Safety issues using bulk propylene

I'm a beginner in hot glass after playing around with stained glass -
and yes - I've googled my butt off already!
Hoping some of you can share your knowledge on this. Switching from
MAPP canisters to bulk propylene has been rather discouraging so far
after reading the safety posts at isgb forums.

Since the bulk tanks are at high pressures with no regulators (unlike
propane tanks) and since the torch is mounted to a hose rather than a
tank - The issue seems to be - is the hose reliable at those pressures
since they are basically just Coleman type propane hoses? Ever had a
hose rupture or hear of one doing so?
Flashback to the tank seems highly unlikely given the design of the HH
and pressure of the tank?

Am I missing another issue with the bulk tanks? The tank would remain
outside, just like any other fuel tank.

One more thing, does $22 for refilling a 6 lb. tank sound like a bad
deal? I have only found one place willing to sell me bulk propylene and
it's about 30 miles away. MAPP is 8 bucks a shot for 1 lb. cans. So I
would save about 50% by switching. (But gasoline for a 60 mile trip!)

Clearly, after calculating long term fuel costs, a minor and oxycon
become an enticing deal, but adding in regulators, hoses, and such -
wow. Thanks much! Jo

Hi Jo, Well you certainly have thought things out! I really don't have
information that you haven't yet explored - except to say that you only
need one regulator if you use the oxy con and propane setup - and you
will truly love the difference. Oxy cons connect directly to the torch
via a hose - with no regulator - only the propane tank will require a
regulator - so here is what you will need - two hoses - you already
have one, one regulator, propane tank, torch, and oxy
con...considering your time, travel and safety you may want to
seriously consider this option. Basically the only costs up front for
you will be one propane tank regulator, one oxy con, one hose, and one
torch. So about $500 up front - but you will never have to worry about
refills again and you won't have to travel all over God's creation to
fill up.

OH, your tank cost sounds OK - I pay $11 for fill up - but different
areas have different prices.

Happy Beading!
Denise
www.glassbeadz.com

Glitzy Glass wrote:

Hi Jo, Well you certainly have thought things out! I really don't have
information that you haven't yet explored - except to say that you only
need one regulator if you use the oxy con and propane setup - and you
will truly love the difference. Oxy cons connect directly to the torch
via a hose - with no regulator - only the propane tank will require a
regulator - so here is what you will need - two hoses - you already
have one, one regulator, propane tank, torch, and oxy
con...considering your time, travel and safety you may want to
seriously consider this option. Basically the only costs up front for
you will be one propane tank regulator, one oxy con, one hose, and one
torch. So about $500 up front - but you will never have to worry about
refills again and you won't have to travel all over God's creation to
fill up.

Yes, I've got the economics part of things pretty well down pat now!
----wondering if the motorists passing by and seeing my sign -
"Broke, hungry, need Moretti" will take pity and offer help?----

Just trying to figure out the statistical probability of blowing myself
up in the meantime ;-D

OH, your tank cost sounds OK - I pay $11 for fill up - but different
areas have different prices.

We are only at $14 for 20lbs. propane, but the bulk propylene was
significantly higher at $3.66 per lb. Still beats the little canisters,
tho, not to mention the problem of disposing them. Thanks, Jo


Happy Beading!
Denise
www.glassbeadz.com

I used a bulk MAPP TANK (still out in my shed)
when I first started.
You do need a regulator --

put the regulator ON THE TANK - and attach the hose to the regulator --
then you have no PRESSURE worries on the hose - because the pressure in
the hose is only a couple of pounds.

yes - it's cheaper
even with driving to get it refilled.
$22 for it probably is about right - it was $14 when I started - 8
years ago.

Cheryl

In article ,
says...
Switching from
MAPP canisters to bulk propylene has been rather discouraging so far
after reading the safety posts at isgb forums.

Why has it been discouraging?

Not to discredit anyone in particular, but it's important to keep in
mind, Jo, that a lot of the information you read on open forums is based
on opinions and/or personal preferences.

I don't think I'm crossing any lines when I say that some of the stuff
posted on these forums (and passed on as accurate information, even by
people who don't have direct experience with whatever is being asked),
can be downright scary. It's perfectly fine to use this information as
a guideline, but seek second opinions from reputable sources, as
well...from particular manufacturers, for instance, or folks whom you
know have a certain degree of knowledge on the subject and are not just
"parroting" what they hear.

Fran
http://www.deepwoodart.com

In article . com,
says...
I used a bulk MAPP TANK (still out in my shed)
when I first started.
You do need a regulator --

Not if you're using a HotHead, or any of the smaller torches, as these
are designed to run at tank pressure.

Jo, you can use a regulator if you want to, or if the gas people require
you to have one before they sell you any fuel. But in general you don't
need one if you're using one of the beginner torches. I started on a
HotHead and bulk MAPP, I never used a regulator.

But again, contact your torch manufacturer to make sure.

And I'd buy the hoses and whatever accessories from one of the glass
suppliers, not from just any old place.

Fran
http://www.deepwoodart.com

FRan
pardon my disagreement - but I had a HOT HEAD and a bulk MAPP tank...
the torch would NOT STAY LIT or WORK PROPERLY until I obtained a
regulator - then it worked like a dream.

I addressed this issue with many people at the time - some had success,
and some did not - the reason was never ascertained... however those
who switched to a propane single stage regulator found out they had
better success and more control with their Hot Head.

I couldn't get my HOT HEAD torch to work without it...

Cheryl
Deepwood Art wrote:

Jo, you can use a regulator if you want to, or if the gas people require
you to have one before they sell you any fuel. But in general you don't
need one if you're using one of the beginner torches. I started on a
HotHead and bulk MAPP, I never used a regulator.

But again, contact your torch manufacturer to make sure.

And I'd buy the hoses and whatever accessories from one of the glass
suppliers, not from just any old place.

Fran
http://www.deepwoodart.com

Deepwood Art wrote:
In article ,
says...

Switching from
MAPP canisters to bulk propylene has been rather discouraging so far
after reading the safety posts at isgb forums.


Why has it been discouraging?

Not to discredit anyone in particular, but it's important to keep in
mind, Jo, that a lot of the information you read on open forums is based
on opinions and/or personal preferences.

Of course. But even in usenet, logic sometimes prevails. I was reading
the isgb Safety Forum - in particular, the HH torch hoses, and Bulk
Tanks threads.

The HH torch is manufactured to run at just under 100 psi (pressure of
the one lb. MAPP canisters). Unregulated bulk propylene is tanked at
around 120 psi. That is signifcantly more pressure than the plumbed
propane or natural gas that is used to heat our homes.

Compared to a regulated propane tank coming in at ~5 psi, it comes down
to 20+ times more pressure. If there is a leak at the HH, the hose, or
the connection - that tank can empty out 20 times faster than the
propane tank can (or the gas from your home heating system in the same
amount of time) - and into your studio. I think the posters at isgb had
valid points. That's what I find discouraging - I wanted to believe I
would be operating in a safe manner, but I don't see anything to dispute
their very valid points.

I don't think I'm crossing any lines when I say that some of the stuff
posted on these forums (and passed on as accurate information, even by
people who don't have direct experience with whatever is being asked),
can be downright scary. It's perfectly fine to use this information as
a guideline, but seek second opinions from reputable sources, as
well...from particular manufacturers, for instance, or folks whom you
know have a certain degree of knowledge on the subject and are not just
"parroting" what they hear.

Oh, I hear you on that!

Fran
http://www.deepwoodart.com

Cheryl wrote:

FRan
pardon my disagreement - but I had a HOT HEAD and a bulk MAPP tank...
the torch would NOT STAY LIT or WORK PROPERLY until I obtained a
regulator - then it worked like a dream.

I addressed this issue with many people at the time - some had success,
and some did not - the reason was never ascertained... however those
who switched to a propane single stage regulator found out they had
better success and more control with their Hot Head.

I couldn't get my HOT HEAD torch to work without it...

One of those things that make you go Hhmmm...
The HH manufacturer states a regulator is not needed, but...
What pressure did you set the regulator at, and was it a 0 to 300 type?

Tank vapor pressures do vary a LOT at various temperatures. Just
another thing to think about - on hot days my tank pressures will be
greater than 120 psi (maybe 150 - 160) and on cold days, very much less.
But with or without the regulator, the safety concerns remain the same
unless you can regulate working pressure down to, let's say, 10 or 20?

Deepwood Art wrote:

And I'd buy the hoses and whatever accessories from one of the glass
suppliers, not from just any old place.

Fran
http://www.deepwoodart.com

Oh, then I better put the aquarium air-line stuff away!