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#51
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~~~~And I'll disagree with both of you, although I respect and care
about you both. There are many, many worthwhile charities, religious based and secular who are coming to the aid of the people in Indonesia. I have not heard of one charity who is even considering the religion of the victim when dispensing aid.~~~~ What? ---Kathy, no one said otherwise. |
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#52
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~~~~Arondelle, exercising her right to disagree, decides that VJ is
wrong, and not so subtly talks about how it is prejudiced (or racist, I can't remember) to not give money to Islamic charities~~~ What? No she didn't. If you're going to write a lengthy argument, you need to research it better so you report the facts. |
#53
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~~~~Arondelle, exercising her right to disagree, decides that VJ is
wrong, and not so subtly talks about how it is prejudiced (or racist, I can't remember) to not give money to Islamic charities~~~ What? No she didn't. If you're going to write a lengthy argument, you need to research it better so you report the facts. |
#54
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Okay, Kathy, there are HUGE holes in your argument. Giant,
drive-a-Humvee-through-them gaping ragged holes. I'm out of here. It's degenerating into a muck. |
#55
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~~~~investigate before you commit, mostly.~~~~
Duh. True of any charitable giving, anytime. Never any question about that. |
#56
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Exactly how I feel, Kalera, thanks for saying this.
I have a zillion opinions, but I'm pretty much going to keep them to myself to keep from blowing up. -- Kandice Seeber Air & Earth Designs http://www.lampwork.net I have simply marked this thread as read because it is far too emotional to me; however, I wanted to give a big thanks to everyone who shares my belief that giving and helping just because you can is part of that which feeds our spirits. -- -Kalera http://www.beadwife.com http://www.snipurl.com/kebay |
#57
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Dr. Sooz wrote:
Kathy N-V wrote: ~~~~Arondelle, exercising her right to disagree, decides that VJ is wrong, and not so subtly talks about how it is prejudiced (or racist, I can't remember) to not give money to Islamic charities~~~ What? No she didn't. If you're going to write a lengthy argument, you need to research it better so you report the facts. What I said was: It is prejudiced to jump to the conclusion that Muslim charities are fronts for terrorist money laundering. Period. Arondelle -- ================================================== ========= To email me, empty the pond with a net |
#58
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On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 8:34:43 -0500, Arondelle wrote
(in message TLSBd.9088$1U6.5966@trnddc09): What I said was: It is prejudiced to jump to the conclusion that Muslim charities are fronts for terrorist money laundering. Period. I certainly read a lot more than that simple statement in your long postings, which I why I answered the way I did. I like and respect you, and do not want to get into an argument with you which could easily spin out of control, especially from my end. As Bob put it: hot flashes, Prednisone and intense pain: not a good combination for calm discussion. I will say that my point of view as a mom of a child nearing draft age makes me a lot less tolerant of the kind of nations we call friends. I strongly believe that the US has a lot of relationship repair to be done, but it isn't going to happen during this administration. But I also believe that a lot of the countries doing the loudest shouting should take a good look in the mirror themselves. Ineresting factoid: This morning's New York Times reports that Japan has now sprung into the lead as the largest donor nation to the disaster area, by upping their pledges to 500 million dollars. I wonder if all these figures include donations by private citizens as well as "official donations" by governments. I also discovered that many of the pledges announced by various world governments in the days following a disaster are never actually fulfilled. A good deal of money gets tied up politically. Some pledges require action on the part of the recipients before the money is released, and those actions never take place. It would be interesting to see how much of the billions being pledged actually ends up getting to the disaster area and helping the victims. (Betcha that precise figure doesn't get highly publicized, though) Kathy N-V |
#59
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Kathy N-V wrote:
know about the Christian terrorists as well. However, something no one ever mentions is that the US does not officially export terrorists to Islamic countries with the express purpose of killing those who do not share the official US faith. (We don't have one, Which government officially exports terrorists with the express purpose of killing those who do not share *their* official faith? I'm just curious, as your statement implies that someone does. -- -Kalera http://www.beadwife.com http://www.snipurl.com/kebay |
#60
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Kathy N-V wrote:
What you wrote doesn't actually seem to bear any relationship to the dispute. On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:45:01 -0500, Dr. Sooz wrote (in message .com): She's right. And I'll disagree with both of you, although I respect and care about you both. There are many, many worthwhile charities, religious based and secular who are coming to the aid of the people in Indonesia. I have not heard of one charity who is even considering the religion of the victim when dispensing aid. VJ (who has a kid going to that part of the world, and quite soon, too) posted a list of charities that the US Government says may be suspicious, and all are Islamic based. None of them are openly saying "We're the let's kill Americans charity," because that would be stupid, but it's possible, even likely that one or more of these Islamic based charities funds actions that kill Americans. As the mom of a person who would be right in the crosshairs, VJ asks that people think twice before giving money to such charities. (VJ's not saying "demonize Muslims," or saying "don't help the victims," but simply to think about which charity you prefer to use to transmit your donation) Arondelle, exercising her right to disagree, decides that VJ is wrong, and not so subtly talks about how it is prejudiced (or racist, I can't remember) to not give money to Islamic charities, because the people receiving aid "might be more comfortable getting it from their own faith." VJ feels attacked, other people jump in, and it ends with Arondelle pulling out the argument that "just because many terrorists are Islamic, not all Islamic people are terrorists." Well, duh - and we know about the Christian terrorists as well. However, something no one ever mentions is that the US does not officially export terrorists to Islamic countries with the express purpose of killing those who do not share the official US faith. (We don't have one, anyway. The majority of people here are at leat nominally Christian or Jewish, but we have no state religion) Something that the vast majority of Islamic countries are guilty of. Indonesia is officially friendly to the US, but is also locked in a civil war with a faction who is not at all friendly to the US, and the outcome of that war is certainly not a sure thing. Besides, Indonesia's brand of friendliness isn't exactly a what I'd expect of a friend. it's more like "less of an enemy than other places." (Or "we only hate the US a little bit these days") Over the past few days, there has been a real discussion of charity: who gets it and why, the responsibilities of the givers, and where else they might be spending money. The fact is that the US gives more, in total dollars to overseas charity than any other donor nation. It used to be Japan, but with the implosion of their economy, that has changed. (With the state of the US economy, it may well change here, too) We give very little in terms of our GDP, while some other countries (most vocally Norway), give much larger portions of their GDP, although the actual dollar figures are dwarfed by the amounts given by the US. What no one has mentioned is the responsibility of the recipients. The Indonesian Minster of Tourism announced today that fewer than 10% of all the resorts in the Phucket area were damaged in any way, and that "Indonesia is open for tourist business." Indeed, many European tourists (the backbone of the area economy) are returning for vacations, and many aren't noticing anything wrong. Most likely, this is because the Indonesian government has cleaned up the tourist areas first. One thing that shocked me was that this same Minister said that even without foreign aid, only 0.3% of Indonesia's tourist dollars would be lost because of the tsunami. It stands to reason then, that once foreign aid is counted, that Indonesia, at least, will make money on this horrific tragedy. Compare that to say, Florida, who saw four tremendous hurricanes in one season. I heard of no foreign aid dollars flowing into the US because of those natural disasters. (The loss of life between the two places is incomparable - the US had a warning system that saved countless lives. The Tsunami area did not) Arondelle mentioned that the people receiving aid "might be more comfortable getting it from their own faith." I'll come right out and say, Tough! I think it's a GOOD thing that these Islamic people aren't receiving all their aid from Islamic charities, and an even better thing that the people see that some of their aid is coming from Christians, Jews and even the hated US. If that makes them a little uncomfortable, and makes them question the "news stories" that are broadcast on Al Jazeera every day - Good! (Though I'm sure that the stories will be twisted in some hideous way regardless - a bad peanut butter sandwich will become "chemical warfare" by the time it is broadcast.) Americans are not demons, and the fact that rank and file Americans have given far more than the disaster areas can even absorb tells a lot about us as a people. I'm quite sure that many people here on RCB gave, even people whose religious beliefs strongly conflict with those of Islam. Because it's the right thing to do. Because even all people of conscience see that suffering does not follow religious boundries. It's not a popular stance to take, but being a Christian, a Jew or an American does not automatically make you a bad guy. If there were a charity that was even remotely suspected of funding a "lets kill Manda fund," you would be right in thinking that I would be shouting "Don't give these people money!" from the rooftops. Why is what VJ doing anything different than that? Especially when there are loads of charities who are under no such suspicion, and most have much better records of giving high percentages of money to victims and using minimal amounts of donations as "overhead"? Now, for the responsibilities of those receiving aid: No one expects or wants groveling, and anyone who does expect groveling is giving for a lousy reason. But most people who give do expect that the recipients to use the resources well, not to waste aid unnecessarily (although I think most people realize that some aid will be wasted, at least until infrastructure is back in place) and to show a modicum of gratitude (even if not overt), and to think reasonably well of the giver. People don't like to have their gifts ignored or rubbed back in their faces, and they would like to think that if the givers needed help that they would be helped in return. Unfortunately, Americans have become accustomed to just that kind of response to their generosity. The main side effect of being universally hated is that giving foreign aid has become politically unpopular in the US. As Americans see their employment base move overseas and their standards of living continue to erode, they are even less likely to want to give money to people who, rightly or wrongly, are perceived as already benefitting from American jobs. I personally give a lot, both to individuals and to charities. Most of my thoughts on givers and recipients is based on my personal experience. I know that there are some people that don't even bother to acknowledge my gift, not even to say that they received it. (Sometimes I only know that my gift was received becasue my Paypal balance went down. That stings) There are others who want to pay me back in some way, even though I am always up front in saying that I never want repayment - just help someone else who needs it down the line. I've even had people cut off all contact entirely with me once they received what they wanted; I can't even begin to fathom the rationalization behind that. So yeah, I have my own agenda when deciding on charity. I read a lot of opinions from a lot of different places, and watch/read the news from many viewpoints. I've traveled many places and had people tell me that I can't be an American, because I'm too nice. I get looks of disbelief when I tell people everywhere that I am about as average as they come. To me, it is no mystery why a people who pay 1/3 of their incomes to taxes, a major portion of which is spent overseas, is not thrilled to be called selfish, cheap or evil. I think it is a real statement about the goodness of ordinary American people that they are willing to put aside all the insults and the fear for their own children to dig deep and give their hard earned money to help people through a horrendous natural disaster. Even though some of those people would gladly take the money and then kill the givers. Don't believe me? Well, a chunk of money is going to Somalia, whose "victims" dragged the bodies of American servicemen through the streets of Mogadishu. Just my two cents, and I know it's not going to be a popular opinion, Kathy N-V -- -Kalera http://www.beadwife.com http://www.snipurl.com/kebay |
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