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Curious about Jade appraisal



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 2nd 08, 12:04 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
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Posts: 2
Default Curious about Jade appraisal

Recently visited China (Canton, or Guangzhou) and got pressured into
buying two jade bangles. The short story is that I wanted to buy some
Jade, and wanted the two bangles to be cut from the same stone; one
for me and one for a certain other person. I am somewhat naive and
expected US prices of $100 or so each, but was surprised when I had to
negotiate for over two hours to get two bangles for almost 3700RMB
(about $520) and a smallish "gold happiness jade" charm.

I was drawn to the pieces because they clearly are "twins" and they
are whitish with flecks of green. They also have "purple" shadows
when held up to the light; supposedly that is very good and the sales
person used terms like "mature" and "smooth" to sell the virtues of
these pieces.

I am almost certain I was ripped off although the pieces are
supposedly "A" grade, I supposedly have a guarantee (in Chinese, not
even sure what it says), and the dealer is supposedly very
respectable.

How do I find out if these two are worth anything even close to what I
paid? I assumed that buying Jade directly in China would give me
steep discounts; if I paid 3700RMB in China, does that really mean
these two are worth, say, over $2000 back here in the states? I
highly doubt it, I wouldn't buy these for anything like that. Clearly
I'm no expert, however. Even if they appraise for close to the price
I paid in China that would be OK, but again, I highly doubt it as I
see bangles for $100 and much much less.

How can I get a fair appraisal, more for curiosity and learning than
anything else?
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  #2  
Old March 2nd 08, 12:32 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W.. Rowe,
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Posts: 355
Default Curious about Jade appraisal

On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 03:04:19 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry
wrote:

How do I find out if these two are worth anything even close to what I
paid? I assumed that buying Jade directly in China would give me
steep discounts;


why would you assume you'd get steep discounts on jade, in the country where it
is valued higher than almost anywhere else in the world? In the U.S., and much
of the rest of the western world where you can buy jade, the majority of buyers
are not all that picky. If it's pretty, they're happy, which is why so much of
the jade sold here is cheap junk, either low quality, or outright dyed, or just
not actually jade. In China, while the cheap stuff is still available, it's
more there for tourists or those who cannot afford better. The Chinese
themselves value jade highly, and a higher percentage of buyers there know, and
demand, quality, and are willing to pay for it. Laws of supply and demand (good
stuff is not that common) will mean that prices for good jade will likely be
maintained at a relatively high level, not discounted much. Highly discounted
stuff would likely be junk, not worth what you paid, no matter how low the
price. Higher priced jade from a respected dealer, on the other hand, might
well be exactly what it was represented as being, and could easily be worth what
you paid. That price, by the way, is still fairly modest, as jade goes. The
very finest qualities are a rare and very high priced gem.

By the way, mainland China is not generally the original "source" of fine jade.
The finest Jadeite rough is mined in Myanmar (Burma), not china, but the extreme
interest and long history of working jade in China means they import a great
deal of jade into china to be cut and worked. That includes, by the way, large
amounts of Nephrite jade, the type of jade that's usually sort of darkish olive
green, sometimes called Siberian Jade, Taiwan Jade, Alaska jade, British
Columbia jade, and other such. Nephrite is one of two minerals called jade. The
other, Jadeite, is the more valuable of the two, has a more crystaline texture,
and comes in the whites, light greys, light green, "spinach" textures, an
intense almost emerald green (imperial jade) that can command astronomical
prices (tens of thousands of dollars per carat) But anyway. Like I said,
Mainland China, while there may be a lot of jade offered, is not generally the
"source", or the main wholesale outlet. Hong Kong is the largest of the
wholesale/dealer centers, and there, if you've got the right connections, you
might get access to true wholesale levels (though it's not likely if you're not
in the gem/jewelry trade). But a highly reputable dealer in mainland china is
most likely a highly respected retail dealer, not a wholesale one. This doesn't
mean you got ripped off, it just means you are more likely to have paid a fair
price on a material that's as saleable, or more so, in China, than elsewhere.

if I paid 3700RMB in China, does that really mean
these two are worth, say, over $2000 back here in the states?


You're assuming you bought them at a wholesale level. Why are you making that
assumption? You bought them, from what it sounds like, at a retail outlet. I'd
guess the price you paid, in dollars, is not much lower than what they'd sell
for in the States. It might be, of course, but I'd not assume they would be.

I
highly doubt it, I wouldn't buy these for anything like that. Clearly
I'm no expert, however.


And this nicely illustrates the difference between the average jade buyer in the
states, and one in China. You're not an expert, and you have not learned to
appreciate the subtle differences between qualities, some of which are as much
cultural preferences as they are visual ones. Without that background, the
value of one quality over another isn't apparent to you, or to the typical U.S.
buyer. That's why even finding really good jade in the U.S. might be more
difficult than in China, since there, a higher percentage of buyers will
appreciate and recognize fine quality.

Even if they appraise for close to the price
I paid in China that would be OK, but again, I highly doubt it as I
see bangles for $100 and much much less.


It's a pretty good bet that the vast majority of the lower priced jade bangles
sold in the U.S. are not especially fine quality. Many are dyed, not natural
color. Some are not even actually jade, but related materials. Telling these
apart, by the way, is not always easy, nor is it easy to detect dyed material
without some expertise and experience. The differences between good quality
and mediocre quality can be subtle to the untrained eye, especially at first
glance just through a showcase window.


How can I get a fair appraisal, more for curiosity and learning than
anything else?


You need to find a gem appraiser who's knowlegeable about jade. This may take
some looking... The average jewelry store won't have that expertise. If you
find a store that happens to specialize in or carries a wider than usual range
of jade, then perhaps that's one place. But that's not common in the U.S.
outside the "chinatown" sorts of neighborhoods. If you live in Los Angeles, you
won't have trouble. Same thing in New York, or a number of other cities where
there's not only a large jewelry industry, but also perhaps a substantial trade
in jade, and interest in it. You may also be able to find books on jade in a
local library. There are several good ones in print, which can help to start to
educate you on jade quality.
  #3  
Old March 6th 08, 02:58 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
[email protected]
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Posts: 2
Default Curious about Jade appraisal

On Mar 2, 3:32 am, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrote:
On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 03:04:19 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry
wrote:

How do I find out if these two are worth anything even close to what I
paid? I assumed that buying Jade directly in China would give me
steep discounts;


why would you assume you'd get steep discounts on jade, in the country where it
is valued higher than almost anywhere else in the world? In the U.S., and much
of the rest of the western world where you can buy jade, the majority of buyers
are not all that picky. If it's pretty, they're happy, which is why so much of
the jade sold here is cheap junk, either low quality, or outright dyed, or just
not actually jade. In China, while the cheap stuff is still available, it's

You've made some excellent points that I hadn't thought through
properly. These aren't like the shoes we were buying for 40RMB (US
$5.50) which sell here for US$90. There's no "real" Jade market in
the US that I'm aware of, unlike the shoes. Secondly, you're right,
this was a retail establishment in the "real" consumer market of Jade,
not wholesale, which seems obvious now, but needed your insight to
help me figure out.

I suppose I shouldn't have spent so much if I didn't realise the value
of what I was purchasing. On the other hand, every time I appreciate
and admire my and my other's bangles, I do get a better feeling for
Jade; and also asking questions like this and reading this and other
articles has helped deepen my knowledge.

I'm sure I'll enjoy these pieces for a very long time and I'm now
pretty sure I paid a fair price for some good Jade, probably better
than I would have gotten here in the states, even though it's not as
much as I would have spent (former implies the latter). And I
probably would have missed out. I wasn't buying it for an investment
or to flip it, after all.

Incidentally, the dealer did tell me about the "Burma" Jade and
supposedly this is Burma Jade, A-grade stuff. I don't know about
nephrite and jadeite, etc., his English wasn't perfect, obviously.
It's white, as I said, with green flakes, purple shadows and the more
I wear it, the more I like it.

Thanks!
  #4  
Old March 7th 08, 05:50 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Maren at google
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Posts: 311
Default Curious about Jade appraisal

On Mar 5, 3:58 pm, wrote:

Incidentally, the dealer did tell me about the "Burma" Jade and
supposedly this is Burma Jade, A-grade stuff. I don't know about
nephrite and jadeite, etc., his English wasn't perfect, obviously.
It's white, as I said, with green flakes, purple shadows and the more
I wear it, the more I like it.


From your description it's clearly jadeite and not nephrite.

And thanks to Peter for the elaborations, I think I bought the right
material beads, going for jadeite rather than nephrite.

Maren
HiloBeads: Beads - Beading Supplies - Hand-made Jewelry
http://www.hilobeads.com/
(yes, I know, I shouldn't call that jewelry here, I'm just a bead
person)
  #5  
Old March 7th 08, 06:14 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W.. Rowe,
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 355
Default Curious about Jade appraisal

On Thu, 06 Mar 2008 20:50:11 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Maren at google
wrote:

On Mar 5, 3:58 pm, wrote:

Incidentally, the dealer did tell me about the "Burma" Jade and
supposedly this is Burma Jade, A-grade stuff. I don't know about
nephrite and jadeite, etc., his English wasn't perfect, obviously.
It's white, as I said, with green flakes, purple shadows and the more
I wear it, the more I like it.


From your description it's clearly jadeite and not nephrite.

And thanks to Peter for the elaborations, I think I bought the right
material beads, going for jadeite rather than nephrite.


Neither is right or wrong, they each have their respective strengths. Nephrite,
for example, is less "crystaline" looking, and for some uses, that's nice. Also
the usually much lower price makes it attractive in some instances. It's also
tougher and harder to break, though both types of jade (nephrite or jadeite) are
quite tough as far as gem materials go. Jadeite is of course, the more highly
valued in it's finest qualites, but as I say, for some uses, nephrite may be
the preferred choice. Which is right, depends on your use and tastes.


Maren
HiloBeads: Beads - Beading Supplies - Hand-made Jewelry
http://www.hilobeads.com/
(yes, I know, I shouldn't call that jewelry here, I'm just a bead
person)


If it's jewelry, call it so. Jewelry does not mean it must be metal. I'm
writing this now from the annual meeting of the Society of North American
Goldsmiths (SNAG). Lots of wonderfully creative jewelers here. I had dinner
with, among others, a nice lady who, in her midlife age range, went back to
school learned jewelry making, and is now just finishing up her well deserved
Masters degree. None of the wonderful jewelry she was wearing was made of
metal. Paper, bone, porcelain, and other things, but little if any metal.
Another lady at the table showed off an absolutely stunning and sumptuous
necklace made of fabric, to which she'd stiched some 60 thousand seed beeds. An
amazing piece of work, which she says took her over 200 hours. Again, no metal,
mostly bead work, and clearly deserving of the term jewelry.

Jewelry is jewelry. Whether its metal or some other material, the key to
whether it deserves respect for it's craftsmanship, and/or for it's aesthetics
and are, are not dependent on the material, but rather how, and how well, those
materials have been used. There are people who, never having had any art
training (either self taught or in school), who see some cute bracelets at some
cheap crafts fair, and figure, correctly, that they could do that. So the buy
some beads and string up their own, are proud of themselves and think they've
made art. Sometimes, rarely, they have. Usually they've just copied someone
elses work. Still, this is a start. with practice, they can get creative, and
explore the material. If they get past the stage of doing things they've
already seen elsewhere, and start doing their own explorations with a material,
and explore pushing it in directions that may be new to them or better, new to
the material in general, then that creative effort can well deserve the respect
as, and the term, fine art. Doesn't matter if it's beads, or silver, or paper
mache. These are just the "paint". It's the picture and the creative thought
and work that determine it's worthyness and identity.

This group, while mostly a tradition of metalworkers, welcomes discussion about
jewelry making itself, both the craft skills and craft level, and the fine art
level of working. Those who are just beginning are encouraged to keep at it,
keep exploring, keep learning.

Now, it's true that bead workers don't spend as much time here. That's mostly
because there are several other newsgroups spec ifically devoted to bead work.
And this group has some members who have occasionall shown little patience with
people who find a new hobby doing some very simple beading projects that amount
to little more that basic hobby crafting with little skill or creativity, but
who are now convined that their new website selling their simple things will
bring the world to their door and the dollars to follow, with acclaim as artists
closely behind. Understandably, some people are unkind to such grandiose
expectations, as they tend to discount and degrade the higher levels of
experience and excellence that many professional and serious amateurs try to
achieve.

But even if you're a beginner, if your work is sincere, your desire to learn and
advance also real, you'll find plenty of people to welcome you. No apologies
needed.

cheers

Peter
  #6  
Old March 9th 08, 04:12 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Maren at google
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 311
Default OT, thanks to Peter. was: Curious about Jade appraisal

First of all, thanks for taking the time for such a long and nice
reply.
I'm one of the more-or-less regulars on rec.craft.beads and I come
here
to learn other stuff. I just felt that my .sig is almost inappropriate
for this newsgroup :-)

(comments in text)

On Mar 6, 7:14 pm, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrote:
On Thu, 06 Mar 2008 20:50:11 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Maren at google

wrote:
On Mar 5, 3:58 pm, wrote:


And thanks to Peter for the elaborations, I think I bought the right
material beads, going for jadeite rather than nephrite.


Neither is right or wrong, they each have their respective strengths. Nephrite,
for example, is less "crystaline" looking, and for some uses, that's nice. Also
the usually much lower price makes it attractive in some instances. It's also
tougher and harder to break, though both types of jade (nephrite or jadeite) are
quite tough as far as gem materials go. Jadeite is of course, the more highly
valued in it's finest qualites, but as I say, for some uses, nephrite may be
the preferred choice. Which is right, depends on your use and tastes.


Most of the bangles and carved things I see here are nephrite. I'm not
a carver,
and other than beads and wire and such things I don't resell stuff (I
have recently
turned into a bit of a bead store, but mostly to supply myself and
other people
locally with things that either can't be found here or are very
expensive, before
that I wasn't reselling anything, and I probably wouldn't have gotten
into buying
as much jadeite as I did).

To me jadeite has more character, and being tougher is more
appropriate to
what I make.

(it almost hurts to cut what Peter wrote, but for brevity I'm just
going to keep
what I'm commenting on)

If it's jewelry, call it so.


Well, it is and it isn't. A lot of it is farmers market stuff for
tourists.
Locally made in Hawaii, and, I admit that I actually like most of it.

Jewelry is jewelry. Whether its metal or some other material, the key to
whether it deserves respect for it's craftsmanship, and/or for it's aesthetics
and are, are not dependent on the material, but rather how, and how well, those
materials have been used. There are people who, never having had any art
training (either self taught or in school), who see some cute bracelets at some
cheap crafts fair, and figure, correctly, that they could do that.


I run into that a lot. My craftsmanship isn't great, my manual
dexterity
isn't great and I probably need new glasses (but just for that, and
with a full
time job and being able to read both paper and computer it hasn't hit
the
priority list yet). A lot of people think they can make what I make,
and then
there's the remarks on the other side "Did you make that? That's
gorgeous"
- people at work know I make things and wear the things I make.

It's the picture and the creative thought
and work that determine it's worthyness and identity.


I have a bead customer who makes really unique things. Yet, I think
it's a matter of taste, I'd rather wear mine than hers any time.

Those who are just beginning are encouraged to keep at it,
keep exploring, keep learning.


Thank you Peter, and that's why I come here.

And this group has some members who have occasionally shown little patience with
people who find a new hobby doing some very simple beading projects that amount


And some of those people are very very good. If somebody can't see
past
the very little patience they might as well not be here.

But even if you're a beginner, if your work is sincere, your desire to learn and
advance also real, you'll find plenty of people to welcome you. No apologies
needed.


Thanks again,
Aloha,
Maren
(posting this rather than replying by email, because this isn't just
to Peter)
  #7  
Old November 9th 09, 04:11 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Cochise2112
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Posts: 1
Default Curious about Jade appraisal

Hi,
I have a wonderful Jade Jar that I inherited from my father. It is
complete with lid, and has hand carved rings that are carved out of
the original body. My father was in the merchant marine for 40 years
and he picked up a lot of things from overseas like this. He also
picked up trees made of jade and pocke****ches made of silver that say
"siam" on the bodies...
This "vessel" is really the nicest thing I own... It's one solid
piece, except for the lid, and there's these rings that are free
hanging that are carved out of the side of the vessel...
Unfortunately,in this age of 10.2% unemployment, I'm looking to
findout how much I can get for things like this.
I have easy access to San Francisco and Salt Lake City, do you have
any leads on peope that can give me an HONEST appraisal of my items?

Thanks,

Pete
  #8  
Old January 12th 10, 03:37 PM
minhthanh77 minhthanh77 is offline
Junior Member
 
First recorded activity by CraftBanter: Jan 2010
Posts: 3
Default

with modern tools and methods, yes. Doing it with starting raw materials and
tools available to the 7th century byzantine goldsmith might be a bit more
daunting. A ring like that, for example, likely was not cast, so one would need
to have some skill with chisels or engraving tools to do the carving, and the
steel back then wasn't as good, not to mention the fact that the goldsmith would
have had to make his own tools beforehand. Remember, files for shaping metal
were not yet available either. Most forming would be with hammers... And
you couldn't just go to your metals dealer and buy ready to use sheet or wire...

Also, the niello (black) inlay isn't quite as simple to do as might seem,
especially with ancient technologies. Doable? certainly. But I think I'd take
the word "very" out from your sentance...
 




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