Pipe tamper

I am looking for someone to make me a sterling pipe tamper. If you are
intrestet please comtack me via email.
Robert

--
"God not only plays dice. He also sometimes throws the dice where they
cannot be seen."
Stephen Hawking

Robertfl wrote:
I am looking for someone to make me a sterling pipe tamper. If you are
intrestet please comtack me via email.
Robert


Are you sure you want to have one in sterling silver. Silver just so happens to
be the best conductor of heat on the planet.

Unless you "tamper" you burning pipe real quickly, you are going the get your
fingers a bit warm. But maybe that is not a real concern, because the process
does not take long enough for the tamper to get hot.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

"Abrasha" wrote in message
...
Robertfl wrote:
I am looking for someone to make me a sterling pipe tamper. If you are
intrestet please comtack me via email.
Robert


Are you sure you want to have one in sterling silver. Silver just so
happens to
be the best conductor of heat on the planet.


Actually, Gold happens to be a slightly better conductor of both electricity
and heat than Silver but economic considerations limit it's applicabilityto
really high-end systems. For technical explanation, start at
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../thercond.html

Norm

On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 08:06:19 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Norm Dresner"
wrote:

"Abrasha" wrote in message
. ..
Robertfl wrote:
I am looking for someone to make me a sterling pipe tamper. If you are
intrestet please comtack me via email.
Robert


Are you sure you want to have one in sterling silver. Silver just so
happens to
be the best conductor of heat on the planet.


Actually, Gold happens to be a slightly better conductor of both electricity
and heat than Silver but economic considerations limit it's applicability to
really high-end systems. For technical explanation, start at
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../thercond.html

Norm

Norm,

Telling an experienced gold and silversmith he or she is wrong about the heat
conductivity of a precious metal is something to be done with caution andfact
checking (grin)

We're, after all, the ones who experience it's effects directly, in burned
fingers when hand holding a silver wire for annealing or melting an end, but can
get away with it in gold, or when soldering, where silver pretty much insists
on being heated overall, or you'll never get the joint hot enough for solder to
flow, while with gold, well, it's not as critical.

And your own data link backs up this experience. The page you link to itself
has a chart link at the bottom, at
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../thrcn.html#c1 which shows
silver at the top, and doesn't show gold at all. (OK, not so useful, butbear
with me). It shows silver's thermal conductivity in W/m K at 406.0. At the
bottom of that chart, there's another link,
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...thrcn2.html#c1 to another
chart, this one in periodic table format. It also shows silver's thermal
conductivity, this time at 300K, in W/cm K, at 4.29. right below it is the
thermal conductivity listed for gold, at 3.17.

That places gold's thermal conductivity below both silver, and copper (4.01.)
Again, this is data that any experienced jeweler will not know in terms of
measurements and data, but will understand fully, just by experience. Silver
is a significantly better conductor of heat than is copper, and a much better
one than is gold. Mind you, it's still a very good thermal conductor at third
in line, with aluminum a somewhat distant fourth place.

The same ordering exists with electrical conductivity, as listed he (again
found through links in the page you directed us to:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...elecon.html#c1
Silver is the best conductor, copper is second, gold is third, and aluminum is
fourth.

Where the orders are mixed up, of course, is in chemical reactivity amongthese
metals. Gold is much less reactive than silver or copper. This is the reason
why it is used for electrical contact coatings and fine wires in tiny circuits.
Gold's greater ductility also means these exceedingly tiny wires, as usedin
integrated circuit internal connections, will be stronger, less easily broken
during assembly or by vibration in use. Silver and copper, though better
conductors, are prone to oxidation and formation of sulphides, which we jewelers
know as tarnish. These surface films then are insulators or at least, damaging
to the conductivity of a connection. The freedom from oxidation is the big
reason why silver is not used more, where we now use gold, in electrical
contacts (which often are only gold over a more conductive copper conductor) And
you will find, when you've got devices, like certain switches, that must
withstand high current flows or arcing (when mercury won't work, since the
liquid metal, though not a great conductor, is self repairing from arc
damage...) , that sometimes the manufacturers will still use silver as the
conductor.

cheers (and thanks for the good data links. Good info.

Peter Rowe

"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
...
On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 08:06:19 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Norm Dresner"
wrote:

On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 08:06:19 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Norm Dresner"
wrote:

"Abrasha" wrote in message
m...
Robertfl wrote:
I am looking for someone to make me a sterling pipe tamper. If youare
intrestet please comtack me via email.
Robert


Are you sure you want to have one in sterling silver. Silver just so
happens to
be the best conductor of heat on the planet.


Actually, Gold happens to be a slightly better conductor of both electricity
and heat than Silver but economic considerations limit it's applicability to
really high-end systems. For technical explanation, start at
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../thercond.html

Norm

Norm,

Telling an experienced gold and silversmith he or she is wrong about the heat
conductivity of a precious metal is something to be done with caution and fact
checking (grin)

We're, after all, the ones who experience it's effects directly, in burned
fingers when hand holding a silver wire for annealing or melting an end, but can
get away with it in gold, or when soldering, where silver pretty much insists
on being heated overall, or you'll never get the joint hot enough for solder to
flow, while with gold, well, it's not as critical.

And your own data link backs up this experience. The page you link toitself
has a chart link at the bottom, at
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../thrcn.html#c1 which shows
silver at the top, and doesn't show gold at all. (OK, not so useful, but bear
with me). It shows silver's thermal conductivity in W/m K at 406.0. At the
bottom of that chart, there's another link,
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...thrcn2.html#c1 to another
chart, this one in periodic table format. It also shows silver's thermal
conductivity, this time at 300K, in W/cm K, at 4.29. right below it isthe
thermal conductivity listed for gold, at 3.17.

That places gold's thermal conductivity below both silver, and copper (4.01.)
Again, this is data that any experienced jeweler will not know in termsof
measurements and data, but will understand fully, just by experience. Silver
is a significantly better conductor of heat than is copper, and a much better
one than is gold. Mind you, it's still a very good thermal conductor at third
in line, with aluminum a somewhat distant fourth place.

The same ordering exists with electrical conductivity, as listed he (again
found through links in the page you directed us to:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...elecon.html#c1
Silver is the best conductor, copper is second, gold is third, and aluminum is
fourth.

Where the orders are mixed up, of course, is in chemical reactivity among these
metals. Gold is much less reactive than silver or copper. This is thereason
why it is used for electrical contact coatings and fine wires in tiny circuits.
Gold's greater ductility also means these exceedingly tiny wires, as used in
integrated circuit internal connections, will be stronger, less easily broken
during assembly or by vibration in use. Silver and copper, though better
conductors, are prone to oxidation and formation of sulphides, which wejewelers
know as tarnish. These surface films then are insulators or at least, damaging
to the conductivity of a connection. The freedom from oxidation is thebig
reason why silver is not used more, where we now use gold, in electrical
contacts (which often are only gold over a more conductive copper conductor) And
you will find, when you've got devices, like certain switches, that must
withstand high current flows or arcing (when mercury won't work, sincethe
liquid metal, though not a great conductor, is self repairing from arc
damage...) , that sometimes the manufacturers will still use silver as the
conductor.

cheers (and thanks for the good data links. Good info.

Peter Rowe



Peter

Telling a (mathematical) physicist that he's made a mistake in the
properties of solids is something to be done with caution.

From the Handbook of Physics and Chemistry, 83rd Edition, on pages 12-45ff
there's a table of the Electrical Resistivity of Pure Metals.

At low temperatures, Silver is indeed more conductive than Gold. But the
conductivities get closer together as the temperature increases. Since
we're interested in the high-temperature region for jewelry manufacture, I
suspect that the differences aren't as great as you suggest.

Also, interestingly, on p12-221, there's a table of the thermal conductivity
of Metals vs. temperature. Both are decreasing as a function of increasing
temperature. Up to 1200K (~700C), Silver is still more conductive than
Gold, but the slope of the Silver curve is steeper than that of Gold so they
may cross at some higher temperature.

So yes, you're right but I'm not totally wrong either, although in the
regime of familiar temperatures Silver and Copper do beat Gold.
Norm

Norm Dresner wrote:

"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
...
On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 08:06:19 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Norm Dresner"
wrote:


On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 08:06:19 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Norm Dresner"
wrote:


"Abrasha" wrote in message
om...
Robertfl wrote:

I am looking for someone to make me a sterling pipe tamper. If youare
intrestet please comtack me via email.
Robert


Are you sure you want to have one in sterling silver. Silver just so
happens to
be the best conductor of heat on the planet.


Actually, Gold happens to be a slightly better conductor of both electricity
and heat than Silver but economic considerations limit it's applicability to
really high-end systems. For technical explanation, start at
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../thercond.html

Norm

Norm,

Telling an experienced gold and silversmith he or she is wrong about the heat
conductivity of a precious metal is something to be done with caution and fact
checking (grin)

We're, after all, the ones who experience it's effects directly, in burned
fingers when hand holding a silver wire for annealing or melting an end, but can
get away with it in gold, or when soldering, where silver pretty muchinsists
on being heated overall, or you'll never get the joint hot enough for solder to
flow, while with gold, well, it's not as critical.

And your own data link backs up this experience. The page you link to itself
has a chart link at the bottom, at
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../thrcn.html#c1 whichshows
silver at the top, and doesn't show gold at all. (OK, not so useful, but bear
with me). It shows silver's thermal conductivity in W/m K at 406.0. At the
bottom of that chart, there's another link,
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...thrcn2.html#c1 to another
chart, this one in periodic table format. It also shows silver's thermal
conductivity, this time at 300K, in W/cm K, at 4.29. right below it is the
thermal conductivity listed for gold, at 3.17.

That places gold's thermal conductivity below both silver, and copper (4.01.)
Again, this is data that any experienced jeweler will not know in terms of
measurements and data, but will understand fully, just by experience. Silver
is a significantly better conductor of heat than is copper, and a muchbetter
one than is gold. Mind you, it's still a very good thermal conductor at third
in line, with aluminum a somewhat distant fourth place.

The same ordering exists with electrical conductivity, as listed hereagain
found through links in the page you directed us to:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...elecon.html#c1
Silver is the best conductor, copper is second, gold is third, and aluminum is
fourth.

Where the orders are mixed up, of course, is in chemical reactivity among these
metals. Gold is much less reactive than silver or copper. This is the reason
why it is used for electrical contact coatings and fine wires in tiny circuits.
Gold's greater ductility also means these exceedingly tiny wires, as used in
integrated circuit internal connections, will be stronger, less easilybroken
during assembly or by vibration in use. Silver and copper, though better
conductors, are prone to oxidation and formation of sulphides, which we jewelers
know as tarnish. These surface films then are insulators or at least,damaging
to the conductivity of a connection. The freedom from oxidation is the big
reason why silver is not used more, where we now use gold, in electrical
contacts (which often are only gold over a more conductive copper conductor) And
you will find, when you've got devices, like certain switches, that must
withstand high current flows or arcing (when mercury won't work, since the
liquid metal, though not a great conductor, is self repairing from arc
damage...) , that sometimes the manufacturers will still use silver asthe
conductor.

cheers (and thanks for the good data links. Good info.

Peter Rowe




Peter

Telling a (mathematical) physicist that he's made a mistake in the
properties of solids is something to be done with caution.

From the Handbook of Physics and Chemistry, 83rd Edition, on pages 12-45ff
there's a table of the Electrical Resistivity of Pure Metals.

At low temperatures, Silver is indeed more conductive than Gold. But the
conductivities get closer together as the temperature increases. Since
we're interested in the high-temperature region for jewelry manufacture, I
suspect that the differences aren't as great as you suggest.

Also, interestingly, on p12-221, there's a table of the thermal conductivity
of Metals vs. temperature. Both are decreasing as a function of increasing
temperature. Up to 1200K (~700C), Silver is still more conductive than
Gold, but the slope of the Silver curve is steeper than that of Gold sothey
may cross at some higher temperature.

So yes, you're right but I'm not totally wrong either, although in the
regime of familiar temperatures Silver and Copper do beat Gold.
Norm



How do the heat conductivity figures of sterling and - say 14K yellow
gold alloys compare at 'brazing' (soldering temps) or, for the purposes
of the OP , at tobacco ignition temps.

Also, a pipe tamper could be made in such a way that it folded and the
pin/tube used in the hinge could be stainless or titanium or other low
thermal conductivity material. Or, some nice bolsters or a handle could
be attached to help insulate the fingers from the brief heat that might
be transmitted. Easily do-able I'd suspect.

Carl


--
to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)

Carl 1 Lucky Texan wrote:
...
Also, a pipe tamper could be made in such a way that it folded and the
pin/tube used in the hinge could be stainless or titanium or other low
thermal conductivity material. Or, some nice bolsters or a handle could
be attached to help insulate the fingers from the brief heat that might
be transmitted. Easily do-able I'd suspect.

Carl

Or just give it enough mass to keep the pipe from being able to heat it
up. Especially in the time it takes to tamp a pipe.

- (the other) Carl

Norm Dresner wrote:
"Abrasha" wrote in message
...
Robertfl wrote:

I am looking for someone to make me a sterling pipe tamper. If you are
intrestet please comtack me via email.
Robert



Are you sure you want to have one in sterling silver. Silver just so
happens to
be the best conductor of heat on the planet.


Actually, Gold happens to be a slightly better conductor of both electricity
and heat than Silver

No! With all due respect, you do not know what you are talking about. Silver
is the best conductor of both electricity and heat. Copper is a close second.
Gold is not even close. It's a distant third

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conductivity (see "Some typical electrical
conductivities") "Silver - Highest electrical conductivity of any metal"

http://hypertextbook.com/physics/ele...ty/resistance/ (see middle of the
page "Resistivity of Selected Materials")

but economic considerations limit it's applicability to
really high-end systems. For technical explanation, start at
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../thercond.html

Interesting. You don't seem to understand what the text on that page is about.
And you give us a link to a page with many links, where you obviously have not
followed some of the links yourself. Besides, that page itself says nothing of
electrical conductivity or thermal conductivity, but rather talks about the "The
Wiedemann-Franz Law"

But for your convenience, I have followed the links for you:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../thrcn.html#c1
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...elecon.html#c1
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../rstiv.html#c1

and then there is also

http://www.standnes.no/chemix/period...vity-table.htm
http://environmentalchemistry.com/yo...c/thermal.html


Conductivity:

Silver (http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/periodic/Ag.html)
Electrical: 0.63 106/cm ohm (that's 10 to the 6th power, not 106)
Thermal: 4.29 W/cmK

Copper: http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/periodic/Cu.html
Electrical: 0.596 106/cm ohm
Thermal: 4.01 W/cmK

Gold: http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/periodic/Au.html
Electrical: 0.452 106/cm ohm
Thermal: 3.17 W/cmK

You can put your foot in your mouth now.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Carl 1 Lucky Texan wrote:
Norm Dresner wrote:


Telling a (mathematical) physicist that he's made a mistake in the
properties of solids is something to be done with caution.

Oh please, blow it out your ear!


From the Handbook of Physics and Chemistry, 83rd Edition, on pages 12-45ff
there's a table of the Electrical Resistivity of Pure Metals.

Blah, blah, blah,



At low temperatures, Silver is indeed more conductive than Gold. But the
conductivities get closer together as the temperature increases.

You want tables, I'll give you tables:

http://www.efunda.com/materials/elem...?Element_ID=Ag
http://www.efunda.com/materials/elem...?Element_ID=Cu
http://www.efunda.com/materials/elem...?Element_ID=Au

For silver, copper and gold respectively. At every temperature (from 3degrees
K to 1200 degree K) Silver is 1, copper is 2 and gold is 3.

Since
we're interested in the high-temperature region for jewelry manufacture, I
suspect that the differences aren't as great as you suggest.

Oh yes they are.


Also, interestingly, on p12-221, there's a table of the thermal conductivity
of Metals vs. temperature. Both are decreasing as a function of increasing
temperature. Up to 1200K (~700C),

Actually 1200 degrees K is about 926.85 °C, ... some mathematician you are.

Oh BTW, this is a temperature well below temperatures at which both silver and
gold alloys are soldered. 1200 degrees K (1700.33 degrees F) is the temperature
at which platinum is welded. So not of concern here.

Silver is still more conductive than
Gold, but the slope of the Silver curve is steeper than that of Gold sothey
may cross at some higher temperature.

"may" being the operative word here. And not at all of concern in the process
of jewelry making. Or, IOW, show me.


So yes, you're right but I'm not totally wrong either, although in the
regime of familiar temperatures Silver and Copper do beat Gold.

Face it pal, you are wrong.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

"Abrasha" wrote in message
...
Carl 1 Lucky Texan wrote:
Norm Dresner wrote:



Also, interestingly, on p12-221, there's a table of the thermal
conductivity
of Metals vs. temperature. Both are decreasing as a function of
increasing
temperature. Up to 1200K (~700C),

Actually 1200 degrees K is about 926.85 °C, ... some mathematician you are.


A typo. 0C is 273.something K.

I hope you never make one in public,

Norm