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#1
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Help with polishing argentium silver
Hello
I have tumble polished a few batches of things and was very pleased with my results.........until the last batch that is. It came out more tarnished, almost like it was coated with copper. I can think of a few things that I did differently, but don't know where to start. (Maybe everything.) The batch was mainly some argententian wire settings that I soldered for some irregularly shaped tiny geodes. (From looking at them, it is easy to see that I started as a wire wrapper.) Possible thing I can think of: 1. Instead of Dawn, I accidentally put in a squirt of Palmolive Oxy. 2. I put them all back into the pickle pot. Not much help. I will make up a new batch of pickle. 3. We have well water. it sometimess smellss of sulphur. - Thiss wasn't a problem before, but I will use distilled water next time. 4. There were 2 small pieces of copper wire in the batch that I had experimented with soldering and forgot to take out. That's it. I am going to restart everything, but I don't know if this batch is salvageable. If I knew what out of this lit made it happen, then it would be a cheap way to oxidize argenteum silver. Linda |
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#2
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Help with polishing argentium silver
On Nov 29, 4:57 pm, gloflyer wrote:
Hello I have tumble polished a few batches of things and was very pleased with my results.........until the last batch that is. It came out more tarnished, almost like it was coated with copper. I can think of a few things that I did differently, but don't know where to start. (Maybe everything.) The batch was mainly some argententian wire settings that I soldered for some irregularly shaped tiny geodes. (From looking at them, it is easy to see that I started as a wire wrapper.) Possible thing I can think of: 1. Instead of Dawn, I accidentally put in a squirt of Palmolive Oxy. 2. I put them all back into the pickle pot. Not much help. I will make up a new batch of pickle. 3. We have well water. it sometimess smellss of sulphur. - Thiss wasn't a problem before, but I will use distilled water next time. 4. There were 2 small pieces of copper wire in the batch that I had experimented with soldering and forgot to take out. That's it. I am going to restart everything, but I don't know if this batch is salvageable. If I knew what out of this lit made it happen, then it would be a cheap way to oxidize argenteum silver. Linda Hello Linda, I think your problem comes from using the Palmolive Oxy. You are creating a plating solution which is taking the copper and depositing it on the Argentium silver. Do not use DI or Distilled water as contrary to popular belief they are strong solvents. If you are unsure about your drinking water supply use bottled drinking water in your tumbler. For info. I have used Joy for tumbling but it may not be different from Dawn. Peter |
#3
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Help with polishing argentium silver
Well, I don't know what is in Palmolive Oxy so that's no help. You may want
to avoid tumbling it with copper. Have you tumbled something with patina/liver of sulphur on it? I've heard that liver of sulpher will turn silver grey, but I think you are saying that it is copper colored now? It wasn't copper colored when it came out of the pickle? Probably time to clean your tumbler and shot. -- Connie Ryman Cryman Studio "gloflyer" wrote in message ... Hello I have tumble polished a few batches of things and was very pleased with my results.........until the last batch that is. It came out more tarnished, almost like it was coated with copper. I can think of a few things that I did differently, but don't know where to start. (Maybe everything.) The batch was mainly some argententian wire settings that I soldered for some irregularly shaped tiny geodes. (From looking at them, it is easy to see that I started as a wire wrapper.) Possible thing I can think of: 1. Instead of Dawn, I accidentally put in a squirt of Palmolive Oxy. 2. I put them all back into the pickle pot. Not much help. I will make up a new batch of pickle. 3. We have well water. it sometimess smellss of sulphur. - Thiss wasn't a problem before, but I will use distilled water next time. 4. There were 2 small pieces of copper wire in the batch that I had experimented with soldering and forgot to take out. That's it. I am going to restart everything, but I don't know if this batch is salvageable. If I knew what out of this lit made it happen, then it would be a cheap way to oxidize argenteum silver. Linda |
#4
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Help with polishing argentium silver
"gloflyer" wrote in message
... Hello I have tumble polished a few batches of things and was very pleased with my results.........until the last batch that is. It came out more tarnished, almost like it was coated with copper. I can think of a few things that I did differently, but don't know where to start. (Maybe everything.) The batch was mainly some argententian wire settings that I soldered for some irregularly shaped tiny geodes. (From looking at them, it is easy to see that I started as a wire wrapper.) Possible thing I can think of: 1. Instead of Dawn, I accidentally put in a squirt of Palmolive Oxy. 2. I put them all back into the pickle pot. Not much help. I will make up a new batch of pickle. 3. We have well water. it sometimess smellss of sulphur. - Thiss wasn't a problem before, but I will use distilled water next time. 4. There were 2 small pieces of copper wire in the batch that I had experimented with soldering and forgot to take out. That's it. I am going to restart everything, but I don't know if this batch is salvageable. If I knew what out of this lit made it happen, then it would be a cheap way to oxidize argenteum silver. Linda I'm fairly new at this but have heard that if you don't completely remove binding wire before pickling it will lead to copper plating. is there any chance that your well water has any iron in it? If it does and a small particle of iron touched the piece during pickling then this should explain it. I hope this helps Ceri ) |
#5
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Help with polishing argentium silver
On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 11:14:10 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Ceri Jones"
wrote: I'm fairly new at this but have heard that if you don't completely remove binding wire before pickling it will lead to copper plating. is there any chance that your well water has any iron in it? If it does and a small particle of iron touched the piece during pickling then this should explain it. I hope this helps yes, but pickling and tumble polishing, the latter process being what's under discussion here, are entirely different processes. First, yes, you're correct, that if you pickle jewelry after soldering (etc), and still have the iron binding wire on, or if you use steel tweezers to hold the work in the pickle, then you can have copper deposited on your work. Here's what happens. The acid pickle solution is generally being used to remove the oxides from your metal after soldering. Most of those oxides are copper oxides, so the result is that the pickle, as it's used, gets a bunch of dissolved copper sulphate in it. This causes no harm in normal use. But if you introduce a piece of iron, or any metal more chemically reactive than copper into the solution, AND ITS IN ELECTRICAL CONTACT with your jewelry piece, which must be made of a metal less reactive than copper for this, such as silver or gold, then what happens is you have created an electrolytic cell, like a battery, which generates a small electric potential between the jewelry and the liquid solution and the steel, and this causes a small bit of the steel to dissolve, while simultaneously electroplating copper out on the jewelry. The result is then a fuss and a bother to clean up. In order for this to happen, the steel or iron (or for that matter, tin, pewter, lead, etc) needs to be still in it's metallic form, not already dissolved, and it needs to be in contact with the precious metal. Already dissolved iron in the pickle, or iron contaminating the water, etc, does not create this electrical potential, so in general, it does not cause problems. Also note that for copper plating to happen, there has to already be copper in solution in the pickle, such as is the case with well used pickle. A newly mixed pickle solution has no copper in solution, so it does not plate out copper even if you have iron in the pickle. (This is useful to remember, since pickle does dissolve iron, so when you break off a drill bit in your metal, fresh pickle can be used to remove it without damage to the precious metal) In the situation descrobed by the poster, first off, the process is different. Tumbling is done with steel shot already, so the question of iron contaminating the water is moot. But it's also done with alkaline soaps as lubricants, which do not form the iron salts, or cause iron to dissolve, so the potential formation of electrolytic potential isn't there. And though there's iron involved, there isn't any already dissolved copper in the solution, and the alkaline solution doesn't dissolve the iron (or copper), so no plating takes place through this mechanism. However, the alkaline soaps do still create some chemical possibilities, notably allowing things like tarnishing or discoloration if things didn't start out clean, and then there's the simple mechanical process of tumbling. If you tumble a soft piece of copper, some tiny particles of copper are removed. If there is then silver in the mix too, it's possilbe some of the copper will be litterally rubbed into the silver, both from those particles being burnished in by the steel shot, and by collision between the silver and copper. And the tumbling environment can do strange things with existing oxides and tarnish layers, sometimes transferring or altering them in unexpected ways. But iron contamination of the water used, is an unlikely possibility for the problem. Peter |
#6
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Help with polishing argentium silver
"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
... On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 11:14:10 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Ceri Jones" wrote: I'm fairly new at this but have heard that if you don't completely remove binding wire before pickling it will lead to copper plating. is there any chance that your well water has any iron in it? If it does and a small particle of iron touched the piece during pickling then this should explain it. I hope this helps yes, but pickling and tumble polishing, the latter process being what's under discussion here, are entirely different processes. First, yes, you're correct, that if you pickle jewelry after soldering (etc), and still have the iron binding wire on, or if you use steel tweezers to hold the work in the pickle, then you can have copper deposited on your work. Here's what happens. The acid pickle solution is generally being used to remove the oxides from your metal after soldering. Most of those oxides are copper oxides, so the result is that the pickle, as it's used, gets a bunch of dissolved copper sulphate in it. This causes no harm in normal use. But if you introduce a piece of iron, or any metal more chemically reactive than copper into the solution, AND ITS IN ELECTRICAL CONTACT with your jewelry piece, which must be made of a metal less reactive than copper for this, such as silver or gold, then what happens is you have created an electrolytic cell, like a battery, which generates a small electric potential between the jewelry and the liquid solution and the steel, and this causes a small bit of the steel to dissolve, while simultaneously electroplating copper out on the jewelry. The result is then a fuss and a bother to clean up. In order for this to happen, the steel or iron (or for that matter, tin, pewter, lead, etc) needs to be still in it's metallic form, not already dissolved, and it needs to be in contact with the precious metal. Already dissolved iron in the pickle, or iron contaminating the water, etc, does not create this electrical potential, so in general, it does not cause problems. Also note that for copper plating to happen, there has to already be copper in solution in the pickle, such as is the case with well used pickle. A newly mixed pickle solution has no copper in solution, so it does not plate out copper even if you have iron in the pickle. (This is useful to remember, since pickle does dissolve iron, so when you break off a drill bit in your metal, fresh pickle can be used to remove it without damage to the precious metal) In the situation descrobed by the poster, first off, the process is different. Tumbling is done with steel shot already, so the question of iron contaminating the water is moot. But it's also done with alkaline soaps as lubricants, which do not form the iron salts, or cause iron to dissolve, so the potential formation of electrolytic potential isn't there. And though there's iron involved, there isn't any already dissolved copper in the solution, and the alkaline solution doesn't dissolve the iron (or copper), so no plating takes place through this mechanism. However, the alkaline soaps do still create some chemical possibilities, notably allowing things like tarnishing or discoloration if things didn't start out clean, and then there's the simple mechanical process of tumbling. If you tumble a soft piece of copper, some tiny particles of copper are removed. If there is then silver in the mix too, it's possilbe some of the copper will be litterally rubbed into the silver, both from those particles being burnished in by the steel shot, and by collision between the silver and copper. And the tumbling environment can do strange things with existing oxides and tarnish layers, sometimes transferring or altering them in unexpected ways. Just as an aside to Peter's excellent reply: When burnishing metals it is a well known characteristic of the process for the metal being burnished to take on the color of the burnishing tool, especially if the tool is even slightly softer than the piece being burnished. That is why jewelers burnishing tools are made of very hard white metals and often are plated with Chromium. -- Don Thompson Stolen from Dan: "Just thinking, besides, I watched 2 dogs mating once, and that makes me an expert. " There is nothing more frightening than active ignorance. ~Goethe It is a worthy thing to fight for one's freedom; it is another sight finer to fight for another man's. ~Mark Twain ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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