$1,000.00 Wish List

Peter,

That I what I had thought. For some reason, when I asked the man at
the welding supply place about putting a Y connector on the acetylene
tank, he said that for the size of the tank I was getting (B) I should
probably not try to run a Y off of it. Do you agree? Should I wait
until I have a larger tank to do this? I am not sure what difference
it would make, except to use it up faster. I just took him at his
word.

Raane

Peter W. Rowe pwrowe@ixDOTnetcomDOTcom wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 19:05:00 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry
(Raane) wrote:

I settled on a Little Torch using acetylene/oxygen with the idea that
later I will add a standard acetylene/air tank/handpiece.

It's simpler than I think you realize. the air/acetylene torches like the
smith, or prestolite, don't need an air tank. Just the acetylene tank you've
now bought. They simply mix atmospheric air with the fuel at the torch tip.
No air supply is needed. All you need is the Y connector, and the torch
itself.

Peter

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 07:48:29 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry
(Raane) wrote:

Peter,

That I what I had thought. For some reason, when I asked the man at
the welding supply place about putting a Y connector on the acetylene
tank, he said that for the size of the tank I was getting (B) I should
probably not try to run a Y off of it. Do you agree? Should I wait
until I have a larger tank to do this? I am not sure what difference
it would make, except to use it up faster. I just took him at his
word.

Chances are, his experience is with larger welding torches, which will burn
through the gas in a B sized tank rather quickly. But for what we do, a B size
is just fine, and is the most common sized tank most craftspeople use. Running
a Y connector off the regulator doesn't change the gas use, but it does make
the bulk of hoses and stuff attached to the tank greater, so it's even more
important that the tank be properly strapped, chained, or otherwise securely
attached to something solid, so it cannot tip over. Adding a Little torch to
an acetylene tank will make an almost negligeable dent in the gas use, even if
you're using both torches at the same time, since the little torch uses so very
little gas for those very tiny flames.

By the way, pay some attention to Abrasha's comments about tools. he's got
some very good points, and they come from a classically trained expert smith.
I'm not sure I agree with all his points, but they are good ones nonetheless.

About torches, he recommends a mouth blown torch. These are much more commonly
found in europe. Here in the U.S., a quick check of several tools suppliers
failed to find any such torch, so if you want one, you'd have to order it from
an overseas supplier. The mouth blown torches are a bit trickeir to learn, but
DO give you an amazingly useful instant control over the nature of the flame
you're using, and with only a propane or natural gas supply needed, are about
the cheapest to run torch you can have. I happen to like the things a lot,
too, but i don't recommend them for beginners in the U.S., simply because they
are hard to find, and it's even harder to find someone who'll show you how to
use it properly. It's for that reason that I continue to recommend the plain
air acetyelene torches like the Smith, or the cheaper and slightly poorer
quality prestolite.

However, regarding his comments about flexible shaft machines, I'd say I have
to agree. Many schools, even in this country, have only one or two flex shafts
in a studio for all to share. For most beginning jewelers, they are indeed a
costly optional tool. They are used most often in beginning fabrication, to
drill holes for peircing saws, and the like, and frankly, though it's a little
harder, you can do the same thing with a classic non-electric hand cranked hand
drill. In the industry, fles shaft machines are used a lot for stone setting,
cutting with burs and grinders and the like, where they are indespensible for
speed and production. But until you're doning stone setting, the trimming and
grinding and cutting you can do with them are mostly things you can do with
hand tools, and the kicker is, often you'll get more accuracy when you trim a
surface with a file, for example, than you do if you sand it down with a little
rotary disc. Flex shafts are nice labor savers, but not necessarily good for a
beginner who very much does, as Abrasha says, needs to learn to use files and
saws and traditional hand methods. These methods are cheap, accurate, and even
after you've done jewelry for decades and have all the neat power tools, still
remain the mainstay of how you work metal in jewelry making. Getting a flex
shaft machine looks nice on a new bench, and feels fancy, but is probably not a
good use of an initially limited budget. Spend it instead, on quality files,
pliers, a good sawframe, and the metals to work with.

If you get a tools catalog from Rio Grande, one of the better catalogs around
(not necessarily a better company, but certainly a wonderful catalog from a
company that has a very wide range of things available), you'll find they've
put together tool kits intended for beginners. While I don't always agree with
their choice of tools (I have some major objections, actually, to some of their
choices, which use overly cheap tools for some essentials) You'll note that
they do NOT include a flex shaft in the beginner kit. In fact, they don't even
include soldering equipment in the first beginner kit. You can make an awful
lot of stuff without needing to solder, and most of the basic skills can be
learned without needing to solder anything, and certainly without a flex shaft.
While I don't suggest not getting a torch, it illustrates the value of the
concept of starting with the basic techniques, and learning those before moving
on to the fancier stuff.

Peter

The supplier -may- have thought that you intended to use two torches at
the same time from the bottle. Acetylene should -*never*- be allowed to flow
from its tank at a rate greater than 1/7 the cylinder contents per hour
because if that rate is exceeded it is inevitable that the Acetone carrier
comes out with the Acetylene gas. SCFH (Acetylene consumption) ratings are
available for every torch tip size and if you intend to melt any large
amounts of metal in short time frame you will very probably need to go to
the next size larger Acetylene tank to prevent overdrawing gas. A 10 CF tank
is good for portability and -small- torches but a 40 is better and still not
too large to move. I have a 40CF for one of my torch setups (Smith "Little
Torch") and a 75CF for the larger Victor that I use when I want to melt 10
or more ounces of metal and Prestolite Air/Acet. on "Y" setup. In an
"emergency" I can use the 75 for either. I am one who abhors running out of
something in the middle of a process.

Pay close attention to the list and advice Abrasha gave you. If you never
learn to use your hands properly all the power tools in the store won't make
a Craftsman out of you.

--

Don Thompson

"The only stupid questions are those that should have been asked, but
weren't, or those
that have been asked and answered over and over, but the answers not
listened to." Peter Rowe


"Raane" wrote in message
...
Peter,

That I what I had thought. For some reason, when I asked the man at
the welding supply place about putting a Y connector on the acetylene
tank, he said that for the size of the tank I was getting (B) I should
probably not try to run a Y off of it. Do you agree? Should I wait
until I have a larger tank to do this? I am not sure what difference
it would make, except to use it up faster. I just took him at his
word.

Raane

Peter W. Rowe pwrowe@ixDOTnetcomDOTcom wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 19:05:00 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry

(Raane) wrote:

I settled on a Little Torch using acetylene/oxygen with the idea that
later I will add a standard acetylene/air tank/handpiece.

It's simpler than I think you realize. the air/acetylene torches like
the
smith, or prestolite, don't need an air tank. Just the acetylene tank
you've
now bought. They simply mix atmospheric air with the fuel at the torch
tip.
No air supply is needed. All you need is the Y connector, and the
torch
itself.

Peter

On 10-Feb-2004, (Raane) wrote:

That I what I had thought. For some reason, when I asked the man at
the welding supply place about putting a Y connector on the acetylene
tank, he said that for the size of the tank I was getting (B) I should
probably not try to run a Y off of it.

You should only pull 1/7 of an acetylene tanks capacity or less, so you do
not draw the acetone out of the tank. Also NEVER
turn the pressure higher than 15 PSI or BOOM. Acetylene can self ignite over
15 PSI. (Two reasons I prefer propane. 3, propane is cheaper and 4 easier to
get. (OK 4 reasons))

As for hand drilling over a dremel, I just dont get why slower is thought to
be better. Time is money, and if two pieces are the same, what does it mater
how it was drilled or buffed?? It may or may not take more or less skill one
way or another, but new ways of doing things came about because they do the
job better and faster most of the time.

Les

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:46:05 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry
wrote:

You should only pull 1/7 of an acetylene tanks capacity or less, so you do
not draw the acetone out of the tank.

Thanks, PIW, as well as thanks to Don, for pointing this out. It's something I
didn't know. never too old or experienced to learn something new!

Also NEVER
turn the pressure higher than 15 PSI or BOOM. Acetylene can self ignite over
15 PSI. (Two reasons I prefer propane. 3, propane is cheaper and 4 easier to
get. (OK 4 reasons))


But barring the mouth blown torch Abrasha recommended, or those needing a
separate compressed air supply, "Propane only" torches are much more limited,
from what I've seen, than the air/acetylene types. Of course, if we want to
get really picky, probably natural gas is even better than propane, both for
cost, and certainly safety, since with natural gas, one doesn't need to worry
about it's ability to "pool" in low spots if there's a leak, instead of
dissipating. Too bad that most non-commercial natural gas pressures are too
low to properly run a decent torch. I did see, though, recently in a ceramics
supply web site, a device one runs the low pressure type natural gas line
into, which boosts the pressure to allow things like torches, or in this case,
gas fired kilns, to run properly. Don't recall the price...

As for hand drilling over a dremel, I just dont get why slower is thought to
be better. Time is money, and if two pieces are the same, what does it mater
how it was drilled or buffed?? It may or may not take more or less skill one
way or another, but new ways of doing things came about because they do the
job better and faster most of the time.

Well, slower is usually more precise, with less chance of things going wrong.
for simple drilling of holes, it's not hard to do accurately with a power tool
like a dremel or flex shaft. But if that's all you're using the tool for, it's
overkill. A hand drill is almost as fast, and at the lower speeds, you don't
accidentally heat up and burn out the drills. And for REALLY accurate
drilling, you still cannot beat a hand drill. Normal twist drills, even with a
good center punch mark, drift slightly, and with a power driven drill, can do
so before you realize it and can correct it. Drilling by hand may be slow, but
it can avoid this. More to the point in the discussion of flex shafts and
dremels, though, are the other things people use these for. It's common to see
people trimming and shaping things with a moores disk or other small sanding
disk. They are fast and handy, to be sure. But if you need an accurate flat
surface or straight edge, these things just don't do it. Yet until you get to
the stage of trying to lap or polish that surface, it may not be apparent that
instead of a flat uniform sanded finish, you've got a bit of a dip with a bunch
of swirl marks. Sure, in commercial practice this gets done a lot, and often
the parts are small enough that it matters little and is easily corrected. But
if a beginner learns only this method, and never learns just how fast and
efficient a file or emery stick can also be (Something many pros can also
easily forget when they get wedded to their flex shafts), with more accurate
results and better control, then the power tool has done them no favors at
all. There is fast, and then there is fast and right. Sometimes what appears
to be the slower method actually will save time in the long run, by doing it
right.

If time is money, and one's in a hurry to get fast production, there may seem
to be never quite enough time to really do a job right, but somehow, there
manages to be enough time when you have to start over and completely redo the
thing because in your hurry, you didn't get it right in the first place.

In your statement above, "if two pieces are the same" is the key. If the
results really are the same, then the faster method is obviously better. But
there are reasons why tried and true methods are considered the right way.
Even though it can be slower seeming to work carefully and "right", often it
saves time in the long run by not having to do things over, or put up with a
job that's almost, but not quite, right. We see too much mediocrity in our
world. No sense adding to it.

Peter

"Peter W. Rowe" pwrowe@ixDOTnetcomDOTcom wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:46:05 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry
wrote:

You should only pull 1/7 of an acetylene tanks capacity or less, so you
do
not draw the acetone out of the tank.

Thanks, PIW, as well as thanks to Don, for pointing this out. It's
something I
didn't know. never too old or experienced to learn something new!

Also NEVER
turn the pressure higher than 15 PSI or BOOM. Acetylene can self ignite
over
15 PSI. (Two reasons I prefer propane. 3, propane is cheaper and 4
easier to
get. (OK 4 reasons))


But barring the mouth blown torch Abrasha recommended, or those needing a
separate compressed air supply, "Propane only" torches are much more
limited,
from what I've seen, than the air/acetylene types. Of course, if we want
to
get really picky, probably natural gas is even better than propane, both
for
cost, and certainly safety, since with natural gas, one doesn't need to
worry
about it's ability to "pool" in low spots if there's a leak, instead of
dissipating. Too bad that most non-commercial natural gas pressures are
too
low to properly run a decent torch. I did see, though, recently in a
ceramics
supply web site, a device one runs the low pressure type natural gas line
into, which boosts the pressure to allow things like torches, or in this
case,
gas fired kilns, to run properly. Don't recall the price...


*If*. Your gas hoses are LP rated you can interchange Acetylene and
Propane/Butane as fuel gas. There are some applications where I much prefer
Propane to Acetylene, one such is when I need to heat a very large piece
fairly quickly to allow a better job of soldering but lessen the risk of
melting through the piece. A 20# Propane tank ( the size used by most gas
"barbecues" ) has the proper threads to mount your "Acetylene" regulator and
will last a good long while. A Propane flame is harder to adjust than is an
Acetylene flame though because it is cleaner burning to start with and thus
doesn't have that tell-tale Acetylene "feather" when the flame is adjusted
fuel rich.

A not-so-long time ago more soldering was done with natural gas than any
other way. In Europe especially it was quite common to have gas from "the
mains" piped to the workshop and hooked up to the torch. These days it isn't
done so much. Not because another gas is necessarily better but because
there is an increased fire hazard and folks will file a Tort claim at the
drop of a hat.

--

Don Thompson

"The only stupid questions are those that should have been asked, but
weren't, or those that have been asked and answered over and over, but the
answers not listened to." Peter Rowe

I am WAY below the abilities of the regulars here in metal crafting, but
I sorta side with Abrasha on the tools. Of course I have both
files,sanding sticks,etc. AND a flexshaft. But I LOVE my my files. I
always seem to get into trouble with the flexshaft. You can slow it down
for drilling and use it for that. And if I'm WAY off on sawing (practice
your sawing - try old CD disks for practice) I might use the flexshaft
to get me a little closer to the line - files are THE BEST. I feel like
I'm crafting something. My barrette is 'DA BOMB'. You can improvise a
lot of tools too. Wooden blocks with different depressions for
raising/forming, ball peen hammers, heavy slabs of steel(antique 'irons'
turned upside down) pieces of softball bats for bracelet mandrels. There
are used tools around as well as inexpensive new tools. But if a task
demands 'the best' never feel bad about paying for it. Take good care of
it and a name brand unit will give decades of service and maintain much
of its value.
If yo have a Gem and Mineral Club or a Craft Guild in your area you may
be able to take lessons as well as find some used tools. There are also
video tapes and, of course, plentiful books around. There are 'retreat'
type schools (Wild Acres, William Holland, etc.) some Junior Colleges or
'continuing ed.' classes around too. On line tutorials and tips galore.
check www.ganoksin.com the archives are unparalleled!

MAN!
I want to go make a silver bracelet with one of my wife's fused pieces
after typing that!

Carl
1 Lucky Texan

Peter W. Rowe wrote:
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:46:05 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry
wrote:


You should only pull 1/7 of an acetylene tanks capacity or less, so you do
not draw the acetone out of the tank.


Thanks, PIW, as well as thanks to Don, for pointing this out. It's something I
didn't know. never too old or experienced to learn something new!


Also NEVER
turn the pressure higher than 15 PSI or BOOM. Acetylene can self ignite over
15 PSI. (Two reasons I prefer propane. 3, propane is cheaper and 4 easier to
get. (OK 4 reasons))



But barring the mouth blown torch Abrasha recommended, or those needing a
separate compressed air supply, "Propane only" torches are much more limited,
from what I've seen, than the air/acetylene types. Of course, if we want to
get really picky, probably natural gas is even better than propane, both for
cost, and certainly safety, since with natural gas, one doesn't need to worry
about it's ability to "pool" in low spots if there's a leak, instead of
dissipating. Too bad that most non-commercial natural gas pressures are too
low to properly run a decent torch. I did see, though, recently in a ceramics
supply web site, a device one runs the low pressure type natural gas line
into, which boosts the pressure to allow things like torches, or in this case,
gas fired kilns, to run properly. Don't recall the price...


As for hand drilling over a dremel, I just dont get why slower is thought to
be better. Time is money, and if two pieces are the same, what does it mater
how it was drilled or buffed?? It may or may not take more or less skill one
way or another, but new ways of doing things came about because they do the
job better and faster most of the time.


Well, slower is usually more precise, with less chance of things going wrong.
for simple drilling of holes, it's not hard to do accurately with a power tool
like a dremel or flex shaft. But if that's all you're using the tool for, it's
overkill. A hand drill is almost as fast, and at the lower speeds, you don't
accidentally heat up and burn out the drills. And for REALLY accurate
drilling, you still cannot beat a hand drill. Normal twist drills, even with a
good center punch mark, drift slightly, and with a power driven drill, can do
so before you realize it and can correct it. Drilling by hand may be slow, but
it can avoid this. More to the point in the discussion of flex shafts and
dremels, though, are the other things people use these for. It's common to see
people trimming and shaping things with a moores disk or other small sanding
disk. They are fast and handy, to be sure. But if you need an accurate flat
surface or straight edge, these things just don't do it. Yet until you get to
the stage of trying to lap or polish that surface, it may not be apparent that
instead of a flat uniform sanded finish, you've got a bit of a dip with a bunch
of swirl marks. Sure, in commercial practice this gets done a lot, and often
the parts are small enough that it matters little and is easily corrected. But
if a beginner learns only this method, and never learns just how fast and
efficient a file or emery stick can also be (Something many pros can also
easily forget when they get wedded to their flex shafts), with more accurate
results and better control, then the power tool has done them no favors at
all. There is fast, and then there is fast and right. Sometimes what appears
to be the slower method actually will save time in the long run, by doing it
right.

If time is money, and one's in a hurry to get fast production, there may seem
to be never quite enough time to really do a job right, but somehow, there
manages to be enough time when you have to start over and completely redo the
thing because in your hurry, you didn't get it right in the first place.

In your statement above, "if two pieces are the same" is the key. If the
results really are the same, then the faster method is obviously better. But
there are reasons why tried and true methods are considered the right way.
Even though it can be slower seeming to work carefully and "right", often it
saves time in the long run by not having to do things over, or put up with a
job that's almost, but not quite, right. We see too much mediocrity in our
world. No sense adding to it.

Peter


--
to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)

On 10-Feb-2004, Peter W. Rowe pwrowe@ixDOTnetcomDOTcom wrote:

But barring the mouth blown torch Abrasha recommended, or those needing a
separate compressed air supply, "Propane only" torches are much more
limited,
from what I've seen, than the air/acetylene types. Of course, if we want
to
get really picky, probably natural gas is even better than propane, both
for
cost, and certainly safety, since with natural gas, one doesn't need to
worry
about it's ability to "pool" in low spots if there's a leak, instead of
dissipating. Too bad that most non-commercial natural gas pressures are
too
low to properly run a decent torch. I did see, though, recently in a
ceramics
supply web site, a device one runs the low pressure type natural gas line
into, which boosts the pressure to allow things like torches, or in this
case,
gas fired kilns, to run properly. Don't recall the price...

Natural gas sucks...because delivery pressure is about 2psi on a "high
pressure tap" and 1/23 psi normal. IRC it has about 1/2 the BTU of propane.
Mapp gas really is king to me, hotter than propane and it is a liquid in the
bottle. I run my kiln and forges with propane.


If time is money, and one's in a hurry to get fast production, there may
seem
to be never quite enough time to really do a job right, but somehow, there
manages to be enough time when you have to start over and completely redo
the
thing because in your hurry, you didn't get it right in the first place.

In your statement above, "if two pieces are the same" is the key. If the
results really are the same, then the faster method is obviously better.
But
there are reasons why tried and true methods are considered the right way.
Even though it can be slower seeming to work carefully and "right", often
it
saves time in the long run by not having to do things over, or put up with
a
job that's almost, but not quite, right. We see too much mediocrity in
our
world. No sense adding to it.

Sometimes it is hard to think how others do, after 20 years in a job shop
with a boss standing behind me saying hurry up, you learn to do a good job
quickly!

Useing power tools is a two edge sword, you can do the work faster, and you
can also make scrap faster! So it does come down to the skill of the
operator.

One of the reasons I like making jewerly is there are no close tolorances,
however, finish is everything. This is the part I have to relearn, slow down
some so all the sanding marks are out, stones fit evenly, etc.

We see too much mediocrity in
our
world. No sense adding to it.

I agree, but it is tough to get paid for my time, when I dump 5 hours in a
pendent. Maybe when I get famous they will beat a path to the door.

Les

Carl 1 Lucky Texan wrote:

I am WAY below the abilities of the regulars here in metal crafting, but
I sorta side with Abrasha on the tools. Of course I have both
files,sanding sticks,etc. AND a flexshaft. But I LOVE my my files.
... - files are THE BEST. I feel like
I'm crafting something. My barrette is 'DA BOMB'.


I'm doing repair and ring re-sizing in a mall and (watch repair). I hang the
Foredom up every day cause it's stored on top of other stuff I need. Many are
the days I never actually plug it in. The #4 and #2 barrette and half-rounds
are my best friends.


... pieces of softball bats for bracelet mandrels.

Ooh! I like it.
--


If you try to 'reply' to me without fixing the dot, your reply
will go into a 'special' mailbox reserved for spam. See below.


--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me

If I had six hours to chop down a tree,
I'd spend the first four sharpening the axe.
- Abraham Lincoln

Carl West wrote:

Carl 1 Lucky Texan wrote:
... pieces of softball bats for bracelet mandrels.

Ooh! I like it.

I like it so much that when I stumbled across an aluminum bat in the trash, I
grabbed it.
I cut off the handle at the thinnest point (about a 12 according to my sizing
rings), poured it full of plaster for mass and capped it with epoxy. Haven't
used it yet.

It has a fairly tough plastic coating on it, we'll see how it stands up. I
don't plan to _forge_ against it but I expect it to be a happy thing for making
things circular again.

Thanks for the tip.


--


If you try to 'reply' to me without fixing the dot, your reply
will go into a 'special' mailbox reserved for spam. See below.


--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me

"Clutter"? This is an object-rich environment.