Who has the right to know?

I woke this morning with the above title in my head.
So I asked myself the question?
why is it that this trade is accused of being reluctant to divulge its
knowhow? particularly on this newsgroup
and I include myself in this when other skills like those recently
mentioned here, for example beer, bread, sausage making etc, the
knowhow is freely available everywhere? for the asking.
Thinking around it over coffee It seems to be rooted in our tradition.
So one goes on and asks whats that? and more importantly why?
Having asked the question I now have to answer it! at least for myself
Ive allways been deeply interested in metalworking particularly in its
history from the earliest bronze age. Ive thought a lot over the years
how did those matalworkers with their limited understanding of
metallurgy in comparison to that we have today , achieve the results
they did?
It has to be through many false trials, inconcistent results and a great
deal of effort.
Viewed from the outside in the Bronze and early iron age, anyone that
could turn what appeared to be just stones , with fire , into shiny
metal ie gold or silver, was someone beyond a normal human, ie some kind
of god or majician as we say today.
So it follows from this ,so it seems to me, that this kind of knowhow
wether historical or as used today is still hard won through ones own
efforts. One can read it all up in theory but to go and do it still
takes a lot of practice and actual practical selflearning.
Ive designed , made and marketed my oewn products over the years and
have ofter been asked , how do you do this? is it easy,? can I learn
this too?
Ive had to answer by analogy.
Ive usedf the example of learning to play say the piano or the violin.
Anyone can bang the kewboard or push the bow over the stings, but to
interpret say Brahms piano concherto or a similar work on the violin,
how much practice does one need to do this ?
Herin lies I think , the answer.
Any hard won knowhow isnt for free, and I dont think ever will be.
The enquirer has to be seen to be making a real effort first before
being admitted to the mysteries of the craft. ( As described in medieval
apprenticship indentures)
I am bound by this tradition out of respect for all the smiths that have
gone before me, and whose knowhow Ive learned in the same way as they did.
What do you all think?
Ted Frater Dorset UK.

"Ted Frater" wrote in message
...
I woke this morning with the above title in my head.
So I asked myself the question?
why is it that this trade is accused of being reluctant to divulge its
knowhow? particularly on this newsgroup


Who are the accusers? They should do a search on jewelry making. There are
over 5,000,000 pages available that divulge secrets of the trade. Will E.

"Ted Frater" wrote in message
...
I woke this morning with the above title in my head.
So I asked myself the question?
why is it that this trade is accused of being reluctant to divulge its
knowhow? particularly on this newsgroup
and I include myself in this when other skills like those recently
mentioned here, for example beer, bread, sausage making etc, the
knowhow is freely available everywhere? for the asking.
Thinking around it over coffee It seems to be rooted in our tradition.
So one goes on and asks whats that? and more importantly why?
Having asked the question I now have to answer it! at least for myself
Ive allways been deeply interested in metalworking particularly in its
history from the earliest bronze age. Ive thought a lot over the years
how did those matalworkers with their limited understanding of
metallurgy in comparison to that we have today , achieve the results
they did?
It has to be through many false trials, inconcistent results and a great
deal of effort.
Viewed from the outside in the Bronze and early iron age, anyone that
could turn what appeared to be just stones , with fire , into shiny
metal ie gold or silver, was someone beyond a normal human, ie some kind
of god or majician as we say today.
So it follows from this ,so it seems to me, that this kind of knowhow
wether historical or as used today is still hard won through ones own
efforts. One can read it all up in theory but to go and do it still
takes a lot of practice and actual practical selflearning.
Ive designed , made and marketed my oewn products over the years and
have ofter been asked , how do you do this? is it easy,? can I learn
this too?
Ive had to answer by analogy.
Ive usedf the example of learning to play say the piano or the violin.
Anyone can bang the kewboard or push the bow over the stings, but to
interpret say Brahms piano concherto or a similar work on the violin,
how much practice does one need to do this ?
Herin lies I think , the answer.
Any hard won knowhow isnt for free, and I dont think ever will be.
The enquirer has to be seen to be making a real effort first before
being admitted to the mysteries of the craft. ( As described in medieval
apprenticship indentures)
I am bound by this tradition out of respect for all the smiths that have
gone before me, and whose knowhow Ive learned in the same way as they did.
What do you all think?

UCE cancelled some short courses this year due to lack interest.

There's a shortage of apprentices in the Birmingham Jewellery Quarter

Making good jewellery is highly skilled and reasonably hard work, people
want short cuts, and they just don't exist...

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

"Ted Frater"

What do you all think?

Ah... a question I feel qualified to answer as I can think.

First of all, the knee-jerk reaction to the overall sense of your
position....

Why do you bother participating in a forum, the purpose of which is to share
information on the subject that you do not wish to share information on?

As to the position itself.....

I happen to play the violin and if someone asked my how to play the violin ,
I would respond as you have, in general terms and possibly with a bit of
riducule because it really is a stupid question.

On the other hand, if someone asked me what the best material for a bow
string was or for the position of Middle C on the staff, I would simply
answer the question.

The other aspect that you did not even mention, which might justify such an
attitude is the fact that most of the crafts I referred to are either
megabusinesses or hobbies and the folks who participate in the internet fora
are usually the latter. I have yet to see Auggie Bush participate in a beer
fourm and the CEO of Kraft probably has better things to do.

The fact that some professional jewelers and metalsmiths participate in
these fora could explain the attitude of some of them but I personally do
not see this as justification for what seems petty, selfish and a bit
paranoid and again.... why are they here?

That's what I think,

Thanks for asking.

js


--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com

Ted Frater wrote:
(a nice line of thoughts on learning and performing)

It happened that a reporter for a local newspaper was interviewing me
last week and one of her questions was, "Where did you go to school to
learn all this?"

I told her that I was self taught. Then, I could tell (or imagine) by
the expression on her face that she did not expect this, and somehow
wanted a list of schools and degrees -- that self-taught didn't carry
the credibility that certain schools or diplomas might.

My response to that reaction was: "In the end, even if we go to school,
we are all self-taught. Schools may make it easier, and provide a
planned body of knowledge, and provide diplomas, but in the end, we all
have to be self-taught." I dropped the name of a school where I did grad
work in studio arts, and were a course in marine biology led to a whole
product line of jewelry. But that part of my education didn't have much
to do with why she was interviewing me.

Looking back, I could see the gaps in learning from books. I remember
someone telling me back in the beginning that I had to do a better job
of removing fire scale -- and I had never even heard of fire scale!
That's how you learn. Doing things by trial and error can give you
information that's never been published in books. That's how discoveries
are made. That's how original work is done.

Gee, Ted, what are you doing, leaving all these soap boxes around the
park for lunatics like me to get up and start philosophizing on? :-)

Ted Frater wrote:

The enquirer has to be seen to be making a real effort first before
being admitted to the mysteries of the craft. ( As described in
medieval
apprenticship indentures)
I am bound by this tradition out of respect for all the smiths that
have
gone before me, and whose knowhow Ive learned in the same way as they
did.
What do you all think?

A fine recepe for creating cliches and jewelers who only make cliches.
That's not the way knowledge progresses -- it's the way in-groups
protect their power and sense of importance.

"C. Gates" wrote in message
...
Ted Frater wrote:
(a Gee, Ted, what are you doing, leaving all these soap boxes around the


It seems as if we neeed another newsgroup called "rec.crafts.jewelry.chat.
What do you all think about it?

Well, here is another take on the question. Just recently (in fact
only a few postings down the list) I asked for advice about doing
tumble finishing - what to use, what kind of results to expect, etc.

Had I spent any time doing research on the subject first? Absolutely.
I had looked through several books that I owned, had done some online
research and had even ordered a book specifically about the subject
from Rio Grande. The problem was two-fold. Being dyslexic had a
negative effect in that it took me forever to wade through the sea of
words for the specific information I needed. Ultimately, many sources
of available information contradicted each other - as well as making
the whole thing overly complex (this was especially true of the Rio
Grande book). Thanks to some wonderful and specific advice from a
reader of this forum (thank you, Li!) I can now sell certain pieces
more affordably and can turn my attention to other tasks.

Within this forum, one may certainly be unwilling to give away their
secret rouge formula, or tell a specific technique that they have
developed themselves over the course of much trial and error.
However, it seems punitive to force people to reinvent the wheel
rather than share information. Isn't that what this forum is for?

Christine

Jack Schmidling wrote in message
. ..
"Ted Frater"

What do you all think?

Ah... a question I feel qualified to answer as I can think.

First of all, the knee-jerk reaction to the overall sense of your
position....

Why do you bother participating in a forum, the purpose of which is to share
information on the subject that you do not wish to share information on?

As to the position itself.....

I happen to play the violin and if someone asked my how to play the violin ,
I would respond as you have, in general terms and possibly with a bit of
riducule because it really is a stupid question.

On the other hand, if someone asked me what the best material for a bow
string was or for the position of Middle C on the staff, I would simply
answer the question.

The other aspect that you did not even mention, which might justify such an
attitude is the fact that most of the crafts I referred to are either
megabusinesses or hobbies and the folks who participate in the internet fora
are usually the latter. I have yet to see Auggie Bush participate in a beer
fourm and the CEO of Kraft probably has better things to do.

The fact that some professional jewelers and metalsmiths participate in
these fora could explain the attitude of some of them but I personally do
not see this as justification for what seems petty, selfish and a bit
paranoid and again.... why are they here?

That's what I think,

Thanks for asking.

js

Well, here is another take on the question. Just recently (in fact
only a few postings down the list) I asked for advice about doing
tumble finishing - what to use, what kind of results to expect, etc.

Had I spent any time doing research on the subject first? Absolutely.
I had looked through several books that I owned, had done some online
research and had even ordered a book specifically about the subject
from Rio Grande. The problem was two-fold. Being dyslexic had a
negative effect in that it took me forever to wade through the sea of
words for the specific information I needed. Ultimately, many sources
of available information contradicted each other - as well as making
the whole thing overly complex (this was especially true of the Rio
Grande book). Thanks to some wonderful and specific advice from a
reader of this forum (thank you, Li!) I can now sell certain pieces
more affordably and can turn my attention to other tasks.

Within this forum, one may certainly be unwilling to give away their
secret rouge formula, or tell a specific technique that they have
developed themselves over the course of much trial and error.
However, it seems punitive to force people to reinvent the wheel
rather than share information. Isn't that what this forum is for?

Christine

Jack Schmidling wrote in message
. ..
"Ted Frater"

What do you all think?

Ah... a question I feel qualified to answer as I can think.

First of all, the knee-jerk reaction to the overall sense of your
position....

Why do you bother participating in a forum, the purpose of which is to share
information on the subject that you do not wish to share information on?

As to the position itself.....

I happen to play the violin and if someone asked my how to play the violin ,
I would respond as you have, in general terms and possibly with a bit of
riducule because it really is a stupid question.

On the other hand, if someone asked me what the best material for a bow
string was or for the position of Middle C on the staff, I would simply
answer the question.

The other aspect that you did not even mention, which might justify such an
attitude is the fact that most of the crafts I referred to are either
megabusinesses or hobbies and the folks who participate in the internet fora
are usually the latter. I have yet to see Auggie Bush participate in a beer
fourm and the CEO of Kraft probably has better things to do.

The fact that some professional jewelers and metalsmiths participate in
these fora could explain the attitude of some of them but I personally do
not see this as justification for what seems petty, selfish and a bit
paranoid and again.... why are they here?

That's what I think,

Thanks for asking.

js

m wrote:
Ted Frater wrote:


The enquirer has to be seen to be making a real effort first before
being admitted to the mysteries of the craft. ( As described in
medieval
apprenticship indentures)
I am bound by this tradition out of respect for all the smiths that
have
gone before me, and whose knowhow Ive learned in the same way as they

did.

What do you all think?


A fine recepe for creating cliches and jewelers who only make cliches.
That's not the way knowledge progresses -- it's the way in-groups
protect their power and sense of importance.

Its an interesting view you state in your last sentence, but with every
view point like every coin there two sides.
Here in the UK we have the Goldsmiths co. One of the oldest guilds in
the City of london, founded over 700 years ago to protect the interests
of working gold and silversmiths. However to become a member one had to
operate in an etical way towards ones customers. so this in-group
had a very steadying influence on this trade being coupled with the hall
marking laws introdurced at the same time.
There are in- groups in just about every scene of activity, from here
the most obvious one in the US is The National Riflemans Association
enshrining I believe the right to bear arms and having a very powerful
lobby in your legislature..
Im not well enough informed to comment if this is a good or bad thing
for you US citzens, however its a good thing for the goldsmiths co to be
there as a watchdog over this trade and its dealings with the public at
large. I suppose it can be called a trade union for the want of a
better definition.
thank you everyone for your thoughts. Tomorrow ill be back in the
workshop relieving some frustrations with a hammer on a piece of metal.

Ted.