Polishing Silver

"vj" wrote in message
...
vj found this in rec.crafts.jewelry, from William Black
:

]Have you considered doing some 'singletons' using cuttlefish?
]That eliminates all the wax and investment chamber problems and lets you
]concentrate on the metal composition.

i've done a LOT of 'singles'.
cuttlefish???????

Casting in cuttlefish (like your granny's parrot has in its cage) is
probably the most ancient form of silver casting, much older than 'lost
wax'.

1. Cut cuttlefish in half longitudinally with a fine saw.

2. Make an impression in it, half in the top, half in the bottom. Use
either a master you've carved, and old casting from somewhere or just cut
one out of the cuttlefish like the medieval craftsmen did.

3. Cut a sprue hole.

4. Wire the two halves together with binding wire.

5. Pour metal into sprue hole.

6. Wait until it cools...

You can get three or four copies out of a decent quality cuttlefish, all
the jewellery tool suppliers in the UK will sell you a pack of 12 for a few
quid, the cuttlefish in pet shops tends to be a bit knocked about...

It's still used now and again in the UK for 'singleton' designs.

i didn't know sterling was anything but sterling. i though it had a
pretty
precise definition.

It is, but scrap has usually been worn and so has picked up all sorts of
rubbish and stuff like polish residue in the corners.

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea

On , in àõ William Black wrote:

Casting in cuttlefish (like your granny's parrot has in its cage) is
probably the most ancient form of silver casting, much older than 'lost
wax'.

Are you really sure about that William?

While modern investments and rubber molding/wax injection technology are 20th century
innovations, lost wax casting itself has been in use for thousands of years. Large
sculptural castings of larger than life bronze figures were being done by lost wax
casting in Greek and Roman times, and on a smaller scale, I recall seeing work in the
Cairo museum that sure appeared to be lost wax, dating, if I recall correctly, to at
least a couple thousand years BC. Using natural beeswax, and clay instead of modern
investments, Ashanti craftspeople have been doing remarkably sophisticated lost wax
casting for centuries, with technology that certainly would have been easily available
to even the earliest and most primitive cultures, once they were able to actually melt
metal. I rather expect that lost wax methods could date back as far as the technologies
needed for low fire pottery.

Meanwhile, I'm unaware of any ancient castings that appear to be cast in cuttlefish
bone. While the method is simple, one does need a culture to first bother to save and
dry the cuttlefish, since straight from the squid it's not so usable. And then, the
results are, at best, rather rough. Before the advent of steel files and tools, a
cuttle fish casting would be a royal pain in the rear to clean up, not to mention a fine
way to insure the waste of more metal than involved in casting via methods that provide
a finer surface. Again, I'm just assuming, but I'd guess that cuttlefish casting is a
rather recent (last few hundred years perhaps) innovation, developed as a quick trick
for a fast casting in commercial use, rather than a seriously used older method. I'd
generally expect ancient cultures who might have tried cuttlefish casting, to reject it
in favor of, say, sand casting, or casting into things like carved stone molds,
including things like the modern use by American Indian cultures of volcanic Tuff as a
casting mold material. I don't know about ancient use of Tuff, but we do have
surviving examples of harder stone casting molds from ancient and medieval times...

Peter

"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
...
On , in àõ William Black wrote:

Casting in cuttlefish (like your granny's parrot has in its cage) is
probably the most ancient form of silver casting, much older than 'lost
wax'.

Are you really sure about that William?

While modern investments and rubber molding/wax injection technology are
20th century
innovations, lost wax casting itself has been in use for thousands of
years. Large
sculptural castings of larger than life bronze figures were being done by
lost wax
casting in Greek and Roman times, and on a smaller scale, I recall seeing
work in the
Cairo museum that sure appeared to be lost wax, dating, if I recall
correctly, to at
least a couple thousand years BC.

If that's the case then I'm probably wrong.

Most of my knowledge of early jewellery making is 'England' based, mainly
because I've been employed to do Living History displays of silversmithing
and jewellery making and that's what I did my research about.

'Lost wax' didn't become common for use in precious metal jewellery
manufacture in England until the middle of the fifteenth century, although
I'd be delighted to find I was wrong here as well, cuttlefish casting for
an audience isn't an easy task.

Certainly cuttlefish casting was used in Europe in the sixth century, I've
seen Finnish stuff in museums that they said used that technique.

(The Finnish museum service do an incredible range of reproduction early
medieval (450AD to 1100AD) jewellery, most of it sixth and seventh century)

The Vikings didn't use 'lost wax', although they may have used a similar
technique using lead, although I have no idea what they used as an
investment medium.

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea

On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 12:13:31 -0800, in hõ William Black wrote:


"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
. ..
On , in àõ William Black wrote:

Casting in cuttlefish (like your granny's parrot has in its cage) is
probably the most ancient form of silver casting, much older than 'lost
wax'.

Are you really sure about that William?

While modern investments and rubber molding/wax injection technology are
20th century
innovations, lost wax casting itself has been in use for thousands of
years. Large
sculptural castings of larger than life bronze figures were being done by
lost wax
casting in Greek and Roman times, and on a smaller scale, I recall seeing
work in the
Cairo museum that sure appeared to be lost wax, dating, if I recall
correctly, to at
least a couple thousand years BC.

If that's the case then I'm probably wrong.

Most of my knowledge of early jewellery making is 'England' based, mainly
because I've been employed to do Living History displays of silversmithing
and jewellery making and that's what I did my research about.

'Lost wax' didn't become common for use in precious metal jewellery
manufacture in England until the middle of the fifteenth century, although
I'd be delighted to find I was wrong here as well, cuttlefish casting for
an audience isn't an easy task.

Certainly cuttlefish casting was used in Europe in the sixth century, I've
seen Finnish stuff in museums that they said used that technique.

(The Finnish museum service do an incredible range of reproduction early
medieval (450AD to 1100AD) jewellery, most of it sixth and seventh century)

The Vikings didn't use 'lost wax', although they may have used a similar
technique using lead, although I have no idea what they used as an
investment medium.

Well, let me quality my statement about the egyptian stuff by saying only that it looked
like it had been modeled in wax and then cast. I did not have any authoritative info on
those items other than the typical museum tags, which often state little more than some
identifiying description, location, and date. So whether they were lost wax or not, I
cannot be sure. I DO know for a fact that the greek and roman use of lost wax casting
is not only well documented, but was quite sophisticated. I'm much less familiar with
work from further north in europe until the late middle ages or renaissance. Much of
the work I've seen is fabricated, not cast. The few castings I recall seemed simple. I
DO know I've seen open faced (perhaps, not sure) stone molds from medieval europe used
for casting small objects. I don't actually recall just what they were, or from where.
I'll assume, just because it seems so simple and almost universal, that some form of
sand casting was likely also used in early european cultures, since even early bronze
age things like ax heads, and the like, seem cast in some sort of mold, and it seems
likely to me that the simplest possibility would be open faced mold cavities carved in
clay or sand...

Perhaps I should go dig up a copy of one or more of Jack Ogden's fine books on these
subjects, and see what he's got to say on it all...

cheers

Peter

Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:
On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 12:13:31 -0800, in hõ William Black wrote:


"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
...

On , in àõ William Black wrote:


Casting in cuttlefish (like your granny's parrot has in its cage) is
probably the most ancient form of silver casting, much older than 'lost
wax'.

Are you really sure about that William?

While modern investments and rubber molding/wax injection technology are

20th century

innovations, lost wax casting itself has been in use for thousands of

years. Large

sculptural castings of larger than life bronze figures were being done by

lost wax

casting in Greek and Roman times, and on a smaller scale, I recall seeing

work in the

Cairo museum that sure appeared to be lost wax, dating, if I recall

correctly, to at

least a couple thousand years BC.

If that's the case then I'm probably wrong.

Most of my knowledge of early jewellery making is 'England' based, mainly
because I've been employed to do Living History displays of silversmithing
and jewellery making and that's what I did my research about.

'Lost wax' didn't become common for use in precious metal jewellery
manufacture in England until the middle of the fifteenth century, although
I'd be delighted to find I was wrong here as well, cuttlefish casting for
an audience isn't an easy task.

Certainly cuttlefish casting was used in Europe in the sixth century, I've
seen Finnish stuff in museums that they said used that technique.

(The Finnish museum service do an incredible range of reproduction early
medieval (450AD to 1100AD) jewellery, most of it sixth and seventh century)

The Vikings didn't use 'lost wax', although they may have used a similar
technique using lead, although I have no idea what they used as an
investment medium.


Well, let me quality my statement about the egyptian stuff by saying only that it looked
like it had been modeled in wax and then cast. I did not have any authoritative info on
those items other than the typical museum tags, which often state little more than some
identifiying description, location, and date. So whether they were lost wax or not, I
cannot be sure. I DO know for a fact that the greek and roman use of lost wax casting
is not only well documented, but was quite sophisticated. I'm much less familiar with
work from further north in europe until the late middle ages or renaissance. Much of
the work I've seen is fabricated, not cast. The few castings I recall seemed simple. I
DO know I've seen open faced (perhaps, not sure) stone molds from medieval europe used
for casting small objects. I don't actually recall just what they were, or from where.
I'll assume, just because it seems so simple and almost universal, that some form of
sand casting was likely also used in early european cultures, since even early bronze
age things like ax heads, and the like, seem cast in some sort of mold, and it seems
likely to me that the simplest possibility would be open faced mold cavities carved in
clay or sand...

Perhaps I should go dig up a copy of one or more of Jack Ogden's fine books on these
subjects, and see what he's got to say on it all...

cheers

Peter

Actually mold casting in stone molds in Europe goes back to the Bronze
Age. The National Museum of Ireland, among others has a number of molds
used for things like spear points, daggers, etc. cast in bronze. The
molds are made of stone. The ones in the NMI were on display on the
second floor (above the great Irish gold hoards) in the early 1970s.
(If you're ever in Dublin, do *not* miss the National Museum. From
bronze age gold to Georgian silver, it has a fantastic collection.)

If you saw cast stuff from the Middle Ages, it may well have been crude.
One of the major uses for cast pieces in that time was casting
pilgrim's tokens, often out of lead, but sometimes out of silver. These
were the equivalent of the souvenir jewelry you can buy in many parts of
the world today and like those pieces, the stuff tended to be not very
well made.

--RC

On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 23:21:50 -0800, in ?? Rick Cook
wrote:

If you saw cast stuff from the Middle Ages, it may well have been crude.
One of the major uses for cast pieces in that time was casting
pilgrim's tokens, often out of lead, but sometimes out of silver. These
were the equivalent of the souvenir jewelry you can buy in many parts of
the world today and like those pieces, the stuff tended to be not very
well made.

That sounds very much like what i recall seeing. Thanks Rick, for the details. Perhaps
one day I'll get to see that exhibit in Dublin.

Peter

William Black wrote:

"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
...

On , in àõ William Black wrote:


Casting in cuttlefish (like your granny's parrot has in its cage) is
probably the most ancient form of silver casting, much older than 'lost
wax'.

Are you really sure about that William?

While modern investments and rubber molding/wax injection technology are
20th century
innovations, lost wax casting itself has been in use for thousands of
years. Large
sculptural castings of larger than life bronze figures were being done by
lost wax
casting in Greek and Roman times, and on a smaller scale, I recall seeing
work in the
Cairo museum that sure appeared to be lost wax, dating, if I recall
correctly, to at
least a couple thousand years BC.


If that's the case then I'm probably wrong.

Most of my knowledge of early jewellery making is 'England' based, mainly
because I've been employed to do Living History displays of silversmithing
and jewellery making and that's what I did my research about.

William,

Did you watch "What The Ancients Did For Us" the other day - it is a joint
BBC/Open University production? On the programme about India they showed some
objects from around 3000BC which are believed to have been lost wax cast. They
had a local craftsman make a life size wax bust of Adam Hart Davis, main
presenter, in wax from two photographs. The investment was returned to the UK
and the bronze pour was done in a field, I think.

There is not much there, but the URLs a
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/programmes/ancients/
http://www.open2.net/whattheancients/indians.html

Cheers
Andy

"Rick Cook" wrote in message
...

If you saw cast stuff from the Middle Ages, it may well have been crude.
One of the major uses for cast pieces in that time was casting
pilgrim's tokens, often out of lead, but sometimes out of silver. These
were the equivalent of the souvenir jewelry you can buy in many parts of
the world today and like those pieces, the stuff tended to be not very
well made.

The problem with most of the pilgrim's tokens we have today is that many of
them came out of the Thames mud excavations a decade or so ago, Matt
Champion makes (made?) a whole series of copies of them.

Very few of these are silver because silver has intrinsic value, far more
so than today, and any broken ones would have probably been sold for scrap.

It's the same with things like medieval buckles, what we have comes mainly
from middens of various sorts. The Museum of London book 'Dress
Accessories' has literally hundreds of buckles and chapes, but only two of
silver.

Sumptuary laws may have restrained some people from wearing precious metals,
but there's no reason to suppose that they were any more effective in this
area than in any other and so rich commoners probably did have various dress
accessories of gold and silver, but as they had intrinsic value they
haven't survived.

Then you get to the 'Brownsmith' problem.

Pewtersmiths, workers in brass and other none precious metals who work cold
aren't goldsmiths and the blacksmith's guild wouldn't entertain them either.
In England they weren't allowed, for reasons that remain unclear, to form a
'brownsmiths' guild. So any items made of pewter or brass would have had to
have been imported or made by people who were unregulated.

Medieval English pewter and brass is rare, and any made may well have been
of poor quality. The quality of pilgrims badges from Santiago and Rome are
of notably higher quality and larger size than those of Wallsingham or
Canterbury.

In conclusion, what we have today may not represent what was available
because other factors intervene, relating to materials and the intricate
politics of the craft guilds.

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea

Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:
On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 12:13:31 -0800, in hõ William Black wrote:


"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
...

On , in àõ William Black wrote:


Casting in cuttlefish (like your granny's parrot has in its cage) is
probably the most ancient form of silver casting, much older than 'lost
wax'.

Are you really sure about that William?

While modern investments and rubber molding/wax injection technology are

20th century

innovations, lost wax casting itself has been in use for thousands of

years. Large

sculptural castings of larger than life bronze figures were being done by

lost wax

casting in Greek and Roman times, and on a smaller scale, I recall seeing

work in the

Cairo museum that sure appeared to be lost wax, dating, if I recall

correctly, to at

least a couple thousand years BC.

If that's the case then I'm probably wrong.

Most of my knowledge of early jewellery making is 'England' based, mainly
because I've been employed to do Living History displays of silversmithing
and jewellery making and that's what I did my research about.

'Lost wax' didn't become common for use in precious metal jewellery
manufacture in England until the middle of the fifteenth century, although
I'd be delighted to find I was wrong here as well, cuttlefish casting for
an audience isn't an easy task.

Certainly cuttlefish casting was used in Europe in the sixth century, I've
seen Finnish stuff in museums that they said used that technique.

(The Finnish museum service do an incredible range of reproduction early
medieval (450AD to 1100AD) jewellery, most of it sixth and seventh century)

The Vikings didn't use 'lost wax', although they may have used a similar
technique using lead, although I have no idea what they used as an
investment medium.


Well, let me quality my statement about the egyptian stuff by saying only that it looked
like it had been modeled in wax and then cast. I did not have any authoritative info on
those items other than the typical museum tags, which often state little more than some
identifiying description, location, and date. So whether they were lost wax or not, I
cannot be sure. I DO know for a fact that the greek and roman use of lost wax casting
is not only well documented, but was quite sophisticated. I'm much less familiar with
work from further north in europe until the late middle ages or renaissance. Much of
the work I've seen is fabricated, not cast. The few castings I recall seemed simple. I
DO know I've seen open faced (perhaps, not sure) stone molds from medieval europe used
for casting small objects. I don't actually recall just what they were, or from where.
I'll assume, just because it seems so simple and almost universal, that some form of
sand casting was likely also used in early european cultures, since even early bronze
age things like ax heads, and the like, seem cast in some sort of mold, and it seems
likely to me that the simplest possibility would be open faced mold cavities carved in
clay or sand...

Perhaps I should go dig up a copy of one or more of Jack Ogden's fine books on these
subjects, and see what he's got to say on it all...

cheers

Peter

Altho casting isnt my field, I was at Schloss Burg in the 1990's at
their Weinachts markt, where there was a german chap demoing the casting
of peweter into slate stone moulds. these were 2 part about 6in by 8in
sq and 3/4in thick clamped within a wood frame and the incised
marks/ details were very fine. The mating surfaces were dead true and level.
He just used gravity pouring, no centrifuguing and his results were
very fine indeed.
these were of high relief open fretwork plaqes of German middle age
country scenes which one hung in the window. IE silluets. I didnt buy
an example , should have so I could have sent you an image. These
stone/ slate mouds seemed to last for many years, tho im not sure wether
he warmed them first before pouring.

"Andy Webber" wrote in message
...

Did you watch "What The Ancients Did For Us" the other day - it is a joint
BBC/Open University production? On the programme about India they showed
some
objects from around 3000BC which are believed to have been lost wax cast.
They
had a local craftsman make a life size wax bust of Adam Hart Davis, main
presenter, in wax from two photographs. The investment was returned to the
UK
and the bronze pour was done in a field, I think.

Yes I did.

I was very interested in the claim that large scale lost wax casting was a
'lost technique' in the west...

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea