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#1
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need advice on ring repair
Hi,
I would really appreciate some advice on how to fix my great- grandmother's ring My mother replaced two stones with something the local jeweler could find ("granat"? I think... ) when they fell out some years ago, and now I am wearing the ring and... well, another stone just fell out I bought some (cheap) loose diamonds on ebay and discovered that they don't match the ring at all. The main problem is, the diamonds in my ring have a lot *fewer* facets(?) and they don't have as much of that overwhelming sparkle, they almost look _transparent_. They also don't have a flat top (instead, they come to a point). The two fake "granat"replacement stones do have a flat top (but they look different, and dull - I would like to replace them too, actually). Here are some pictures (this was really difficult to photograph... so please forgive the quality.. and the background, lol) : http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring1.jpg - the missing stone at 9 o'clock, the fake ones at 11 and 12. The e- bay diamond is next to the ring, and the picture doesn't do it justice to show just how out of place it looks next to the ring. More pictures, from a different angle: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring2.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring3.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring6.jpg - the fakes are at 5&6 o'clock now. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring8.jpg - at 11 and 12. My main question is: where to get the right cut of diamond that matches best? What is the name of the cut I need? And once I get the right stones, can just about any jeweler at the local Zales/Kay store at the mall put the stones in? I am kind of skeptical, I've once had a necklace repaired there, and that was a total hack job. Really terrible And, finally, should I just stop wearing the ring (I like it, and I would rather not!), since it's old and the stones are falling out? What is the normal "lifespan" of a ring like this? This one was made in 1880s. Thanks! P.S. if someone decides to reply by e-mail, please use "ochame_0 (at) yahoo.com", and not the address in the header (that one went defunct ages ago). |
#3
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need advice on ring repair
On Jan 21, 9:23 pm, Heinrich Butschal
wrote: http://www.schmuck-boerse.com/brosche/5/detail.htm http://www.schmuck-boerse.com/brosche/6/detail.htm Those look fantastic! Beautiful. Thank you for your encouragement. I hope I will find someone with the skill and the knowledge. Hopefully, I won't even have to travel to either coast to find them O. |
#4
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need advice on ring repair
On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:37:11 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry
wrote: Hi, I would really appreciate some advice on how to fix my great- grandmother's ring My mother replaced two stones with something the local jeweler could find ("granat"? I think... ) when they fell out some years ago, and now I am wearing the ring and... well, another stone just fell out I bought some (cheap) loose diamonds on ebay and discovered that they don't match the ring at all. What you bought on ebay are modern cutting designs. Larger modern round stones usually have 58 facets, and are called round brilliants, or full cuts when they're small. Smaller, simpler ones, have 8 facets on the bottom, 8 crown (angled) facets on the top, and the flat "table" facet, and sometimes a tiny flat one on the point on the bottom. These are called single cuts. Both of these cuts differ from yours in that, because of the pointed bottom side (called a "pavilion"), these are able to reflect most of the light that hits them from the top, back to the viewer (that's the property that the word "brilliant" refers to in the name of the more complex standard round cut). Your small stones were cut before the optics of diamond were fully understood, so they were not cut for this degree of reflectivity. Thus they have a flat back, and a nice pattern of facets on the top forming a shallow dome or shallow peak, etc. They weigh a lot less for a stone of a given diameter than do modern cuts, and are typical of small diamonds used in jewelry before the first decade or so of the 20th century. They are called "rose cuts", and in buying them, what you generally need to specify is the diameter of the stone. You may or may not be able to find these sold to the public on ebay. Much less common than modern cut stones (single cuts or full cuts), they nevertheless are still available, usually as stones that have been reclaimed from antiques that no longer can be repaired or aren't worth repairing. Some are still cut today, and some modern jewelers are rediscovering that the old rose cuts have a charm of their own, so occasionally you'll find a jeweler using them in contemporary jewelry. That creates some demand as well as the ongoing needs of jewelers for rose cuts to replace stones missing in antiques, such as your situation. The main problem is, the diamonds in my ring have a lot *fewer* facets(?) and they don't have as much of that overwhelming sparkle, they almost look _transparent_. They also don't have a flat top (instead, they come to a point). The two fake "granat"replacement stones do have a flat top (but they look different, and dull - I would like to replace them too, actually). Here are some pictures (this was really difficult to photograph... so please forgive the quality.. and the background, lol) : Not that bad a set of photos, actually, for someone not used to photographing jewelry... Small reflective objects have never been easy to photograph. You did well enough for us to see what's needed. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring1.jpg - the missing stone at 9 o'clock, the fake ones at 11 and 12. The e- bay diamond is next to the ring, and the picture doesn't do it justice to show just how out of place it looks next to the ring. More pictures, from a different angle: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring2.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring3.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring6.jpg - the fakes are at 5&6 o'clock now. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring8.jpg - at 11 and 12. My main question is: where to get the right cut of diamond that matches best? What is the name of the cut I need? As I said, they're called Rose cuts. The bigger question is where to get them. I've got a source or two, diamond dealers I've dealt with who have some, and most decent jewelers also have access to diamond dealers who may have these. There are also a few diamond dealers who specialize in rose cuts and the other two common antique diamond cuts, called "old european" and "old mine" cuts. But your problem is that most of these dealers are wholesale only, not generally dealing with the public directly. Feel free to search on the web, and maybe you'll get lucky, but I'd say your best bet is to first concentrate on finding a competent goldsmith skilled in jewelry repair more complex than simple ring sizing or chain repairs and the like, and who's got experience in working with antiques like this. It can be more tricky than it seems to a non jeweler, since often the metal alloys are slightly different, methods of construction may not be the same as with modern jewelery, and there are a lot of less skilled (I'm being polite) goldsmiths working in places like the department store kiosks etc, who are just fine in ring sizing and chain repairs and simple stuff with modern jewelery, but who'll make an absolute mess of a nice antique, and sometimes not even know they've done so. It would appear (judging by the poorly chosen replacements, and perhaps the poor setting (since stones fell out)) that your ring has already suffered enough at the hands of such folks. So it's time to find someone who knows what they're doing. And you probably won't find that at a chain jewelry store like Zales, or the kiosk at Fred Meyer, or Sears, or for that matter, most of the jewelery stores found in shopping malls. You need to find a store that's been around for a while, and has enough of it's own workshop, probably on the premises, that they can and do make at least some of their own jewelry for sale, and are able to do decent skilled repair work. If they happen to be equipped with modern tools like laser welders, the degree to which some of the antique jewelry can be fully and well restored is greatly increased (the lasers are wonderful tools for this type of work, making it possible to gently and precisly build up and restore worn prongs, etc, without flooding the whole thing with messy solder or otherwise causing more damage than is being fixed... Once you find the person or shop who's well equipped to do this type of work competently, let them order the rose cuts for you. They'll have the sources, and be able to precisely measure the size that will work best (It does need to be pretty much exactly right in order to get the best job, and you may not know what to look for with that measurement if you're doing it yourself) They'll also be better able to match the existing color and clarity of the other stones, so the new ones match as well as possible. And once I get the right stones, can just about any jeweler at the local Zales/Kay store at the mall put the stones in? I am kind of skeptical, I've once had a necklace repaired there, and that was a total hack job. Really terrible Yup. many of these shops are staffed with rather less skilled workers, who are nevertheless overworked, and pressed to work as fast as they can with the limited skills and equipment they have available. It's not always this way, but often enough to be hard to recommend any of the chain stores as a general rule. This is probably unfair to those workers in those shops who do indeed have skill and take their time, but finding those few among the hacks is hard to do unless you know someone who knows a specific jeweler who's prooved him or herself capable. And, finally, should I just stop wearing the ring (I like it, and I would rather not!), since it's old and the stones are falling out? Stop wearing it until you get if fixed. If one stone recently fell out, chances are others are not tight enough any more either, and you risk loosing more if you keep wearing it. This does not mean you have to give up wearing it altogether, just that you should have it properly and fully serviced before you put it back on. You'd not drive your car around with no brakes and a blown radiator until you'd had both fixed, but then it would be fine. Same thing. Do note that antique jewelry was made in an era when most people did not wear their jewels all the time. They were worn on special occasions, or for "dress up" days and the like, rather than seven days a week without a care. So many antiques are quite delicate, not made for heavy day to day wear. Your ring isn't quite in that catagory, but even so, the amount of metal holding the stones may be small. it needs to be serviced now and then to make sure everything is safe, and to correct any loose stones or worn settings before you loose hard to replace stones. It's much easier to keep a stone from falling out in the first place, than to find an exact replacement after one does fall out. What is the normal "lifespan" of a ring like this? This one was made in 1880s. That depends on how you wear it. And keep in mind that for the most part, wear and tear can almost always be restored and repaired, if you are willing to have it done. Peter Thanks! P.S. if someone decides to reply by e-mail, please use "ochame_0 (at) yahoo.com", and not the address in the header (that one went defunct ages ago). |
#5
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need advice on ring repair
On Jan 21, 9:59 pm, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrote: Thank you for such a detailed reply!!! Your explanations made perfect sense. With the information you provided, I will know what to look for so I can educate myself further. I will also look for the right place to have the restoration job done. I had no idea what I was getting into when I decided to do something about that ring. It's really not a small job, is it? Thanks again! O. |
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need advice on ring repair
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need advice on ring repair
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#8
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need advice on ring repair
On Jan 22, 4:59 pm, Ted Frater wrote:
wrote: On Jan 21, 9:59 pm, "Peter W.. Rowe," wrote: Thank you for such a detailed reply!!! Your explanations made perfect sense. With the information you provided, I will know what to look for so I can educate myself further. I will also look for the right place to have the restoration job done. I had no idea what I was getting into when I decided to do something about that ring. It's really not a small job, is it? Thanks again! O. Ive had a look at the images you posted of this ring. Im not a jeweller but a silversmith, so couldnt do the repairs needed. [...] Now the real question is who is competent to do this overhaul and supply suitable replacement stones? Certainly not me, I'm just a beader who occasionally comes by here, but I live in a rather small town and I found a jeweler here who I'd trust with a job like that - he builds up the setting on my wedding ring just about each time I take it in when the diamond gets loose, but that's just plain gold. If there's somebody like that here you should be able to find one where you are. I found that people like that usually don't have big stores, and definitely not in malls. You're looking for an artist (a very skilled one) rather than for a salesperson. Aloha, Maren HiloBeads: Beads - Findings - Hand-made Jewelry http://www.hilobeads.com/ |
#9
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need advice on ring repair
On Jan 22, 9:59=A0pm, Ted Frater wrote:
wrote: On Jan 21, 9:59 pm, "Peter W.. Rowe," wrote: Thank you for such a detailed reply!!! Your explanations made perfect sense. With the information you provided, I will know what to look for so I can educate myself further. I will also look for the right place to have the restoration job done. I had no idea what I was getting into when I decided to do something about that ring. It's really not a small job, is it? Thanks again! O. Ive had a look at the images you posted of this ring. =A0 Im not a jeweller but a silversmith, so couldnt do the repairs needed.= However I do know whats good and this ring is in this caqtegory. =A0 The shank , the gold part that goes around your finger appears not to be worn, thats in its favour. =A0 Also the design is quite charming . =A0 so its well worth restoring. in my view. =A0 The stones are like Peter has written . most probably =A0set with silv= er and the way they are set is called a rub over setting. In view of its age and theway you would like to wear it, Id say all the settings need to be replaced, so that it will have another 120 years or so of useful life. Now the real question is who is competent to do this overhaul and supply suitable replacement stones? Ted Frater =A0 Dorset UK Silversmith and minter.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Hello, Here's a thought, you have nice ring that can be reworked with new stones all around. The stones in the ring now look dead and have no life. Many people are suprised to find out that in fact synthetic stones have been around for hundreds of years. Now I'm not saying you're stones are man made, but to find stones to match is only one of the considerations you have to look at. The stones are set in white gold bezels, and most likley will be worn to a point where they need replacing to set a new stone. Here in lies the problem, once the ring is heated to remove the old bezels is when you'll find out what the stones are. I would even suspect the center stone could be man made, as I see alot of wear on the facets. I know the ring is very old and most likely it's just wear and tear. The ring will have to be heated to release the worn gold so at this point be prepared to be turned down by alot of jewelers who won't take the chance of having to replace stones without you knowing the possibility of them popping. I suggest you go to ebay after you have someone with a millimeter gage take measurements of the stones, and go with Moissanite. They'er beautiful and take heat like a diamond, also their very hard and will resist scratching for years. You'd be supprised at how many people wearing two carat or more diamonds are really Moissanite. In any event, these are just suggestions. I have repaired many rings like this, and you just don't know what to expect until you start working. Good luck, Mark |
#10
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need advice on ring repair
On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:40:21 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Graver
wrote: Hello, Here's a thought, you have nice ring that can be reworked with new stones all around. replacing the old stones with new modern stones would indeed make the ring look livelier. But it would also completely remove any antique value it now probably has. The stones in the ring now look dead and have no life. An overstatement. The old rose cuts aren't as bright, but they have a charm all of their own. A whole lot of improvement can be had with just a good cleaning. Many people are suprised to find out that in fact synthetic stones have been around for hundreds of years. Imitations have been around for hundreds (note the s) of years. As old as jewelry making. But true synthetics weren't really commercially available until the flame fusion synthetic rubies, and later other forms of synthetic corrundum, became available in the late 1800s. Clear ones weren't widely available until almost world war 1. This ring predates that. Now I'm not saying you're stones are man made, but to find stones to match is only one of the considerations you have to look at. The stones are set in white gold bezels, and most likley will be worn to a point where they need replacing to set a new stone. No. At this time, white gold was not yet developed. That became available as an alternative to platinum during world war 1. At the time this ring was made, the white metal used in the top would have been a silver based alloy. One finds just plain sterling silver, fine silver, and "electrum" mixes of gold and silver with enough silver to be still white. Determining just which is in any given antique can be tricky, as is rebuilding them. And, usually this style is not full bezel settings, which would be completely around the stone. Rather, the outer rim is complete around the ring, with the edges of the stones nudged under that outer ring, like a bezel (or maybe just the outer edge mashed over the edges by time and wear), but the settings are usually actually set and mostly held by two shared beads on the inner sides of the diamonds, between them. When these come loose, often it's simply the beads that need to be reformed and tightened, or built up, and often the outer bezel, with a bit of work with a small burnisher, can be simply reshaped without needing much added metal. When these silver tops actually need metal added, it can be quite tricky to do well. I've seen a lot of these that were "rebuilt" by jewelers using white gold solders, and the results are seldom quite what the original design had in mind, and almost always, though they can be pretty, they no longer have any value as antiques. Here in lies the problem, once the ring is heated to remove the old bezels is when you'll find out what the stones are. Oh? I'd expect any competent jeweler would make very sure he or she knows exactly what the stone and the metals are long before ever reaching for a torch, or for that matter, giving a final price quote for the job. Heating by itself won't identify the stones other than by destroying some types, but it could damage them if you don't know what they are. In some cases, the stones would need to be carefully cut out of the ring before any heating takes place. Certainly, if you're replacing the whole white top, this would be the proper course of action. I would even suspect the center stone could be man made, Maybe. At the late 1800s, the blue synthetics were, if available at all, still unusual. One does see doublets, glass, etc. synthetic sapphire or the more common synthetic blue spinel isn't that different from natural sapphire in it's resistance to wear and tear. I'd guess this is probably a real stone, just from it's age. Glass would have died long ago. But of course, a proper determination of what it is needs more than a blurred photo on the internet to take any real guess at. as I see alot of wear on the facets. I know the ring is very old and most likely it's just wear and tear. The ring will have to be heated to release the worn gold. Sometimes, but it can also be removed mechanically (files, gravers, etc) which in some cases is the safer way to do it. Slower, but safer. And as I said, at this time period (late 1800s) it won't be white gold. Platinum is a possibility, but not as likely. so at this point be prepared to be turned down by alot of jewelers who won't take the chance of having to replace stones without you knowing the possibility of them popping. I suggest you go to ebay after you have someone with a millimeter gage take measurements of the stones, and go with Moissanite. They'er beautiful and take heat like a diamond, also their very hard and will resist scratching for years. You'd be supprised at how many people wearing two carat or more diamonds are really Moissanite. Yeah, so would I. In over 30 years of working with jewelery in manufacturing and in trade shop repair business, I can count on one hand the number of moissanites that have come through the shop where the owner didn't know it, and not many more where the owner did. Manufacturers we work with who've tried them as showcase stones instead of diamonds for display purposes usually go back to CZ quickly. They've not been around all that long, they're costly as an imitation, and frankly, I disagree with you a little on the good looks. I find them usually to be darker in color than I like, and I find the strong double refraction distracting. Yes, they're nice and attractive, but frankly, a really well cut C.Z. looks more like diamond than a moissonite. The CZ won't last as long of course, but you can buy a hundred of em for the cost of the moissanite, and replace the CZs as they get worn. In any event, these are just suggestions. I have repaired many rings like this, and you just don't know what to expect until you start working. Very true indeed. Peter |
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