New Net Knot?

I hope this information is new to this group's readers.

Carlsen Net A/S of Denmark is a manufacturer of nets and trawls. It
says that "A trawl gets a little inferior every time you use it. The
villain is the knots , they slips concurrently with the load."

They have introduced the "C-Knot" and say, "The C-knot raises a new
standard for trawls. The C-knot is constructed so that it stays in
place, no matter which of the four ropes is loaded."

Information on Carlsen's "C-Knot", including their test, is available
from their site: http://www.carlsen-net.dk/. They also have .PDF file
that I found handy when I tried to tie the knot.

I managed to tie the knot from the pictures in the .PDF file. However,
I know there is a better method to tie the C-knot than my fumbling!
After all, a net has thousands of knots! (I haven't found the method
yet. Drat! It will turn out to be simple! Double Drat!)

Has anyone seen this knot before? Is it related to another knot?

I look forward to reading your thoughts on this knot ... have a good
net knotting time - Brian.

Wow, you must be psychic to figure out the correct configuration for
the knot from that confusing diagram.

The knot seems rather bulky, but maybe they have a mechanical method
of tying it that they feel justifies it. I wonder if they tried any
other knots or methods of net tying or net treatment to prevent
slippage. I also wonder how much more the net weighs and costs. I'll
withhold judgement since I'm unable to reproduce the knot with
confidence, but I get a gut feeling that there's a good chance this is
not such a good idea.

Maybe I'll e-mail them to find out about it... when I get time next
week.

Cheers,
roo

(Brian Grimley) wrote in message . com...
I hope this information is new to this group's readers.

Carlsen Net A/S of Denmark is a manufacturer of nets and trawls. It
says that "A trawl gets a little inferior every time you use it. The
villain is the knots , they slips concurrently with the load."

They have introduced the "C-Knot" and say, "The C-knot raises a new
standard for trawls. The C-knot is constructed so that it stays in
place, no matter which of the four ropes is loaded."

Information on Carlsen's "C-Knot", including their test, is available
from their site: http://www.carlsen-net.dk/. They also have .PDF file
that I found handy when I tried to tie the knot.

I managed to tie the knot from the pictures in the .PDF file. However,
I know there is a better method to tie the C-knot than my fumbling!
After all, a net has thousands of knots! (I haven't found the method
yet. Drat! It will turn out to be simple! Double Drat!)

Has anyone seen this knot before? Is it related to another knot?

I look forward to reading your thoughts on this knot ... have a good
net knotting time - Brian.

(a fake roo) wrote in message news:

Wow, you must be psychic to figure out the correct configuration
for the knot from that confusing diagram.

I concur in that emotion, although I too believe I got it
(with about a 50% confidence ).

Brian asks if it has been seen befo MAYBE! ('cause, afterall, I'm
not sure I'm seeing it now). I found a fine (& clear) monofilament
(nylon?) netting along Cape May Point beach, and noted its unusual
mesh-knot. Usual if of course the bowlinesque form, with a runner-up
being an unusual "double" of this form. If you think following the
image on-line is tricky (you're right, there), try analyzing a tiny
translucent tangle of monofilament tightly knotted! --yes, with a
nice globe (reading papers) manifying lenses & inverted binoculars.
(Hey, I could mail out clips from this--think I've got maybe a dozen
joints (and think more awaits me, on the rocks still--wedged flotsam).)

After about a year & more of occasional futile attempts, I figured
it out (I think). And what I got is nearly what I got for the "C-knot"
on-line, EXCEPThat I have one part connecting to a different one than
they do (say, e.g., West connects to North instead of to East, if you
assume a normalized 4-points-of-compass mesh form). And it could be
that indeed these forms are both used (though I've my doubts. In any
case, the exterior images match up but for this discrepancy (which at
least is conspicuous in their image, as they color-code the two lines).
[In non-"e.g." terms, what I got relative theirs, given that their
WHITE lines are assigned West & North is West connecting to South

The knot seems rather bulky, but maybe they have a mechanical method
of tying it that they feel justifies it.

But note that they're using HMPE (UHMWPE), DSM's Dyneema (of some
unspecified grade (SK-60, -65, & -75 are the three, I think). This is
not only super strong (maybe Zylon (PBO) is stronger), but super slick!
So they are right to fear conventional knots.

I wonder if they tried any other knots or methods of net tying or net
treatment to prevent slippage.

I have recently read somewhere about a treatment expressly to INCREASE
friction (I think that this was done to try to get more sympathetic
involvement of adjacent fibres under tension--and maybe to HMPE fiber);
but this was aimed at internal friction.

I also wonder how much more the net weighs and costs.

Likely little & lots, resp.. (-; (But be glad it's not PBO.)

but I get a gut feeling that there's a good chance this is
not such a good idea.

Huh? I also recall reading in some recent on-line lit (hmmm, under
the Marlow stuff--don't think so, since their best bits were on big
ropes--, or DSM--who might've had some blurbs about advantages & uses
of HPME) extolling advantages of HPME netting, because of 1) lighter
net & 2) smaller line hence less water resistance (which enables using
a larger/more net/ting which would've weighed a lot but not with HMPE
.... which means pretty soon you'll have to see your fish in museums.
..:. Maybe this is not such a good idea!

Thanks for a very interesting knot find--keep it up!

--dl*
====

(Brian Grimley) wrote in message news:

(Please, edit away needless bits--spare the archival load & ease reading. :-)

On 21 Oct 2003 23:30:41 -0700, (Dan Lehman)
wrote:

(a fake roo) wrote in message news:

Wow, you must be psychic to figure out the correct configuration
for the knot from that confusing diagram.
....snip'd...
I had a couple of observations ..

First. I dont know how large nets are made commercially; small ones
are usually made with a bight and an end. I wondered if this is tied
with two bights.

Second. The diagram is a diagram; not a picture of the knot. Perhaps
it is incorrectly rendered or rendered in a way that doesnt have the
appearance of the actual knot.

(roo) wrote in message om...

maybe they have a mechanical method of tying it
I wonder if they tried any other knots or methods of net tying or
net treatment to prevent slippage.
I also wonder how much more the net weighs and costs.

Maybe I'll e-mail them to find out about it... when I get time next
week.

Cheers,
roo


I tried to figure out how a knot like this can be tied (mechanically).
I did not solve this (yet?), but there is a simple solution for a
mechanically knotted net-knot.

Tie a slipped overhand knot as on the end of the page:

http://www.scoutingresources.org.uk/...s_overhand.pdf

but with two strands of line parallel
(this is a standard technique for mechanical knotting in hay balers)
this forms a slipped thumb knot

then take one tucked bight out of the round turn (like in picture C on
the end of the pdf page)
the other bight is left in place, but twisted to form an eye

then put the end that is taken out, through the formed eye (passing
over the two parrallel round turns, instead of through them)

Is it clear what I am trying to show?
this way a net knot is formed, and it must be possible to do this
mechanically.
This is not the C-knot, but I found this form when I untied a
C-knot-like-thing (when I tried to make a C-knot)
may be this is a part of the puzzle, or helps others solving it

not proven, published, or my own experience, just part of my thinking:
the net can be a quarter of the cost and half the weight, if the knots
can withstand double the force and double its life time (ignoring
other factors, like expensive fibres/techniques )

roo, please e-mail them

likewise:

I look forward to reading your thoughts on this knot ... have a good
net knotting time - Brian.

trying knot tying,

ben

Roo wrote: Wow, you must be psychic to figure out the correct
configuration
for the knot from that confusing diagram.

Dan wrote: I concur in that emotion, although I too believe I got it
(with about a 50% confidence ).

Well ... if we are being brutally honest about our confidence level
.... :-)

Roo - the .PDF file contains not only the nifty (but frustrating) 3D
graphic of the knot but also a good picture of one side of the knot to
check against. The third picture of the knot (with the weighing scale)
just doesn't have a high enough resolution to be useful (darn). If
only there was a picture of the other side of the knot to confirm
against ...

Dan wrote:
If you think following the image on-line is tricky (you're right, there),
try analyzing a tiny translucent tangle of monofilament tightly knotted! --
yes, with a nice globe (reading papers) manifying lenses & inverted
binoculars. (Hey, I could mail out clips from this--think I've got maybe a
dozen joints (and think more awaits me, on the rocks still--wedged flotsam).)

I would love to have a try. Don't expect results though! Should I
email you my mailing address?

All the best - Brian.

The reason I think there's a good chance they didn't need to resort to
such a knot is that I've seen a net of slick synthetic material tied
with overhand knots of alternating twin lines, as shown he

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/food-4.php

It seemed to hold up just fine to abuse, and it's a breeze to
manufacture and has got to be less bulky than the mysterious C-Knot.
I'm sorry, but I don't know the manufacturer of the net to which I'm
referring. But maybe the material being used with the new C-Knot is
even more slippery.

(Dan Lehman) wrote:

I concur in that emotion, although I too believe I got it
(with about a 50% confidence ).

Here's my latest and more confident reading of the image.
Consider the white & non-white parts leading into knot as
coming from compass points NW, NE, SW, & SE; the white parts
enter/exit NW & NE (and one of their associated arrows goes
the wrong way, as arrows have that rope entering each way!)

From the NW, the line goes through opp. rope's *collar* and
down UNDER ALL to rise up near the SE entry, then arching over
itself (NE part) and behind-down UNDER ALL but itself (NW part)
and up around W side to go out NE.

The other line enters (just one direction to view it) from SW
heading NW just UNDER the top two parts of itself & white line
making a *collar* around NW line and reentering knot UNDER itself
& adjacent and emerging on S side to wrap around over the SE
entry line & down under itself emerging on W side up and over
and exiting under two parts (white & non) as the SE line.

Brian asks if it has been seen befo MAYBE!

NOT QUITE. My monofilament knot (yes, you may e-mail snailmail
address for sample, Brian) had lines going to different quadrants.
The knot is SIMILAR, but slightly different: the NE white part
and the non-white parallel part along its entry & wrap are present
but in the monofil knot one passes over the other, changing places.

And, frankly, in rope I find that the NW line will haul loose a
bit the *collar* around it, pulling material from the SW line
--seems inevitable, to me. But maybe they really tighten these
mesh knots.

I also wonder how much more the net weighs and costs.

Likely little & lots, resp..

By which I meant that the net weighs less--much less, per strength
(over nylon, PE). HMPE spec.gravity about 0.98, with nylon at 1.2?

--dl*
====

(ben) wrote :

[roo2]I tried to figure out how a knot like this can be tied
(mechanically). ...

Tie a slipped overhand knot as on the end of the page:
...
this way a net knot is formed, and it must be possible to do this
mechanically.
This is not the C-knot, but I found this form when I untied a
C-knot-like-thing (when I tried to make a C-knot)
may be this is a part of the puzzle, or helps others solving it

Ben, indeed you seem to be on the right path. I just ran through
your guidance once, but the result had resemblances of the C-knot(R)
[ "(R)"--trademarked name! ], and thus should also be close to that
other like meshknot which I found. Good thinking!

roo, please e-mail them

I submitted an on-line info request (and I think echoed that by
separate e-mail when an error response raised doubts about the
on-line form succeeding--it was a can't-get-requested-page error,
and could only indicate that the error form's attempt to relocate
me somewhere failed).

--dl*
====

Dan Lehman wrote:

.... SNIP ...
(yes, you may e-mail snailmail address for sample, Brian)
.... SNIP ...

Dan - FYI. Several attempts at different times to e-mail you at the
hotmail address all had the same result.

This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.
Delivery to the following recipients failed.

You seem to have been "excommunicated" by hotmail. :-)

Cheers,
Brian.