|
| If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|||||||
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
May 25th 04, 04:11 AM
|
|||
|
|||
My Antwerp diamond experience and advice on price please!
Dear Guys,
I wondered if any knowledgeable person could give me any indication on what they felt the likely "fair" retail value of the diamond below would be? Although the answer is fairly academic now because I've bought it (for 4000 euros including the 18ct white gold ring and setting, which is approximately US$4800) I do have a feeling that I paid significantly over the odds altough at the end of the day I'm happy because my fiance chose it and absolutely loves it, I think the ring looks great too. Nevertheless, I would like to know the extent to which I overpaid – just for the learning experience. The specs of the diamond a IGI certificate Shape & Cut: Round brilliant Weight: 1.00 carat Measurements: 5.92 – 6.04 x 4.11mm Clarity: VS1 colour: I Fluorescence: None Polish & Symmetry: Good Proportions: Fair Table diameter: 59% Crown height 16% Pavilion depth: 44% Girdle thickness: SL. THICK TO THICK (FAC.) Culet size: chipped My experience: We (my fiance and I) tried to read up about diamonds as much as we had time to beforehand and had decided to look for a ring within a maximum budget of US$5368 and meeting the following specs: Clarity at least SI1 and colour at least I. We wanted to go to Antwerp (we live in Oxford, UK) to enjoy the process and the experience of a European trip and to see the ring set and hopefully get better deal than available in the UK. My close friend had been to a particular jeweller in Antwerp for his engagement ring and recommended them highly as he was very happy with the ring he bought and fet he received good service and a good deal. So we booked a trip on the Eurostar train and spent a nice weekend in Antwerp (Belgium) together. We visited the diamond district – I must admit that it was really quite different from how I had envisaged it. I had pictured it as being an upmarket area rather like Mayfair in London or Beverly hills in LA full of plush diamond shops. In reality it is a rather non-descript, dull, almost seedy area full of small diamond shops with smooth-talking Jewish jewellers who act and sound more like used car sales men than diamond merchants. Anyway, we shopped around 3 or 4 shops before finally settling in the shop my friend had recommended. In all of the shops I visited I definitely felt the salemen were vey shady and could not trust anything they said. I finally bought the diamond described below because my girlfriend loved it and the salesguy was smooth. He took us across the road to an upstairs workshop (via a vey dodgy looking building and a litter-strewn lift) to watch the ring get resized and set. Thanks for any advice you guys can provide. 
|
| Ads |
|
#2
May 25th 04, 07:14 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
simon3000 wrote:
= So we booked a trip on the Eurostar train and spent a nice weekend in Antwerp (Belgium) together. We visited the diamond district =96 I must admit that it was really quite different from how I had envisaged it. I had pictured it as being an upmarket area rather like Mayfair in London or Beverly hills in LA full of plush diamond shops. In reality it is a rather non-descript, dull, almost seedy area full of small diamond shops with smooth-talking Jewish jewellers who act and sound more like used car sales men than diamond merchants. = Be carefull with comments like that! Might get your knee caps damaged in some quarters. BTW, I know the area well. It is around the Pelikaanstraat and Hoveniersraat, where the world famous "Beurs voor Diamanthandel", "Antwerpsche Diamantkring"and "Diamantclub van Antwerpen" are. My uncle used to have a small shop on the Pelikaanstraat across the street from the railway station. He would not have taken your antisemitic comment litely, and if you woyuld have had the balls to say it in his store thrown you out the door, ... if you were lucky. Anyway, we shopped around 3 or 4 shops before finally settling in the shop my friend had recommended. In all of the shops I visited I definitely felt the salemen were vey shady and could not trust anything they said. = So why did you not take your money and leave? I finally bought the diamond described below because my girlfriend loved it and the salesguy was smooth. = Why don't you visit my shop, if you are ever in San Francisco. I am most definitely not smooth. I am Jewish however. He took us across the road to an upstairs workshop (via a vey dodgy looking building and a litter-strewn lift) to watch the ring get resized and set. = Thanks for any advice you guys can provide. My advice to you, is to lay off your antisemitic prejudices and learn to trust your instincts. If you don't trust what is going on, ... leave. Next time, buy from an honest Christian salesman. Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com
|
|
#3
May 25th 04, 10:00 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Abrasha wrote:
.... So we booked a trip on the Eurostar train and spent a nice weekend in Antwerp (Belgium) together. We visited the diamond district =3D96 I mus= t admit that it was really quite different from how I had envisaged it. I had pictured it as being an upmarket area rather like Mayfair in London or Beverly hills in LA full of plush diamond shops. In reality it is a rather non-descript, dull, almost seedy area full of small diamond shops with smooth-talking Jewish jewellers who act and sound more like used car sales men than diamond merchants. =3D ..... BTW, I know the area well. It is around the Pelikaanstraat and Hovenie= rsraat, where the world famous "Beurs voor Diamanthandel", "Antwerpsche Diamantkring"and "Diamantclub van Antwerpen" are. =20 Hi Abrasha, I know this region also very well. For a tourist which is not prepared=20 it must seem strange. Most of the people expect rather an aluminium and=20 glass tower than this. I think it=B4s something traditional (inspite it=B4s working) and in=20 touristic value it=B4s comparable with bavarian beer gardens, arabic=20 medinas or bangkok swimming market. Best wishes, Heinrich Butschal --=20 www.juwelen.online-boerse.org www.meister-atelier.de www.schmuckfabrik.de www.medico.butschal.de
|
|
#5
May 26th 04, 02:12 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Hi Abrash,
My comments were not meant to be antisemitic in any way whatsoever - I was only using the word Jewish as a description of the jewellers because thats what they all were - the fact that they seemed like car sales men was nothing to do wth being jewish but rather a function of the area and local culture amongst jewellersin that region i imagine simon Abrasha wrote in message . .. simon3000 wrote: = So we booked a trip on the Eurostar train and spent a nice weekend in Antwerp (Belgium) together. We visited the diamond district =96 I must admit that it was really quite different from how I had envisaged it. I had pictured it as being an upmarket area rather like Mayfair in London or Beverly hills in LA full of plush diamond shops. In reality it is a rather non-descript, dull, almost seedy area full of small diamond shops with smooth-talking Jewish jewellers who act and sound more like used car sales men than diamond merchants. = Be carefull with comments like that! Might get your knee caps damaged in some quarters. BTW, I know the area well. It is around the Pelikaanstraat and Hoveniersraat, where the world famous "Beurs voor Diamanthandel", "Antwerpsche Diamantkring"and "Diamantclub van Antwerpen" are. My uncle used to have a small shop on the Pelikaanstraat across the street from the railway station. He would not have taken your antisemitic comment litely, and if you woyuld have had the balls to say it in his store thrown you out the door, ... if you were lucky. Anyway, we shopped around 3 or 4 shops before finally settling in the shop my friend had recommended. In all of the shops I visited I definitely felt the salemen were vey shady and could not trust anything they said. = So why did you not take your money and leave? I finally bought the diamond described below because my girlfriend loved it and the salesguy was smooth. = Why don't you visit my shop, if you are ever in San Francisco. I am most definitely not smooth. I am Jewish however. He took us across the road to an upstairs workshop (via a vey dodgy looking building and a litter-strewn lift) to watch the ring get resized and set. = Thanks for any advice you guys can provide. My advice to you, is to lay off your antisemitic prejudices and learn to trust your instincts. If you don't trust what is going on, ... leave. Next time, buy from an honest Christian salesman. Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com
|
|
#6
May 26th 04, 02:12 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
BTW, I know the area well. It is around the Pelikaanstraat and
Hoveniersraat, where the world famous "Beurs voor Diamanthandel", "Antwerpsche Diamantkring"and "Diamantclub van Antwerpen" are. My uncle used to have a small shop on the Pelikaanstraat across the street from the railway station. He would not have taken your antisemitic comment litely, and if you woyuld have had the balls to say it in his store thrown you out the door, ... if you were lucky. I heard nothing anti-Semitic in those comments. Was he wrong about the jewelers in the area being mainly Jewish, or did you take offense at his describing them as being "smooth-talking" like "used car salesmen"? The comments sounded naive to me at worst. My impression was that he expected the mall with their typical unknowledgable counter help, and got backstreet stores with jewelry salesmen.
|
|
#7
May 26th 04, 06:54 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Isn't their religion irrelevant? If they were Protestants or Catholics,
would it have been worth mentioning? Georgia "NE333RO" wrote in message ... I heard nothing anti-Semitic in those comments. Was he wrong about the jewelers in the area being mainly Jewish, or did you take offense at his describing them as being "smooth-talking" like "used car salesmen"? The comments sounded naive to me at worst. My impression was that he expected the mall with their typical unknowledgable counter help, and got backstreet stores with jewelry salesmen.
|
|
#8
May 27th 04, 03:31 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
"simon3000" wrote in message
... Dear Guys, I wondered if any knowledgeable person could give me any indication on what they felt the likely "fair" retail value of the diamond below would be? {snip} The specs of the diamond a IGI certificate Shape & Cut: Round brilliant Weight: 1.00 carat Measurements: 5.92 - 6.04 x 4.11mm Clarity: VS1 colour: I Fluorescence: None Polish & Symmetry: Good Proportions: Fair Table diameter: 59% Crown height 16% Pavilion depth: 44% Girdle thickness: SL. THICK TO THICK (FAC.) Culet size: chipped {snip} Thanks for any advice you guys can provide. Am no expert whatsoever, so I can't tell you if you've paid too much, but I can tell you this. I've learned a lot about diamonds, gems, gold, silver... reading online articles or asking questions here, so I think that a bit of net browsing for some useful articles, can't hurt, especially prior spending thousands of euros/dollars. Reading the specs you have provided even I as a layman found some things that could be better, but am not sure if they're supposed to be better in that price range. 1. The stone is too deep. Depth (by my knowledge) shouldn't go beyond 64% of round stones' diameter, and in your case it's 68,04 - 69,42%. This can darken the stone or make it somewhat dull and minimize it's optical characteristics. 2. If I'm not mistaken, flourescence isn't a bad thing when it comes to diamonds, since it can sometimes help determining the stones authenticity. 3. Proportions are only fair, and they can seriously affect the stones brilliance and "fire". 4. Table diameter should be between 52 and 58%. 5. Girdle thickness should be thin to sllightly thick. As I said, these are the possible flaws of a stone, but don't know if you could find one without them for a same price. Hope this helps. Marijan from Croatia
|
|
#9
May 27th 04, 03:31 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
|
#10
May 27th 04, 04:56 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
On Wed, 26 May 2004 19:31:08 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "m4816k"
wrote: Weight: 1.00 carat Measurements: 5.92 - 6.04 x 4.11mm Clarity: VS1 colour: I Fluorescence: None Polish & Symmetry: Good Proportions: Fair Table diameter: 59% Crown height 16% Pavilion depth: 44% Girdle thickness: SL. THICK TO THICK (FAC.) Culet size: chipped {snip} Thanks for any advice you guys can provide. 1. The stone is too deep. Depth (by my knowledge) shouldn't go beyond 64% of round stones' diameter, and in your case it's 68,04 - 69,42%. This can darken the stone or make it somewhat dull and minimize it's optical characteristics. The measurements given are a little odd. It's possible there was a measurment error in the depth, or in the listed crown and pavilion height/depth figures listed. If not, and they numbers you give are accurate, then the crown height and pavilion depth listed are both decent, though the pavilion is a little deep, and the crown a bit high for the given table diameter. But not extremely so. However, those add up to only 60 percent. That means this stone has an 8-9 percent girdle, which is quite a bit thicker than desired. However, the effect of that is not on the brilliance. Rather it means you got a one carat stone that has the diameter of one a bit lighter. A well cut one carat diamond should have been about 6.4 mm in diameter, while yours is a little smaller, with the difference in weight being in that thick girdle. On the other hand, at least it's pretty certain you're not likely to ever accidentally chip that girdle from it's being too thin, and since it's facetted, it's not likely to be unattractive. Some setting styles will be a little more difficult for the setter to deal with that girdle, or might make the stone look noticably thick or lumpy to some people, but on the whole, I'd guess that this is a reasonably attractively cut stone, though not an ideal cut one. No worse, certainly, than the bulk of commercially cut diamonds, and quite a bit better than some in terms of the "face up" appearance. Now, you DID pay for that one carat weight, and could have gotton that same face up size with a diamond weighing more like. .90 ct. But the price you paid is not too bad or out of line for a retail sale in a mounting. The pavilion depth, at 44 percent, is slightly deep. This may be the single most important measurement for overall brilliance, and at 44 percent, you'll find the reflection of the table, a dark zone in the center of the stone, to be slightly larger than ideal, but not so much so as to be unattractive or especially noticable. The crown height would be ideal if the table were smaller, but at a 59 percent table, this means the crown angles are a little high. To my view, that's far preferable to one with the more common flaw, crown angles that are too shallow. the slightly high crown angles will give you very nice fire (the spectral flashes of colored light), at the expense of a little bit of brilliance (overall reflection), and the higher crown angles may look, to some people, a little bit top heavy. But personally, I don't mind it so much. It also makes the stone less liable to damage in wear. As with the pavillion, it it's the ideal, but i'd guess it's quite attractive anyway. 2. If I'm not mistaken, flourescence isn't a bad thing when it comes to diamonds, since it can sometimes help determining the stones authenticity. Many diamonds are not fluorescent, and a fair number of others are. Usually, it has little effect on the beauty of the stone. If it's extremely strong, it can make a stone look a little greasy in sunlight. And it can be very interesting in a disco. Mostly, it's just a feature of interest to the gemologist, who can use it to help verify it's identity. In most cases, fluorescence if present has no practical effect for the user. And if it's not there, that also has little effect, although the marketplace will sometimes place a higher value on a stone without fluorescence, more for the historical reason that during the early 80s especially, when diamonds were widely touted as investment vehicles, they were bought and sold more by the data on a cert than by actually looking at the stones, and the bankers and traders who managed thusly to jack up the prices of fine diamonds, bought and sold the things according the certs without, often, actually really understanding what the importance of the various data were. So it came to be that anything listed on the cert was assumed to be a negative, be it a lower clarity grade, comment in the comment field, or fluorescence. We're stuck now with that heritage in the market, even though for most stones, fluorescence is immaterial. 3. Proportions are only fair, and they can seriously affect the stones brilliance and "fire". A true statement. But in this case, though I'd have to see it to be sure, I'm going to guess that it's likely to be a reasonalby good looking stone on both accounts. 4. Table diameter should be between 52 and 58%. 5. Girdle thickness should be thin to sllightly thick. True again, for an ideal. But there are more than a few people who actually prefer a table closer to 60 percent. It's not the mathematical ideal, and it tends to make the center of the stone look different from the periphery, but that's somewhat a matter of taste. At 59 percent, that's not a bad table diameter. the main thing is that with that figure, the 16 percent crown hight is slightly higher than it should be, and the usual effect of a larger table is somewhat counterbalanced by the higher crown, so again, I'd guess this is a good looking stone. Normally, a larger table means more brillinace (reflectivity), at the expense of fire (spectral colored light reflections) and scintillation (the sense of "movement" as the stone or the viewers eye moves around). But the higher crown accentuates both fire and scintillation. So likely, the result is going to look OK. The main thing is that it adds weight in the vertical dimension of the stone, as does the slightly deep pavilion and decidedly thick girdle. So the main problem with the stones dimensions is that one is paying for a one carat sized stone, but getting the diameter look of one slightly smaller. As to price, well, looking at internet sellers, some of whom are typically well below average retail store prices, I find one carat diamonds, with certs, in VS1, I, quality (not worrying about cutting) in a range of from about 3300 to 4800, all from one seller who I think is among the significantly cheaper sources out there, though he's selling to the retail public, not truely wholesale. That's for a stone paid by cash wire transfer prior to shipping the stone, and does not include a mounting, or shipping, or sales tax, etc.. All told, if you paid around 4800 U.S. then I don't think you did badly at all. Could you have paid less? Sure. But I don't think you got "taken" at all. Most fine retail jewelery stores would have charged you as much, or likely, a good deal more. And some fine and reputable stores would have charged you substantially more. Maybe by a lot. Who knows. Diamonds these days can vary a lot at the retail level. Some internet sellers charge as little as ten or fifteen percent markup (my friend, who's site I checked), while other sellers, high line retail stores with a fancy reputation, might charge retail markups of as much as three times the wholesale cost. There are many variables in a diamond sale that change what a reasonable markup would be. All told, I don't think you did too badly. Don't worry too much about whether you paid the best price or not. You paid, or it seems to me from what little i can glean from your post, a reasonable price, not one to be too alarmed about, nor one to stand on the rooftops and boast about. OK, well and done. The really important thing is that you and your fiance like the stone. If that's true, then the price is less important. Peter Rowe your humble moderator, and an old graduate gemologist too...
|
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | |
|
|
Linear Mode
