Diamond advice needed

Hello everyone,

I'm new to both the world of diamonds as well as this newsgroup. I'd
like to get your opinions on how much the following *loose* diamond
should cost...

- 0.55 carat, round brilliant cut, VS1, G Color, Excellent symmetry
(displays hearts and arrows), excellent polish, no flourescence, good
proportions, with GIA grading report/laser inscription. It also has
the additional inscription of "Hearts and Arrows." I am assuming that
it is an untreated diamond (the grading report doesn't mention anything
about treatment/enhancement).

I've seen the above diamond offered for $3000 Cdn. (about $2300 U.S.?)
which strikes me as a good deal. Could this make a turnover/profit if
I re-sold it in U.K.?

Also, any tips about buying diamonds in China/India which would re-sell
well in the U.K.?

Your answers and suggestions would be most welcome. (you can forward me
your responses to my e-mail address as well).

Thanks in advance,

Abu Deedat

A few tips before you get too heavily into your career as an
international diamond dealer.
1) Learn a hell of alot more about the subject.
2) Your compitition are dealers who have family buying connections
going back for generations.
3) You better have serious money behind you.
4) If you have to ask the questions you just did, see tip one.

Mukherjee wrote:
Hello everyone,

I'm new to both the world of diamonds as well as this newsgroup. I'd
like to get your opinions on how much the following *loose* diamond
should cost...

- 0.55 carat, round brilliant cut, VS1, G Color, Excellent symmetry
(displays hearts and arrows), excellent polish, no flourescence, good
proportions, with GIA grading report/laser inscription. It also has
the additional inscription of "Hearts and Arrows." I am assuming that
it is an untreated diamond (the grading report doesn't mention anything
about treatment/enhancement).

I've seen the above diamond offered for $3000 Cdn. (about $2300 U.S.?)
which strikes me as a good deal. Could this make a turnover/profit if
I re-sold it in U.K.?

Also, any tips about buying diamonds in China/India which would re-sell
well in the U.K.?

Your answers and suggestions would be most welcome. (you can forward me
your responses to my e-mail address as well).

Thanks in advance,

Abu Deedat

for a retailer buyer to resell, that's not a good deal.
for the consumer, it's a decent price at best - it can be beaten elsewhere
easily though.





"Mukherjee" wrote in message
...
Hello everyone,

I'm new to both the world of diamonds as well as this newsgroup. I'd
like to get your opinions on how much the following *loose* diamond
should cost...

- 0.55 carat, round brilliant cut, VS1, G Color, Excellent symmetry
(displays hearts and arrows), excellent polish, no flourescence, good
proportions, with GIA grading report/laser inscription. It also has
the additional inscription of "Hearts and Arrows." I am assuming that
it is an untreated diamond (the grading report doesn't mention anything
about treatment/enhancement).

I've seen the above diamond offered for $3000 Cdn. (about $2300 U.S.?)
which strikes me as a good deal. Could this make a turnover/profit if
I re-sold it in U.K.?

Also, any tips about buying diamonds in China/India which would re-sell
well in the U.K.?

Your answers and suggestions would be most welcome. (you can forward me
your responses to my e-mail address as well).

Thanks in advance,

Abu Deedat

Mukherjee wrote:


Also, any tips about buying diamonds in China/India which would re-sell
well in the U.K.?


Anyone looking for tips on buying diamonds in a Usenet newsgroup can only be
thought of as a fool.

The best tip I can give you is ... DON'T!

You are not ready to buy or sell diamonds from or to anyone, anywhere. You are
only ready to lose money, a lot of it.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

First of all-- thanks for the warning. I understand that there are
various scams and things like that out there. I don't pretend to be an
expert, but here is what I've done so far to learn about diamonds:
I've read "How to Buy a Diamond" by Renee Newman twice, I walk into
just about any jewellery store I come across to take a look at the
half-carat diamonds under a 10x loupe/microscope. So I'm familiarizing
myself with what a good proportionate round brilliant should look like.
I'm also looking at their grading reports and familiarizing myself
with what an authentic report should look like, what the reputable
grading labs are, and looking at the laser inscriptions on diamonds to
verify that it matches the ones on the certificate. And for an
*additional* opportunity to learn, I'm also browsing diamond websites
and asking questions on this newsgroup.

All of this doesn't make me a professional, but then I'm not intending
to become a professional "international dealer" or to buy suitcases
full of diamonds. I just want to buy a couple of half-carat diamonds
while traveling and see if it can re-sell for anything worthwhile. And
I have talked to someone who's done it in the past and already gotten
his (rather limited) advice.

So rather than just dismissing me as a fool, it would be more helpful
if you gave me some practical advice or answers. For one, what is it
about my question that makes you think I'm an idiot or that I'm
ill-prepared to make a purchase? I'd honestly like to know, so that I
can start remedying the deficiency in my knowledge *before* I make a
purchase rather than *after* it. Was it my description of the diamond
I saw (did I leave out some major part of the description; or did I
include something irrelevent?), was it my statement that I thought it
was a good price, or was it my general question about the possibility
of privately re-selling a diamond from Asia in Europe?

Maybe I'm a dumb newbie, but you can flex your experience and wisdom
better by sharing some practical and specific advice with me... believe
me, I would really appreciate that. At the same time, I will not be
spending thousands relying exclusively on the advice of someone on a
Usenet group.

- Abu Deedat

On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 02:35:28 -0700, in hõ "Mukherjee"
wrote:


First of all-- thanks for the warning. I understand that there are
various scams and things like that out there. I don't pretend to be an
expert, but here is what I've done so far to learn about diamonds:
I've read "How to Buy a Diamond" by Renee Newman twice,

So, for starters, put down the book intended for total newbie retail buyers, and
instead, find a good diamond book intended for professionals. A couple
suggestions: :

"Diamond Grading ABC: Handbook of Diamond Grading" ,
Verena Pagel-Theisen, 2000.

Eric Bruton's "Diamonds", if you can find it. And there are more.

But consumer level buying guides just won't give you the detail. You need to be
able, if you're buying gems, to understand and see the differences that determine
one grade of color or clarity from an adjacent one. And you need a thorough
understanding of diamond proportion grading (a complex, sometimes difficult issue,
and something you can NOT determine accurately from most diamond grading reports
and certs)

Peruse the GIA bookstore, to be found at the GIA web site (www.gia.edu)

Better yet, take the GIA diamonds and diamond grading courses, or equivalent ones
from the Gemmological society of Great Britain. These will still not prepare you
to become a diamond dealer or wholesale buyer, but at least you'll come away with
a decently complete understanding of the factors that determine value.

Oh, and while your at it, familiarize yourself thoroughly with the characteristics
of synthetic diamonds. These are rapidaly coming onto the market, and the areas
you propose to shop for diamonds are those where you're most likely to be sold
synthetics as natural.

I walk into
just about any jewellery store I come across to take a look at the
half-carat diamonds under a 10x loupe/microscope. So I'm familiarizing
myself with what a good proportionate round brilliant should look like.

Oh? how do you know? Don't tell me you're trusting the average retail store
sales person to be an expert? Some few are. most are not.

I'm also looking at their grading reports and familiarizing myself
with what an authentic report should look like, what the reputable
grading labs are, and looking at the laser inscriptions on diamonds to
verify that it matches the ones on the certificate. And for an
*additional* opportunity to learn, I'm also browsing diamond websites
and asking questions on this newsgroup.

All of this doesn't make me a professional, but then I'm not intending
to become a professional "international dealer" or to buy suitcases
full of diamonds. I just want to buy a couple of half-carat diamonds
while traveling and see if it can re-sell for anything worthwhile. And
I have talked to someone who's done it in the past and already gotten
his (rather limited) advice.


The big problem I see with your plan is that China is not a source country, nor a
major cutting processing country, for diamonds. India is a source mostly for
lower quality, both the gems, and the cutting. And, even if you can, by some
chance (highly unlikely) locate the actual wholesale level dealers of diamonds,
they'll see you coming from a mile or two away. Guess what that will do to the
prices, and their honesty regarding the goods, if they even agree to talk to you
or sell to you at all. You likely would have better luck shopping in the major
cutting and trading centers that produce well cut, good quality, diamonds. That
means places like antwerp, Tel Aviv, New York, and some areas of Russia you'll not
likely be able to get anywhere near.

You have to understand that diamonds, worldwide, are simply not an open market
available to anyone. You need introductions, a reputation, documented substantial
amounts of money (and I'm not talking a few tens of thousands here.) These
markets will generally only talk to you or even let you near them if they KNOW
you're already deeply connected with the diamond trade. They don't want the
public anywhere near them, and so far, you're still the public.

Frankly, you'd have a LOT better luck with almost any of the colored stone
markets. Unlike the highly organized diamond market, the colored stone market is
filled with small scale buyers and dealers. With persistance, some cash, a good
gemological knowledge base, and a smile, you can often find your way into the
colored stone sources, even to the mine level in many parts of the world. I know
of NO small scale diamond dealers who sucessfully manage to buy in the way you
propose, but I DO know quite a number of people who've done exactly as you wish,
only with colored stones. It's a totally different market structure, ruled by
free enterprise and market forces and cash, not by a mega monopolistic
corporation.

Peter Rowe

Mukherjee wrote:

I've read "How to Buy a Diamond" by Renee Newman twice,

Reading a GIA publication about diamonds would get you a lot farther. Read
something that is geared to professionals, not consumers.
--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Mukherjee wrote:
SNIP
All of this doesn't make me a professional, but then I'm not intending
to become a professional "international dealer" or to buy suitcases
full of diamonds. I just want to buy a couple of half-carat diamonds
while traveling and see if it can re-sell for anything worthwhile. And
I have talked to someone who's done it in the past and already gotten
his (rather limited) advice.

So rather than just dismissing me as a fool, it would be more helpful
if you gave me some practical advice or answers.
SNIP

You've already been given the most practical advice: Don't.
The second best advice is to prepare to spend years learning what you're
doing and to lose a lot of money in the process.

For one, what is it
about my question that makes you think I'm an idiot or that I'm
ill-prepared to make a purchase?

Diamond buying for re-sale, even on a onesies-twosies basis is like
trying to play in the World Series of Poker. Everyone you're dealing
with is an expert and almost all of them have made their little corner
of the diamond trade their life's work.

Your problem isn't so much frauds of various sorts (although that can be
a problem), your problem is that everyone you'll be dealing with is so
much more knowledgeable than you are. It isn't just a matter of being
able to judge the quality of the stones, it's also understanding the
customs and practices of an extremely insular industry, knowing the
markets intimately, being familiar with things like customs and
insurance and all the other myriad details that go into buying and
selling stones at anything other than a loss.

Now you can learn all that. But the way you learn it is by doing it --
and losing money on transaction after transaction. Either that or
serving an apprenticeship with an experienced diamond trader.


If you absolutely insist on doing this, my best advice is to become
throughly familar with the
Customs and import/export regulations for the various countries you will
be dealing with. Understand what documentation is required and how the
process is handled. If you get this right you can at least stay out of
jail while you're trying to learn.

--RC

"Mukherjee" wrote in message
...

First of all-- thanks for the warning. I understand that there are
various scams and things like that out there. I don't pretend to be an
expert, but here is what I've done so far to learn about diamonds:
I've read "How to Buy a Diamond" by Renee Newman twice,

Well done.

I know a lady who is training to be a diamond dealer for a major trade
outlet.

She has worked for them in their precious stone department for three years
now.

She's done a year of the formal training as a gemmologist, she only has two
more years training to do. She's passed the formal diamond grader's
examination.

She's not happy with her own skills yet, and she handles more diamonds than
most of us ever get to see.

Last time I met her she was fuming, she'd got fooled by a synthetic she
hadn't seen before.

Reading a book, even reading it twice, isn't enough.

Buying precious stones from sources that aren't absolutely solid is a game
for experts, and I don't mean someone who's read a book and seen a few
stones, I mean someone who has studied formally and done it for years.

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea

So rather than just dismissing me as a fool, it would be more helpful
if you gave me some practical advice or answers. For one, what is it
about my question that makes you think I'm an idiot or that I'm
ill-prepared to make a purchase? I'd honestly like to know, so that I
can start remedying the deficiency in my knowledge *before* I make a
purchase rather than *after* it.

Everyone gave you practical advice. You just chose not to listen
because it was not what you wanted to hear. Here's how I broke down
your letter and came to the conclusions I did.

I'm new to both the world of diamonds as well as this newsgroup.

This told me most of what I needed to know right off the bat. The
world of diamond buying is a very insular society. You aren't a part of
it and are not going to become a part of it buying a few stones here
and there. I know people who have been in the business for 30 or 40
years who are still working to better their relationships/contacts in
order to get better prices. These are people who buy 1 million dollars
+ in diamonds a year. I thought the world series of poker analogy was a
fairly good one except that they can just luck into a win. That won't
happen in the diamond industry.

I'd
like to get your opinions on how much the following *loose* diamond
should cost...

This told me the rest of what I needed to know. There are a number
of "costs" in the diamond business. Theres the retail cost (which is
the cost here), theres the ACTUAL wholesale cost (which you'll probably
never see), theres the cost of buying rough (which you'll also never
see), and a number of other "costs" including the cost difference
between buying from a store front vs the internet. These costs can even
vary considerably between the source and different venders. Oh......and
there really isnt any way to give an accurate value to a stone without
actually seeing it. Asking us to appraise a stone we have never seen
was a huge giveaway that you had no clue.

- 0.55 carat, round brilliant cut, VS1, G Color, Excellent symmetry
(displays hearts and arrows), excellent polish, no flourescence, good
proportions, with GIA grading report/laser inscription. It also has
the additional inscription of "Hearts and Arrows." I am assuming that
it is an untreated diamond (the grading report doesn't mention anything
about treatment/enhancement).

You can lose alot of money by going only by a GIA cert. They're
nice for a starter to get you in the ball park of what you are looking
for but theres plenty they don't say also. Your assumptions about
treatment can cost you lots of money too. How do you know the stone
wasn't treated after the cert was made? Treatments are one of the many
things you'll need to learn to detect if you dont want to lose your
shirt.

I've seen the above diamond offered for $3000 Cdn. (about $2300 U.S.?)
which strikes me as a good deal. Could this make a turnover/profit if
I re-sold it in U.K.?

You are going to buy a diamond because it "strikes you as a good
deal"? Wow. You are going to take our word for it that its a good or
bad deal? Wow. Just out of curiosity, who are you planning to sell them
to? You do have buyers lined up don't you? That is a fairly large part
of this whole equation.

Also, any tips about buying diamonds in China/India which would re-sell
well in the U.K.?

I had to chuckle at this part. Why are you buying diamonds from
China? Or India for that matter (at least you can get drek from there).

Your answers and suggestions would be most welcome. (you can forward me
your responses to my e-mail address as well).

Hmmmmmmmmm..........they didnt feel welcomed. Anyway, practical
advice (assuming you havent given up yet). Take a GIA diamond grading
course, or better yet as Peter suggested, take the colored stone
course. Same potential for having your ass handed to you but you will
actually be able to deal with people much closer to the source of those
stones. You CAN get deals there if you know what you are doing.
If you're determined to stick with diamonds, I've had aquaintances
who have made alot of money buying diamonds from private sources
(individuals, pawn shops, etc) and reselling them. Again, you really
have to know what you are doing because it's really easy to get taken.
If you plan on making any money at it you will also need to buy alot
and become known as someone who has a good selection so you will get
calls when someone needs a particular diamond. LOTS of money. LOTS of
training. LOTS of chance no-one will even deal with you. LOTS of
potential to lose LOTS of money. Hmmmmmmmmmm.........wasn't that the
gist of my first post?