them a lump of clay and tell them to go make it themselves, and wish them a nice day, and tell them to call me once it's done so I can buy it for less than it cost them to make. Doesn't get me a sale, (they wouldn't buy anyway) but it might make them think. And if it ****es them off, tell them to try getting a cheaper price from their lawyer, or doctor, or auto mechanic, and see how far they get. You can't educate the ones that don't want to learn, the rest buy gladly. Wayne Seidl |
#24
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This puts me in mind of a famous story about my other profession, one that
pays slightly less than pottery: writing. Legend has it that a very celebrated Canadian novelist, Margaret Laurence, was at a gala and was engaged in conversation with a neurosurgeon. At a point in the conversation he confessed that he had always wanted to write a novel and was thinking he might do it when he retired. At which she exclaimed, "What a coincidence! I'm planning on becoming a neurosurgeon when I retire!" Perhaps on overstatement, but it speaks to the disregard many people have for the complexity, artistry and brute skill/training involved in the act of creating something. Our ability to acquire so much, so many mass-produced things, leads to a certain arrogance, as if my ability to pay for something somehow raises me onto a par with someone who makes something: creating and purchasing are very different things. Anyway, I'm actually shocked at how little pottery sells for. Spectacular centrepiece bowls that you know are going to be the focal point of an entire room routinely sell for $80-$200 around here. A painting? $700-$5000. And with pottery discussions of cost almost seem to come back to discussions of the time involved, or the cost of materials, which to my mind are totally irrelevant - an object with aesthetic value, one that triggers a response on an aesthetic level has value beyond its functionality. If I were pressed on the subject, I would say that beauty is often undervalued - not something you can kick the tires of. Solution? I don't know. But I'm always proud of potters who stand by the value of their work, who charge what they believe it is worth rather than what they think they can get. Not necessarily practical, you can price yourself right out of business. But threads like this, discussing the value it plays in our lives and others is probably very important, if nothing else to bolster each other in our work. Thanks to all the posters - I've actually been checking back daily to read this thread, because I find it quite inspirational. Simon "wayneinkeywest" wrote in message t... This is so true. I made a lamp. The base was wheel formed and hand built, then wood fired. The shade was my own design--executed by me in stained glass. I did all the design work, glazing, hours on the wood kiln, glass work, and wiring of the lamp. I paid for the materials, time in the studio, and firing fees. I have a degree in art from a good art school, plus I've been studying beyond art school for years. Someone at work asked me if my lamp was for sale. I quoted a price of $400, and this person was visibly shocked. I work with mathematicians who would think nothing of charging 3 or 4 times as much as that for the same amount of hours that they invest in one of their research projects. I think people have an idea that art doesn't need to be valued because they think that anyone can do it. Or maybe that it doesn't have any value in our fast moving technological world, where the bottom line rules. Art represents the humanity in all of us, and that seems to be an undervalued commodity all around. Of course, the big question is, how do we turn this around? Deb R. I'm not the first to have done this, but it works every time. We all run into people for whom the bottom line is tantamount. Cheap as possible, and no more. Won't pay top dollar for anything. Have more money than God, most of them. what i call "tire kickers". what Brad mentioned as the "entertainment seekers" When they ask if I would go any cheaper, I hand them a lump of clay and tell them to go make it themselves, and wish them a nice day, and tell them to call me once it's done so I can buy it for less than it cost them to make. Doesn't get me a sale, (they wouldn't buy anyway) but it might make them think. And if it ****es them off, tell them to try getting a cheaper price from their lawyer, or doctor, or auto mechanic, and see how far they get. You can't educate the ones that don't want to learn, the rest buy gladly. Wayne Seidl |
#25
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Posting is real easy to take the wrong way and best to take the right way
(that is give the person the benefit of the doubt that they meant no harm). I prefer to think the poster meant that she was going to get her ass in gear and do something productive rather than find that the day had slipped away while futzing on the idiot machine (I make my living writing software, running programs etc. so my paying job is the computer and I still find that I can lose a day of "work" having been caught up in browsing, netshopping (as opposed to the window shopping those of my generation used to do), etc. I chose to think they did not mean offense but I did think that they too easily took offense... but then don't we all at one time or another... DK my tone is not meant to be lecturing but that of musing... "Monika Schleidt" wrote in message y.telekom.at... J M wrote: I'm a female newbie to this forum, and quite dismayed that subjects can deviate from what the site is intended for. Since you are a newbie, maybe you should stick around for a while before making such critical comments. Regarding not making enough money out of pottery - well you get what you put into it.. It's the same in any self-run business. are you really, honestly, making your living from the "self-run business" of pottery, wheelthrown? No other job, no partner, husband, who earns money from a normal job? If so, i am sure there are many people in this group who would like to know more about it. I'm going to get back to my wheel now and do some 'work' instead of being stuck in front of the computer all day! This is a very arrogant statement, implying that all of us spend our time in front of the computer instead of doing "work". Most of us in this group don't talk like that to one another. Monika -- Monika Schleidt www.schleidt.org/mskeramik (If you wish to send me a mail, please leave out the number after my name!) |
#26
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wrote in message I love potters. Fascinating thread to read - thanks everyone for throwing in your thoughts on your priorities. My two cents next . . . My son introduced me to pottery five years ago. I am now as hooked as anyone could be. It has been great for me while recovering from cancer treatments. Did a lot of reading while laid up, then applied what I had read. I am finally to the stage where some of my wares are marketable. Making enough to purchase my clay is wonderful! (I do naked raku.) My son, however, returned home last year from a road trip and decided that he would make art "his job." We supported him as best we could while trying to convey some of the practical realities. The 'rover commercial just made me laugh -- instantaneous realization for one young man of what we had been trying to do for almost a year. My son, like me, has a passion for pottery, but he has now decided that a day job has been a good way to pay his rent and eat. Judy L |
#27
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"Deborah M Riel" wrote in message ... In article , dkat wrote: snip That is what I think this tread started on. The feeling that we as a country do not value potters and that is relevant to the group. Or at least I think it is. DKat This is so true. I made a lamp. The base was wheel formed and hand built, then wood fired. The shade was my own design--executed by me in stained glass. I did all the design work, glazing, hours on the wood kiln, glass work, and wiring of the lamp. I paid for the materials, time in the studio, and firing fees. I have a degree in art from a good art school, plus I've been studying beyond art school for years. Someone at work asked me if my lamp was for sale. I quoted a price of $400, and this person was visibly shocked. I work with mathematicians who would think nothing of charging 3 or 4 times as much as that for the same amount of hours that they invest in one of their research projects. How much an hour do you pay your doctor/dentist/lawyer? I think people have an idea that art doesn't need to be valued because they think that anyone can do it. Or maybe that it doesn't have any value in our fast moving technological world, where the bottom line rules. Art represents the humanity in all of us, and that seems to be an undervalued commodity all around. Of course, the big question is, how do we turn this around? Deb R. What I call flat art (painting, drawing etc) is more highly valued. |
#28
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"dkat" wrote in message . net... This really isn't the way to kill a thread.... Maybe set it on fire... Potters are one of the few groups out there in suburbia that actually needs some type of truck (for hauling kilns, ware, etc) and might justify having a SUV as they now stand. The lawyer driving to the commuter station, briefcase in tow, on the other hand really doesn't. In fact 90% of SUV owners do not need and should not have a SUV until the SUVs meet pollution standards the same as other personal vehicles. There are plenty of vehicles that will carry a bunch of kids (which is the excuse most suburbanites use) that also follow the requirements to keep pollution low and that don't put other people in danger. It isn't the 10% that actually need a SUV which people in general have a gripe with, it is the 90% that don't. Of that 90% who do I would say at least 50% of them put other people at risk by the way they drive (at least on Long Island... you know that place with ALL those off road terrains that you need SUVs for?). The commercials you see aren't geared for people that need a truck. They are for people that want to be "Cool". That is what I think this tread started on. The feeling that we as a country do not value potters and that is relevant to the group. Or at least I think it is. Good reply. I have absolutely no problem with people having vehicles with off road capability who really need that. I do have a problem with people driving them around city streets because they think they are safer (they are not) and cool (they are not) They pollute, they are more prone to rolling, bull bars should only be legal for farmers, not for mowing down pedestrians. I believe that they alter some driver behaviour. Some people become more aggressive because they incorrectly feel safer. I am absolutely sure that I will not make very much money with pottery and I could not afford to be doing it if I was supporting the family. My husband however works too. |
#29
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wrote in message . .. This puts me in mind of a famous story about my other profession, one that pays slightly less than pottery: writing. Legend has it that a very celebrated Canadian novelist, Margaret Laurence, was at a gala and was engaged in conversation with a neurosurgeon. At a point in the conversation he confessed that he had always wanted to write a novel and was thinking he might do it when he retired. At which she exclaimed, "What a coincidence! I'm planning on becoming a neurosurgeon when I retire!" Perhaps on overstatement, but it speaks to the disregard many people have for the complexity, artistry and brute skill/training involved in the act of creating something. Our ability to acquire so much, so many mass-produced things, leads to a certain arrogance, as if my ability to pay for something somehow raises me onto a par with someone who makes something: creating and purchasing are very different things. Anyway, I'm actually shocked at how little pottery sells for. Spectacular centrepiece bowls that you know are going to be the focal point of an entire room routinely sell for $80-$200 around here. A painting? $700-$5000. And with pottery discussions of cost almost seem to come back to discussions of the time involved, or the cost of materials, which to my mind are totally irrelevant - an object with aesthetic value, one that triggers a response on an aesthetic level has value beyond its functionality. If I were pressed on the subject, I would say that beauty is often undervalued - not something you can kick the tires of. Solution? I don't know. But I'm always proud of potters who stand by the value of their work, who charge what they believe it is worth rather than what they think they can get. Not necessarily practical, you can price yourself right out of business. But threads like this, discussing the value it plays in our lives and others is probably very important, if nothing else to bolster each other in our work. Thanks to all the posters - I've actually been checking back daily to read this thread, because I find it quite inspirational. Simon Yep I find it interesting too. I agree that pottery is undervalued. On the writing thing, I do agree that the skill of the writer cannot be underestimated however some retired people write wonderful things. My Dad in his last years wrote a book that is autobiographical but also about his grandfathers pioneering days here in NZ. It is not a literary masterpiece although it has been accepted as a nomination in the Montana book awards here in the autobiographical section. It is valuable as a history, as a glimpse of another way of life. The language used is quiant and old worldly. It would not have the same charm it does if it was too well written. |
#30
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On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:23:57 -0500, wrote:
This puts me in mind of a famous story about my other profession, one that pays slightly less than pottery: writing. Legend has it that a very celebrated Canadian novelist, Margaret Laurence, was at a gala and was engaged in conversation with a neurosurgeon. At a point in the conversation he confessed that he had always wanted to write a novel and was thinking he might do it when he retired. At which she exclaimed, "What a coincidence! I'm planning on becoming a neurosurgeon when I retire!" Of course, the difference is that just about anyone can write a novel or make pottery, with minimal training. Whether the novel or pottery is popular with the public is another matter. The neurosurgeon put in plenty of years in training before he became certified, and now he can have a whack at brain tumors and collect big bucks to do so. I sure wouldn't want to see writing or pottery limited to those who spent 8 years in training and went $100K in debt to get certified. Let's face it, these are two different worlds. The neruosurgeon picked a career in a field where there was an established critical need, and he paid his dues to get there. However much effort an artist expends in training (and I imagine it's nowhere near what an MD expends), it's simply not a "critical need" field. We can each pick our own chosen path. If someone really has a craving for material success, there are paths that make that more probable. Those who choose paths for other reasons can't expect that the material rewards will be the same. Another aspect is that MD training is *extremely* selective about who gets into medical school, but once you are accepted they make every effort to insure you are a good doctor before turning you loose. But since anyone can take up art, and no certification (thankfully!), there is a wider distribution in skill levels and quality of end product. If I pick up a novel by a brain surgeon and decide I don't like it, it's no big deal. Not so with brain surgery by a novelist! Bob Masta dqatechATdaqartaDOTcom D A Q A R T A Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis www.daqarta.com |
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