Happiness is

Lucille wrote:
"Lucille" lzoltynospam@now at comcast..net wrote in message
...
"~Karen~" wrote in message
ers2...

I'm not talking about her parenting, but am I mistaken when I think I
remember that she supports an abstinence only until marriage program
and doesn't teach believe in teaching birth control in school?

Obviously abstinence only doesn't necessarily work for everyone ~~~
L
She indeed does not support teaching birth control and indeed does not
believe in pre-marital sex. So...
Victoria

"There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There
are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we
don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we
don't know we don't know."

Donald Rumsfeld

http://gotbodhicitta-wangmo.blogspot.com/
Lurker jumping in here. Victoria, I believe you might have been just a
bit misled here. I found this link in a very quick Google search
http://www.time.com/time/specials/pa...837538,00.html

She may believe in barrier birth control methods but as I said before, she
doesn't believe in teaching it in school and since all parents don't do the
right thing, I think it should be a part of the curriculum for kids (both
boys and girls) in the appropriate age groups. Her belief is that
abstinence till marriage is the only thing that should be taught in public
schools and that's not enough.

L


This was published in the Detroit News on 09-16-08 in an editorial by
Clarence Page (who is definitely not a supporter of Palin). I've also
included his "take" on it rather than just the part regarding her stand
on contraception.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Palin's position on abstinence education is similarly curious — and
convoluted. Various media reports said she agreed with McCain and the
GOP platform that children should be taught that abstinence until
marriage is the only safe way to avoid pregnancy and disease. After all,
that's the answer she gave on a 2006 survey during her gubernatorial
campaign.
But during a debate weeks later, she proclaimed herself
"pro-contraception" and said condoms ought to be discussed in schools
alongside abstinence. "I'm pro-contraception, and I think kids who may
not hear about it at home should hear about it in other avenues," she
said during a debate in Juneau. Palin said she opposed "explicit" sex-ed
programs, but considered other discussion of condoms to be "relatively
benign." How can one discuss condoms without being "explicit?" Beats me.
But I guess I'm just another one of those nosy elite media types.
________________________________________________

I'm not trying to be difficult but just want to keep the facts straight.
I am not one of her "fans" and believe she is a weak running mate.
Actually, that's putting it mildly! :-)
Karen

"~Karen~" wrote in message
news
Lucille wrote:
"Lucille" lzoltynospam@now at comcast..net wrote in message
...
"~Karen~" wrote in message
ers2...

I'm not talking about her parenting, but am I mistaken when I think I
remember that she supports an abstinence only until marriage program
and doesn't teach believe in teaching birth control in school?

Obviously abstinence only doesn't necessarily work for everyone ~~~
L
She indeed does not support teaching birth control and indeed does not
believe in pre-marital sex. So...
Victoria

"There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There
are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we
don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we
don't know we don't know."

Donald Rumsfeld

http://gotbodhicitta-wangmo.blogspot.com/
Lurker jumping in here. Victoria, I believe you might have been just a
bit misled here. I found this link in a very quick Google search
http://www.time.com/time/specials/pa...837538,00.html

She may believe in barrier birth control methods but as I said before,
she doesn't believe in teaching it in school and since all parents don't
do the right thing, I think it should be a part of the curriculum for
kids (both boys and girls) in the appropriate age groups. Her belief is
that abstinence till marriage is the only thing that should be taught in
public schools and that's not enough.

L
This was published in the Detroit News on 09-16-08 in an editorial by
Clarence Page (who is definitely not a supporter of Palin). I've also
included his "take" on it rather than just the part regarding her stand on
contraception.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Palin's position on abstinence education is similarly curious — and
convoluted. Various media reports said she agreed with McCain and the GOP
platform that children should be taught that abstinence until marriage is
the only safe way to avoid pregnancy and disease. After all, that's the
answer she gave on a 2006 survey during her gubernatorial campaign.
But during a debate weeks later, she proclaimed herself
"pro-contraception" and said condoms ought to be discussed in schools
alongside abstinence. "I'm pro-contraception, and I think kids who may not
hear about it at home should hear about it in other avenues," she said
during a debate in Juneau. Palin said she opposed "explicit" sex-ed
programs, but considered other discussion of condoms to be "relatively
benign." How can one discuss condoms without being "explicit?" Beats me.
But I guess I'm just another one of those nosy elite media types.
________________________________________________

I'm not trying to be difficult but just want to keep the facts straight. I
am not one of her "fans" and believe she is a weak running mate. Actually,
that's putting it mildly! :-)
Karen


If this is what she thinks, good for her. Somehow I doubt it because talk
about flip-flopping--wooeee! Of course she's a master at ducking the real
answer and personally I don't have too much trust in anything she says.

Obviously I'm not a fan of hers either and I find her unprofessional,
uninformed and not someone I would like to see wrangling with dignitaries
from other countries. As they used to say when I was a kid, she just aint
got no class.

Lucille

"Karen C in California" wrote
(snip) the parents who are too embarrassed to discuss it with their kids,
or who delude themselves into believing "not my little angel" right up
until angel comes home with a bun in the oven.

Karen
It is the 21st C--how about the male little angels who father these
children?? Their parents are often just as astonished.

Dawne

"Dawne Peterson" wrote

"Karen C in California" wrote
(snip) the parents who are too embarrassed to discuss it with their kids,
or who delude themselves into believing "not my little angel" right up
until angel comes home with a bun in the oven.

Karen
It is the 21st C--how about the male little angels who father these
children?? Their parents are often just as astonished.

Dawne
Sorry Karen, didn't mean to snap at you. I remember all too well the era I
grew up in, when girls "got pregnant" (all by themselves apparently) and
were thrown out of school, while nothing happened to the boys involved
(unless of course they were "forced to marry her"--no one suggested that the
girl might be equally forced to do something she might well regret for a
long time after). The message was that girls had to be careful, girls had
to fight off boys at all costs, etc etc or they would be ruined for life and
no nice man would ever want them, while boys were not given any messages
about responsibility, and even got a bit of a nudge nudge wink wink. I
think that should be left well in a past I don't want to revisit.

I think the time has long past that all kids be taught, and that this not be
all about girls.

Dawne

Dawne Peterson wrote:

It is the 21st C--how about the male little angels who father these
children?? Their parents are often just as astonished.

Dawne

Sorry Karen, didn't mean to snap at you.



No problemo, you're right, I should've said something about the boys,
too, but they can always (temporarily) get themselves off the hook with
"not me", "musta been some other dude", whereas the girls it's pretty
clear to Mommy and Daddy that yes, it WAS "your little angel", she can't
just say she's carrying it for a friend.

In my year, a good friend was forced to drop out of school. The next
year, there were so many of them it would've decimated the class, so the
decision was made to allow them to stay in school. My best friend
called in a tizzy after rehearsal, during graduation, she would have to
sit next to a girl who was about to pop, what should she do if the
moment came during the ceremony? My advice was, X's dad's a doctor, and
four or five of the mothers are nurses, so just point to her and yell
"is there a doctor in the house" and let the professionals deal with it.


--
Karen C - California
Editor/Proofreader www.IntlProofingConsortium.com

OCTOBER IS DISABILITY AWARENESS MONTH

Finished 10/7/08 - Sun Fun (Dimensions)

WIP: Nativity from "Countdown to Christmas" book, Oriental Kimono
(Janlynn),
MLI The Teacher (gift to the library), Bethany Angel (Marbek)
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel, MLI Farmers Market

CFSfacts -- where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf
Newest research blog: http://journals.aol.com/kmc528/Lifeasweknowit/
AOL BLOGS CLOSING OCTOBER 31

Karen C in California wrote:
Lucille wrote:
She may believe in barrier birth control methods but as I said
before, she doesn't believe in teaching it in school and since all
parents don't do the right thing, I think it should be a part of the
curriculum for kids (both boys and girls) in the appropriate age
groups. Her belief is that abstinence till marriage is the only
thing that should be taught in public schools and that's not enough.


Hmmm... Apparently, her teachings didn't rub off on her own daughter.
Surely that's a good enough object lesson that school teachings need to
be a bit more realistic than 'Abstain!'


The problem is, no matter what age group the school board decides is
"appropriate", the parents will be convinced it's too early and for some
kids it'll be too late.

Well, IME, that's certainly the case. Some kids need the information
yesterday and others just aren't ready to compute it all and work it
into a sensible world-view. Only parents are truly equipped to deal with
these important matters, but for many, many reasons, lots of parents
just don't. A responsible State will ensure that every young person has
access to accurate and reliable information regarding their bodies,
development and personal health. IMHO.

It's a *much* bigger topic than the pure mechanics of what goes on, also
IMHO.

A friend of Mom's was the school nurse. She stopped at our house one
day while I was in HS to ask me about boys. She was working at the
elementary school and while walking around the playground on her lunch
break, had found a couple of 8 y/o's doing it in the bushes. I
confirmed her recollection that when I was that age, boys still had
cooties and we wouldn't have even touched them on the shoulder
willingly. I couldn't have been more than 7 or 8 years older than they
were, and even I was shocked at how early they were starting.

When I was teaching, I happened upon a pair of ten-year-olds
in-flagrante-almost-delicto! I nearly wet meself, let me tell you! These
kids came from a very poor socio-economic area where, apparently, it was
not uncommon for Mum and Dad to share love's fond embrace in full view
of their families. A staggering number of kids from that area knew all
about the birds and the bees thanks to their generous parental units.

!!!

When you get feral behaviour like that from the older generation, how on
earth do you manage to warn the younger one about responsible sexual
practices???

A lot of it is, for hundreds of years we were accustomed to puberty
being age 14-15, but for whatever reason, nowadays some of them are
starting medically-defined puberty in second grade, but the thought
process hasn't caught up to the facts that some grade schoolers are
capable of getting pregnant.


I believe it has less to do with puberty and a lot more to do with
social pressures on children to at least *act* grown-up and more
sexually aware than they are. Along with that, our younger generations
are developing much more rudimentary relationship skills than we did and
our parents before us. When I say that, I mean kids today don't know how
to treat each other in intimate relationships and nor do they know how
to teach others to treat them. Girls are willing to put their bodies and
self-respect on the line for pimple-faced youths who happened to smile
at them nicely or bought them a drink! Boys expect that girls will allow
the complete invasion of their bodies and their spirits simply because
they (the boys) demand it. It was pretty hard to cope with when I was
young; it's immeasurably harder now!

--
Trish Brown {|:-}

Newcastle, NSW, Australia

Dawne Peterson wrote:
"Dawne Peterson" wrote
"Karen C in California" wrote
(snip) the parents who are too embarrassed to discuss it with their kids,
or who delude themselves into believing "not my little angel" right up
until angel comes home with a bun in the oven.

Karen
It is the 21st C--how about the male little angels who father these
children?? Their parents are often just as astonished.

Dawne
Sorry Karen, didn't mean to snap at you. I remember all too well the era I
grew up in, when girls "got pregnant" (all by themselves apparently) and
were thrown out of school, while nothing happened to the boys involved
(unless of course they were "forced to marry her"--no one suggested that the
girl might be equally forced to do something she might well regret for a
long time after). The message was that girls had to be careful, girls had
to fight off boys at all costs, etc etc or they would be ruined for life and
no nice man would ever want them, while boys were not given any messages
about responsibility, and even got a bit of a nudge nudge wink wink. I
think that should be left well in a past I don't want to revisit.

I think the time has long past that all kids be taught, and that this not be
all about girls.

Dawne




Yes! My DSD is currently pregnant and her boyfriend has suddenly decided
to decamp rather than stick around and maintain their relationship.
Dealing with this whole mess has certainly brought back some awful
memories for me (was in the same position at around the same age). More
than anything, it has highlighted the fact that *girls* carry the can
for all this sexual activity! Either they face a life-changing pregnancy
and birth or they choose the other path, which isn't easy for *any*one
to deal with, let alone a young girl who recently had stars in her eyes
about a rosy future that probably included a husband or lifetime
companion. The boys shake their heads and make sad noises, but - ah -
it's not quite the same as what the girls go through!

--
Trish Brown {|:-}

Newcastle, NSW, Australia

Trish Brown wrote:
Girls are willing to put their bodies and
self-respect on the line for pimple-faced youths who happened to smile
at them nicely or bought them a drink! Boys expect that girls will allow
the complete invasion of their bodies and their spirits simply because
they (the boys) demand it.



Oh, absolutely. I was riding the trolley a few years ago, with a
hugely-pregnant teenager (and I'm guessing on the 13/14 end of the
scale) who asserted to her friends that she "knows he loves me, because
he had s*x with me!"

Obviously, her mother had never told her that s*x does not equate to love.


--
Karen C - California
Editor/Proofreader www.IntlProofingConsortium.com

OCTOBER IS DISABILITY AWARENESS MONTH

Finished 10/7/08 - Sun Fun (Dimensions)

WIP: Nativity from "Countdown to Christmas" book, Oriental Kimono
(Janlynn),
MLI The Teacher (gift to the library), Bethany Angel (Marbek)
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel, MLI Farmers Market

CFSfacts -- where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf
Newest research blog: http://journals.aol.com/kmc528/Lifeasweknowit/
AOL BLOGS CLOSING OCTOBER 31

On 10/9/08 7:26 AM, in article , "Karen C
in California" wrote:

Trish Brown wrote:
Girls are willing to put their bodies and
self-respect on the line for pimple-faced youths who happened to smile
at them nicely or bought them a drink! Boys expect that girls will allow
the complete invasion of their bodies and their spirits simply because
they (the boys) demand it.



Oh, absolutely. I was riding the trolley a few years ago, with a
hugely-pregnant teenager (and I'm guessing on the 13/14 end of the
scale) who asserted to her friends that she "knows he loves me, because
he had s*x with me!"

Obviously, her mother had never told her that s*x does not equate to love.



I have been trying to talk to both of mine about sex and why you should wait
until you know it's love not lust. (I'm no fool, I know they won't wait for
marriage, but I can hope they'll wait for a real relationship.)

It's about self respect and respect for the other person.


I really think we've swung to far to the permissive side and need to swing
back toward the "nice girls don't". AND add "nice boys don't" to the
equation.


C

"Cheryl Isaak" wrote in message
...
On 10/9/08 7:26 AM, in article , "Karen C
in California" wrote:

Trish Brown wrote:
Girls are willing to put their bodies and
self-respect on the line for pimple-faced youths who happened to smile
at them nicely or bought them a drink! Boys expect that girls will allow
the complete invasion of their bodies and their spirits simply because
they (the boys) demand it.



Oh, absolutely. I was riding the trolley a few years ago, with a
hugely-pregnant teenager (and I'm guessing on the 13/14 end of the
scale) who asserted to her friends that she "knows he loves me, because
he had s*x with me!"

Obviously, her mother had never told her that s*x does not equate to
love.



I have been trying to talk to both of mine about sex and why you should
wait
until you know it's love not lust. (I'm no fool, I know they won't wait
for
marriage, but I can hope they'll wait for a real relationship.)

It's about self respect and respect for the other person.


I really think we've swung to far to the permissive side and need to swing
back toward the "nice girls don't". AND add "nice boys don't" to the
equation.


C


If you believe it's inevitable that at some point before they get married
they will have sex, I do hope that at the appropriate time you will at the
very least urge them to use birth control.

Lucille