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Ebay Diamonds



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 22nd 08, 08:41 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Abrasha
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 298
Default Ebay Diamonds

William Black wrote:
"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
...

Pass them through an international border (by post or in your pocket) you
stand a chance of getting them impounded.

Oh? Not likely. At least not at the consumer level or with cut stones.


British Customs (I'm not sure what the agency is called this week) has just
bought a very clever device for telling the origin of diamonds by some sort
clever test, probably crystalography of some kind.


Bull****!

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
Ads
  #12  
Old June 22nd 08, 08:41 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Abrasha
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 298
Default Ebay Diamonds

William Black wrote:
"papa smurf" wrote in message
...
Hello All,

I am in the market for loose diamonds. I have been to several stores
in my area, but recently decided to look at how diamonds are selling
on E-Bay. From what auctions I have found, diamonds sell considerably
less on E-Bay. I am interested in purchasing diamonds on E-Bay;
however, my dilemma is the following:
1. I feel uncomfortable making such an expensive purchase over a wire
without seeing my product first.
2. I worry that I=92m getting scammed.
3. I wonder if I truly am getting the best deal.
4. I=92m not sure what probing questions to ask for my protection.
Can anyone offer good suggestions as to how I can protect myself while
making such a large purchase? I would also love to hear from folks
who have actually purchased diamonds on e-bay. I appreciate your
advice and time!


Diamonds without a certificate of origin these days may be 'blood diamonds'.


Very small chance. Besides, even if the stone comes with a
"certificate" stating that it is not a "conflict diamond" (That is the
correct term. You seem to get your knowledge from Hollywood), it is no
guarantee, that it is actually a conflict free diamond.


Pass them through an international border (by post or in your pocket) you
stand a chance of getting them impounded.


What makes you think he wants to "pass then through an international
border" (are there any other borders?). Most likely he wants to buy a
stone that has already been imported.


These days the diamond investment market is plunging like a stone. It's an
artificial market that has a very limited lifetime now that everyone has
realised that it's a cartel cheating them.


There is no cheating. However deBeers is very upfront about the fact,
that they control diamond prices very strictly and successfully.

I strongly suggest you inform yourself a bit more about the diamond
trade, it's history and it's complexities


Buy rubies, you can't fake them or manufacture them.


Oh yes you can. This has been done quite successfully. People get
cheated in Thailand on a daily basis. Even professional jewelry buyers.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
  #13  
Old June 22nd 08, 08:43 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Abrasha
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 298
Default Ebay Diamonds

Heinrich Butschal wrote:
papa smurf schrieb:
Hello All,

I am in the market for loose diamonds. I have been to several stores
in my area, but recently decided to look at how diamonds are selling
on E-Bay. From what auctions I have found, diamonds sell considerably
less on E-Bay. I am interested in purchasing diamonds on E-Bay;
however, my dilemma is the following:
1. I feel uncomfortable making such an expensive purchase over a wire
without seeing my product first.

This won't help. Especially if You are not a diamond expert you can't fix the
quality and the worth of the diamond by yourself.
2. I worry that I'm getting scammed.
3. I wonder if I truly am getting the best deal.


If You will buy cheap the risk is higher that You will get a banana.


In the US it's called a "lemon"

So it is
better to buy in a store witch is well known and


I do not agree. Buying from a "store" is always more expensive, since
you will have to pay part of their overhead, i.e. rent, insurance, etc.

eg. a company of good
standing. They won't cheat You.


I beg to differ. Some of the biggest swindles have been perpetrated by
"companies in good standing".
http://www.2bangkok.com/2bangkok/Scams/sapp10.shtml
http://www.gemsny.com/guide/top-10-d...elry-business/

And, ... remember Enron (albeit not a jewelry company)


4. I'm not sure what probing questions to ask for my protection.
Can anyone offer good suggestions as to how I can protect myself while
making such a large purchase? I would also love to hear from folks
who have actually purchased diamonds on e-bay. I appreciate your
advice and time!


Look here for diamanonds wich are second hand ans so far not too expensive.
http://www.schmuck-boerse.com/index-...-diamant-2.htm


Dude, the guy posting is most likely from the US. Do you really think
it is useful to offer him a place to buy a stone from Germany, when he
has just told you that he is not comfortable buying anything he can't see
?!?

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
  #14  
Old June 22nd 08, 08:46 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Abrasha
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 298
Default Ebay Diamonds

Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:52:20 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "William Black"
wrote:


British Customs (I'm not sure what the agency is called this week) has just
bought a very clever device for telling the origin of diamonds by some sort
clever test, probably crystalography of some kind.


Very costly machines. They detect very slight differences in the various
impurities in the crystals, which tend to vary based on location. Even then,
however, it seldom can proove origin, only suggest it, as there's significant
overlap in these properties from one location to another. They can, for
example, take some stones and know for certain that they did not come from
Sierro leone (one of the biggest problem areas), but the machine can't say this
for certain for all locations, especially stones from other parts of africa with
similar geology. And then there are the stones from Sierra Leone that happen to
be legal. Perhaps mined legally before the war, or since, etc. etc. No
separation there. And some stones, both blook diamonds and not, will simply not
give any definative reading on the machine. It's a better test than nothing,
but a long way from being even close to perfect. So far, the only real
solution has been requiring importers, cutters, dealers, to maintain a paper
trail showing the origin of the stones. But I've yet to see a retail store
offering retail customers any paperwork that verifiably continues this paper
trail, so consumers are left hanging. And dishonest dealers have been known to
forge paperwork.

I gather that if you're even wearing too much expensive looking jewellery
they get to play with it. Shipments of diamonds all get to go through it...


Shipments are probably less of a problem, since the likelyhood of proper
paperwork and documentation is higher. Such documentation is not likely with
finished jewelery, and even then, the testing may be not very meaningful. Even
if diamonds are suspected of being originally from Sierra Leone or other
conflict areas, there's no way to tell when they were mined, or if legally. You
could have a fine diamond necklace, purchased legally in Hong Cong, with
paperwork claiming conflict free diamonds, which are in fact bloody as hell, but
if properly declared at customs, this would be legal. no grounds to confiscate
it. Or another similar necklace, except from Harry Winston made in 1955, also
with stones from Seirra Leone that the machine might yell about, yet it too is
legal and the diamonds were not in a conflict then. All in all, lots of
problems with such test. But at least, smugglers don't always know this. The
real testers are likely to remain the customs officers themselves, looking for
things being brought across that they can prove are illegal, or when smugglers,
thinking themselves caught, will give away clues as to their activity.


I keep looking for these synthetic stones here in the UK, but, as I've
said before here, so far nobody seems to be interested in supplying them to
jewellers in small quantities.


In part, they're simply not available even in large quantities. Don't feel
excluded. Gemesys, the main manufacturer of the nice yellow synthetics, is not
able to make anywhere near as much as they could sell, so they hardly need to
look for new distributors, either large or small.

Then I must have misheard the chap at one gem supplier.


Look for Chatham ruby,


Tom Chatham's (http://www.chatham.com/clippings/c95-1.html) office is
here in San Francisco, one block from my studio. He makes nice Emeralds
too.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
  #15  
Old June 22nd 08, 08:26 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Heinrich Butschal[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default Ebay Diamonds

Abrasha schrieb:
Heinrich Butschal wrote:
papa smurf schrieb:
Hello All,

I am in the market for loose diamonds. I have been to several stores
in my area, but recently decided to look at how diamonds are selling
on E-Bay. From what auctions I have found, diamonds sell considerably
less on E-Bay. I am interested in purchasing diamonds on E-Bay;
however, my dilemma is the following:
1. I feel uncomfortable making such an expensive purchase over a wire
without seeing my product first.

This won't help. Especially if You are not a diamond expert you can't fix the
quality and the worth of the diamond by yourself.
2. I worry that I'm getting scammed.
3. I wonder if I truly am getting the best deal.


If You will buy cheap the risk is higher that You will get a banana.


In the US it's called a "lemon"


In Germany we call it also "mit Zirtonen gehandelt" that is meant: dealed
with lemons, if a business was bad. :-)

So it is
better to buy in a store witch is well known and


I do not agree. Buying from a "store" is always more expensive, since
you will have to pay part of their overhead, i.e. rent, insurance, etc.


Shure, however, they have due to theis bigger turnover, better conditions with
the wholesalers.

eg. a company of good
standing. They won't cheat You.


I beg to differ. Some of the biggest swindles have been perpetrated by
"companies in good standing".
http://www.2bangkok.com/2bangkok/Scams/sapp10.shtml
http://www.gemsny.com/guide/top-10-d...elry-business/



Bähh You can´t compare these with real "companies in good standing".

And, ... remember Enron (albeit not a jewelry company)


4. I'm not sure what probing questions to ask for my protection.
Can anyone offer good suggestions as to how I can protect myself while
making such a large purchase? I would also love to hear from folks
who have actually purchased diamonds on e-bay. I appreciate your
advice and time!

Look here for diamanonds wich are second hand ans so far not too expensive.
http://www.schmuck-boerse.com/index-...-diamant-2.htm


Dude, the guy posting is most likely from the US. Do you really think
it is useful to offer him a place to buy a stone from Germany, when he
has just told you that he is not comfortable buying anything he can't see
?!?


He might get a comparison of price and quality.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Welcome :-)

Mit freundlichem Gruß,
Heinrich Butschal
--
Schmuck Gutachter und Schmuckverkauf http://www.butschal.de
Schmuck nach Maß anfertigen http://www.meister-atelier.de
Firmengeschenke und Ehrennadeln http://www.goldschmiede-meister.com
Schmuckmanufaktur http://www.schmuckfabrik.de
Schmuck gut verkaufen und günstig kaufen http://www.schmuck-boerse.com
  #16  
Old June 22nd 08, 08:27 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
William Black
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default Ebay Diamonds


"Abrasha" wrote in message
...
William Black wrote:
"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
...

Pass them through an international border (by post or in your pocket)
you
stand a chance of getting them impounded.
Oh? Not likely. At least not at the consumer level or with cut stones.


British Customs (I'm not sure what the agency is called this week) has
just
bought a very clever device for telling the origin of diamonds by some
sort
clever test, probably crystalography of some kind.


Bull****!


What technology do they use?

Don't tell me the bloody thing is a PR fantasy, because it isn't.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.



  #17  
Old June 22nd 08, 08:27 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
William Black
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default Ebay Diamonds


"Abrasha" wrote in message
...
William Black wrote:


Diamonds without a certificate of origin these days may be 'blood
diamonds'.


Very small chance. Besides, even if the stone comes with a
"certificate" stating that it is not a "conflict diamond" (That is the
correct term. You seem to get your knowledge from Hollywood), it is no
guarantee, that it is actually a conflict free diamond.


Actually it comes from contact with a couple of friends who were British
soldiers who ended up in Sierra Leone and were shot at by the people selling
the things and buying guns with the profits. They called them 'Blood
Diamonds' and they had a professional interest.

Pass them through an international border (by post or in your pocket) you
stand a chance of getting them impounded.


What makes you think he wants to "pass then through an international
border" (are there any other borders?).


Oh yes. Look up 'Interstate comerce in the USA' some time

Most likely he wants to buy a
stone that has already been imported.


To where?

I live on two different continents at various times of the year and buy some
stones and jewellery. It is normal for me to cross international borders
carrying gems and jewellery.

These days the diamond investment market is plunging like a stone. It's
an
artificial market that has a very limited lifetime now that everyone has
realised that it's a cartel cheating them.


There is no cheating. However deBeers is very upfront about the fact,
that they control diamond prices very strictly and successfully.


I understand that their sucess was challenged until they managed to get the
output of the Sierra Leonian mines under their control.

It is the 'unregistered sellers' that were causing them the problem.

deBeers doesn't operate directly in the USA because their normal business
practices would be considered illegal there...


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.



  #18  
Old June 22nd 08, 08:28 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Séimí mac Liam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 48
Default Ebay Diamonds

Abrasha wrote in
:


Then I must have misheard the chap at one gem supplier.


Look for Chatham ruby,


Tom Chatham's (http://www.chatham.com/clippings/c95-1.html) office is
here in San Francisco, one block from my studio. He makes nice
Emeralds too.


And then there's these folk:
http://www.ramaura.com/article.htm

--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99

  #19  
Old June 22nd 08, 10:14 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Abrasha
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 298
Default Ebay Diamonds

William Black wrote:


deBeers doesn't operate directly in the USA because their normal business
practices would be considered illegal there...



They just opened a store last week across the street from me.

http://tinyurl.com/66f7wa

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
  #20  
Old June 22nd 08, 10:35 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W.. Rowe,
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 355
Default Ebay Diamonds

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:27:42 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "William Black"
wrote:


Oh yes. Look up 'Interstate comerce in the USA' some time



I understand that their sucess was challenged until they managed to get the
output of the Sierra Leonian mines under their control.


Sierra Leone is/was hardly the only diamond source operating outside of the
DeBeers line of control. Venezuela, Canada, Australia, and many of the Russian
sources sell, or have sold, outside of the DeBeers organization to one degree or
another. DeBeers is no longer a total monopoly. But they do still control the
majority of the sources, and that seems to be enough.


It is the 'unregistered sellers' that were causing them the problem.


Or any sellers working outside of their organization, as noted above. But for
many diamond sellers, it doesn't make too much sense to work outside of DeBeers,
since often they'll simply get the best prices through them...

Perhaps the greatest long term threat to DeBeers isn't the "out of network"
sales of rough diamonds. It may well be the developing field of synthetic
diamonds. If available in enough quantitiy, at high enough quality, to cause
serious competition with natural diamonds but at lower cost, the implications
for DeBeers could be significant. Part of their response to this has been the
aggressive work to promote DeBeers as a brand name for diamonds, rather than
just a source, as well as a lot of research in developing methods of accurately
detecting the synthetic diamonds. Much of the current crop of yellow fancy
colors, and perhaps the other fancies also being made, ARE identifiable, at
least by a good gem lab if not by the average gemologist. But the colorless
high quality stones that may be coming down the line in the future could be a
LOT more difficult to identify with certainty, and if we end up where a diamond
can no longer be absolutely identified as natural versus synthetic, the effect
on diamond prices could be dramatic, at least in the higher qualities where this
is most likely to be an issue.

deBeers doesn't operate directly in the USA because their normal business
practices would be considered illegal there...


Not any longer. The Antitrust / monopoly issues the justice department had with
DeBeers for many years were, so far as I know, settled via a rather large class
action lawsuit earlier this year. virtually anyone who'd bought diamonds,
either wholesale or retail, in the U.S. during the past ten years or something
like that, could, if they wished, file a claim to get some of the price back.
For large dealers and sellers, it made sense to file claims. For most
individuals, the payment funds would have been sufficiently diluted as to make
the end payout not much worth the paperwork. But whatever, the lawyers made a
lot of money on the suit, as they always due, and since that settlement
agreement, DeBeers is no longer under that cloud of prosecution here in the
U.S. Even the top executives, who for many years didn't travel to the U.S. to
avoid arrest here, apparently are now again free to do so if they wish. At
least, that's what the news stories said. I don't have all the details handy.
But as Abrasha has pointed out, they are now opening offices and stores in the
U.S.

Peter
 




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