Mirjam

F.James Cripwell wrote:
I know we have been round this mulberry bush before, Tia Mary, but as
I have noted before, it is not that straightforward. The fundamentalists
provide the environment and society in which the fanatics can hide, plot,
and finally carry out their terrorist activities. However, I would note
that at this stage of where we are, there are many fundamentalists in many
religions, but the only fanatics that operate their terrorist attacks on a
world wide basis, are Muslim. Not a popular idea, but one that I feel is
true. ...... Luckily, here in Canada
there was at least one fundamentalist Muslim who was prepared to act, and
turn some of the fanatics over to the law enforcement authorities.

I might be naive about this but I honestly think that the
fundamentalists who harbor fanatic terrorists are simply fanatics in
disguise. A truly religious fundamentalist Muslim would have NO truck
with the fanatic Muslims and the hatred they espouse. OTOH, I should
imagine that most non fanatic Muslims (regardless of their level of
fundamentalism) who come into any sort of contact with the fanatics, no
matter how minor, are scared spitless to do anything about it for fear
of their own lives and the lives of their families.
What needs to be done is for ALL Muslims to take a stand against the
fanatics. Parents and the "church elders" (can't think of the proper
title) need to teach the children and the general Muslim public that the
fanatic rhetoric is NOT what is taught in the Koran. It will take some
VERY brave people to do this because they would likely be targeted by
the fanatics.
This seems like such a common sense approach to people from Western
cultures. For generations we have been taught to fight against
oppression and tyranny. The mind set of the Middle Eastern cultures is
so different from ours that it's near impossible for any of us to truly
understand how the "common" people in those countries really feel.
Betsy, my DSis, was married to an Iranian man who was a Christian and
she lived over there for three years so I have a small bit of
understanding about the differences in the cultures. Even being a
Christian he still thought of my DS as his **property** and he could
beat her if he thought she needed it. He took her passport away from
her and gave it to his father to keep so that Betsy couldn't leave the
country without his permission. Her life there was so different from
what even the poorest of working people in North America has that it is
just not comparable on any level.
It will take a LOT of understanding on the part of everyone involved
before there is ANY sort of resolution to this age old problem -- IF
there is a resolution!! CiaoMeow ^;;^

PAX, Tia Mary ^;;^ (RCTQ Queen of Kitties)
Angels can't show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about
their whiskers!
Visit my Photo albums at http://community.webshots.com/user/tiamary

lucretia borgia ) writes:

Jim is nothing more than an old bigot. If you google back through
his posts you will see he feels there is no room for Muslims in
scarves in his Canada. He was certain Mahar Arar MUST have been
doing something wrong when he was taken off a 'plane in the US and
sent to Syria - even though he had been in Canada since the age of a
year - where he was tortured for two years. The fact that we now all
know he was simply an engineer travelling on work related business
doesn't count. Jim had him tried, found guilty merely because he was
Muslim.

He has no tolerance for anyone who does not operate in the Colonel
Blimp style which he espouses. Try google and see.


I am not sure it is a good idea for me to respond to this post; I
know before I start that I cannot possibly win. What I actually believe
is that Canada, along with many other countries, is under threat from
Muslim fanatics. The threat does not come from outside Canada, but is
"home grown". It comes from Muslim fanatics who may well have been born
in Canada, and who hide amongst Muslim fundamentalists. Until the Muslim
community can convince the Commissioner of the RCMP that they are *not* a
threat, then so far as I am concerned, they *are* a threat. It is indeed
unfortunate that some in the Muslim community are unjustly treated in any
way, but we are all human, and mistakes are made. However, keeping Canada
safe from terrorist attack is too important an issue. It is up to
Canadian Muslims to convince the rest of Canada that there is no terrorist
threat hiding in their communities. How they are to do this I have no
idea, but the more they emphasize their fundamentalist beliefs, the
harder, IMHO, it is going to be for them.

Tia Mary ) writes:
(snip)
This seems like such a common sense approach to people from Western
cultures. For generations we have been taught to fight against
oppression and tyranny. The mind set of the Middle Eastern cultures is
so different from ours that it's near impossible for any of us to truly
understand how the "common" people in those countries really feel.
Betsy, my DSis, was married to an Iranian man who was a Christian and
she lived over there for three years so I have a small bit of
understanding about the differences in the cultures. Even being a
Christian he still thought of my DS as his **property** and he could
beat her if he thought she needed it. He took her passport away from
her and gave it to his father to keep so that Betsy couldn't leave the
country without his permission. Her life there was so different from
what even the poorest of working people in North America has that it is
just not comparable on any level.
It will take a LOT of understanding on the part of everyone involved
before there is ANY sort of resolution to this age old problem -- IF
there is a resolution!! CiaoMeow ^;;^

PAX, Tia Mary ^;;^ (RCTQ Queen of Kitties)

This reminds me of a story from the "other side" so to speak, which
occurred many years ago when Jill was still teaching. A grade 8 student,
from the Greek community, came to her in floods of tears because her
father would not let her go to the graduation dance. Now in those days
"dance" was a misnomer. Very few of the boys could dance. However, it
was a rite of passage, and *everyone* went to the graduation dance.
Jill went to see the father, who told her that in Greece, girls were
not allowed to go to such functions. Jill pointed out, words to the
effect, that we were in Canada, not Greece. If he, the father, did not
let his daughter behave like all the other Canadian girls, he would
alienate her. Quite likely in a few years she would run away from home,
and become embroiled in drugs and prostitution. And if that happened, he
would be to blame.
The girl went to the dance.

ElastiGirl wrote:
No, *I don't think* that coercive discomfort is torture -- that was the
point I was trying to make. I have seen and heard some politicians, some
media, and some whatever-you-want-to-call-thems calling coercive
discomfort torture. To me, torture would be the conditions you
described, causing bodily harm, or forcing someone to watch their
women/children/family being hurt.

Is waterboarding torture? Is keeping someone awake for days torture?
Is denying someone sensory torture? You bet. It's too easy to go from
these so-called benign methods to truly sadistic means. It happens in
every war. Sometimes with a wink, sometimes as policy.

No thank you. As much as I detest the enemy, and though I might shoot
him in the battlefield, I would treat him humanely were he caught. Once
caught, there is no reason for anything else. He is no longer a threat.
The amount of intelligence you can get from a foot soldier is a drop
in the bucket.

I think we're hysterical. Maybe I'm naive, but WWII taught us many
lessons that seem to have been forgotten. And many Generals will tell
you that torture does not work.

Dianne

In article ,
Dianne Lewandowski wrote:

ElastiGirl wrote:
No, *I don't think* that coercive discomfort is torture -- that was the
point I was trying to make. I have seen and heard some politicians, some
media, and some whatever-you-want-to-call-thems calling coercive
discomfort torture. To me, torture would be the conditions you
described, causing bodily harm, or forcing someone to watch their
women/children/family being hurt.

Is waterboarding torture? Is keeping someone awake for days torture?
Is denying someone sensory torture? You bet. It's too easy to go from
these so-called benign methods to truly sadistic means. It happens in
every war. Sometimes with a wink, sometimes as policy.


I agree that it's easy for the "holders" to get desensitized and to
progress from benign methods to sadistic ones. Reason why I don't think
it's good process (yes, pro*c*ess) to have interrogators do this for
long.

I had read/heard that in Afghanistan the most successful interrogations
were performed by those detail-trained about benign methods AND new to
interrogations - that quite a few of these interrogators asked to be
removed from doing interrogations when they began to be desensitized and
were having difficulty conceiving of their subjects as human beings.
These guys were more strict on themselves than the rules were... for
instance, they could only continue to question someone (sleep
deprivation) as long as they themselves stayed awake the same as the
questioned person did. If the questioner fell asleep or dozed off, the
questioning was stopped.

No thank you. As much as I detest the enemy, and though I might shoot
him in the battlefield, I would treat him humanely were he caught. Once
caught, there is no reason for anything else. He is no longer a threat.

Agreed

The amount of intelligence you can get from a foot soldier is a drop
in the bucket.

Agreed ( foot soldier)

What about someone who's in on planning? Either as an active participant
or as a "listener" -- generically, is their knowledge valuable?

I think we're hysterical. Maybe I'm naive, but WWII taught us many
lessons that seem to have been forgotten. And many Generals will tell
you that torture does not work.
Dianne

Maybe I am sounding a bit hysterical, I hope not. Perhaps things are too
nuanced in my mind (shudder) or perhaps I see the evil boogeyman too
clearly.

In regards to the last sentence... if someone has anything useful to
tell us, if they haven't spilled the beans within a few months (I'll
arbitrarily pick 90 days) - anything they might have to give us becomes
useless. Just give them a nice place to sleep, decent food, clean
clothes, clean water, a lightbulb, and plenty of reading materials --
leave the guy alone.

EG

People , with quite an `Active` afternoon in our city [ see news]
,,,,20 wounded ..
can you at least stop throwing unkind words at each other , i thank
those who send me supportive letters and notes, i am sorry that a few
think it is time to be unkind ...
we are ok for this day ,,,
Good night
And maybe for those who really want ` Action` , it is THE time to
visit this neihbourhood !!!!
Tia Mary if you meant or hinted that i was unkind to Karen , than i am
sorry that you feel so , i thin Karen did a very mean thing .
We aren`t playing here with Email fury , we are under REAL life
Rockets with a big ability to harm .
mirjam

Oh Vic -- GET A LIFE and quit trying to "win" whatever it is you
think there is to win! I could probably post ANY sort of opinion that
differs from one you or Caryn has and you'd call me a control freak!
It's getting old dear and is not at all effective. I can not control
what anyone posts but I CAN "fight back" when I think that a mean post
has been directed at a person simply to hurt that person.
As I said before, when a post is personally directed at someone
specifically for the sake of belittling that person or attacking them
personally then I WILL respond. It's one thing to disagree with someone
else's opinion and totally acceptable. But attacking another individual
on a personal level is NOT acceptable and IS being a bully and mean,
nasty and cruel to boot!
So go out into your garden, find a lovely spot to sit, assume the
proper position and say your mantra. Calm yourself and let go of some
of that hateful bitterness that seems to be consuming you!

PAX, Tia Mary ^;;^ (RCTQ Queen of Kitties)
Angels can't show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about
their whiskers!
Visit my Photo albums at http://community.webshots.com/user/tiamary

"F.James Cripwell" wrote in message
...
lucretia borgia ) writes:

Jim is nothing more than an old bigot. If you google back through
his posts you will see he feels there is no room for Muslims in
scarves in his Canada. He was certain Mahar Arar MUST have been
doing something wrong when he was taken off a 'plane in the US and
sent to Syria - even though he had been in Canada since the age of a
year - where he was tortured for two years. The fact that we now all
know he was simply an engineer travelling on work related business
doesn't count. Jim had him tried, found guilty merely because he was
Muslim.

He has no tolerance for anyone who does not operate in the Colonel
Blimp style which he espouses. Try google and see.


I am not sure it is a good idea for me to respond to this post; I
know before I start that I cannot possibly win. What I actually believe
is that Canada, along with many other countries, is under threat from
Muslim fanatics. The threat does not come from outside Canada, but is
"home grown". It comes from Muslim fanatics who may well have been born
in Canada, and who hide amongst Muslim fundamentalists. Until the Muslim
community can convince the Commissioner of the RCMP that they are *not* a
threat, then so far as I am concerned, they *are* a threat. It is indeed
unfortunate that some in the Muslim community are unjustly treated in any
way, but we are all human, and mistakes are made. However, keeping Canada
safe from terrorist attack is too important an issue. It is up to
Canadian Muslims to convince the rest of Canada that there is no terrorist
threat hiding in their communities. How they are to do this I have no
idea, but the more they emphasize their fundamentalist beliefs, the
harder, IMHO, it is going to be for them.

It`s exactly the same problem here in the UK, Jim. At least some of the
recent London bombers were "home grown", and with the recent government
admission that there are MANY more illegal immigrants than was previously
thought, Heaven alone knows what may happen in the future. I know that the
Metropolitan Police Chief thinks it likely that we shall have more terrorist
activity sooner rather than later.

As so many seem to be cheering the draconian Israeli reaction to the
terrorists on their doorstep, resulting in the death of many innocents in
Lebanon, how on earth could anyone seriously object to us deporting these
illegal immigrants immediately? No questions, no special circumstances. Just
get the hell back to where they came from. If they don`t like the regime in
their own country then work on changing it. Don`t bring your problems over
here. Conform to our laws or get stuffed.

Pat P

"Mirjam Bruck-Cohen" wrote in message
...
People , with quite an `Active` afternoon in our city [ see news]
,,,,20 wounded ..
can you at least stop throwing unkind words at each other , i thank
those who send me supportive letters and notes, i am sorry that a few
think it is time to be unkind ...
we are ok for this day ,,,
Good night
And maybe for those who really want ` Action` , it is THE time to
visit this neihbourhood !!!!
Tia Mary if you meant or hinted that i was unkind to Karen , than i am
sorry that you feel so , i thin Karen did a very mean thing .
We aren`t playing here with Email fury , we are under REAL life
Rockets with a big ability to harm .
mirjam

What you are going through really makes email clashes pale into total
insignificance, Mirjam. Nice to hear from you and to know you are safe -
please stay that way. Thank you for keeping us informed about what`s REALLY
happening in Haifa.

Pat P

Mirjam Bruck-Cohen wrote:
... Tia Mary if you meant or hinted that i was unkind to Karen , than i am
sorry that you feel so , i thin Karen did a very mean thing .
We aren`t playing here with Email fury , we are under REAL life
Rockets with a big ability to harm .
mirjam

Oh Dear -- Mirjam, I was NOT referring to anything you have posted.
At this point in time, I would not argue with you about anything! I
think you are under enough stress already without having me or anyone
else argue with you. After all of this horror has passed, I will likely
disagree with you again but not now. God Bless and keep safe. CiaoMeow
^;;^

PAX, Tia Mary ^;;^ (RCTQ Queen of Kitties)
Angels can't show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about
their whiskers!
Visit my Photo albums at http://community.webshots.com/user/tiamary

Pat P wrote:
..... illegal immigrants immediately? No questions, no special
circumstances. Just
get the hell back to where they came from. If they don`t like the regime in
their own country then work on changing it. Don`t bring your problems over
here. Conform to our laws or get stuffed.

Pat P


Amen to that. I am still appalled that Western countries allow
illegal aliens so much leeway. I still wonder WHY people who come here
from countries with repressive rulers try to change this country to be
more like what they left?!?!? CiaoMeow ^;;^

PAX, Tia Mary ^;;^ (RCTQ Queen of Kitties)
Angels can't show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about
their whiskers!
Visit my Photo albums at http://community.webshots.com/user/tiamary