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Mokume Gane materials question
Hi all! I'm new here. I want to make some Mokume Gane for a project I'm
working on right now and was thinking of using copper and stirling silver. Is this a workable combination? I read somthing that said annealing stirling silver too many times will cause it to get brittle through alloy losses? What I want to do with it is heat, hammer and fold it a few times. Now I have pretty good idea of the mechanics of the bonding of metals but not sure of how these materials will behave in this application and I'd rather not waste material as pricey as silver in dumb experimenting ;-) I'm doing research on the subject before I go spending the money but I never overlook the value of newsgroups as a resource. Next question is about the "pickle" mentioned for cleaning up silver. What is it usually made of? Thanks up front for your patience and input! GA |
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#2
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Hi GA
Silver and copper are quite easy to bond. There are different techniques for mokume and I suggest getting hold of Steve Midgett's book "Mokume Gane A Comprehensive Study" to see what suits you. If you are using a forge (I think I recognise your name from the blacksmithing group) you might want to follow Robert Coogan's technique covered in the book. It is a little different from steel, you tend to bond all the sheets together first rather than hammer and fold. If you want to go the electric kiln way take a look at James Binnions website www.mokumegane.com Steve Midgett also has a website www.mokume.com Chris |
#3
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I use fine silver and copper. I'm sure stirling is fine also, or even coin
silver. I have used pure nickel before, but it is just too dang tough. Les |
#4
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On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 05:43:29 GMT, "Greyangel"
wrote: Hi all! I'm new here. I want to make some Mokume Gane for a project I'm working on right now and was thinking of using copper and stirling silver. Is this a workable combination? I read somthing that said annealing stirling silver too many times will cause it to get brittle through alloy losses? What I want to do with it is heat, hammer and fold it a few times. Now I have pretty good idea of the mechanics of the bonding of metals but not sure of how these materials will behave in this application and I'd rather not waste material as pricey as silver in dumb experimenting ;-) I'm doing research on the subject before I go spending the money but I never overlook the value of newsgroups as a resource. Next question is about the "pickle" mentioned for cleaning up silver. What is it usually made of? Thanks up front for your patience and input! GA Unlike iron, nonferrous mokume does not work as well with the heat hammer and fold. The surface of the metals are prone to oxidation and the normal process is to occlude the oxygen as much as possible by having very close fits between the metals being bonded and heating them in a reducing atmosphere. The most efficient way is to put all your layers together at once and clamp them. Take a look at; http://www.mokume-gane.com/Papers/SantaFePaper.pdf I was an undergrad grunt at SIU when we developed "torque plate" clamping. As far as I know it is still the best way. As far as the silver, each has it's advantages and disadvantages. Sterling will bond just fine, But it is hot short. If you are going to do a lot of hot forging, you have to be very careful about your temps. It will forge just fine at a black heat, but when it becomes incandescent, it goes through a very wacky phase change and loses all structural strength. It certainly won't work for heat and fold welding. Fine silver does not have this phase change and hot forges just fine. It also resists oxidation and is much more forgiving in the welding stage. However, particularly at red heat, it is much softer than the copper and tends to squeeze out between the layers of copper. This does not weaken it's bond, but you must constantly keep the edge of your billet trimmed to keep from letting the edges fold over. Safety pickle is a solution of water and sodium bisulfate. There is a product sold to the jewelry trades called Sparex. But it is cheaper to go down to the hardware store and by dry granulated pool acid. It is the same stuff. Don't by liquid pool acid, that is hydrochloric acid. it will disolve your copper. Paul K. Dickman |
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Hi Chris! Thanks for the book reference I'll see if I can get ahold of it.
Yeah ;-) you nailed me on the blacksmith group. I'm a steel pounder and knife maker (though hardly proficient yet). Since I'm more interested knives and swords as artwork it was a no brainer that I'd end up here too ;-) I have a gas forge that I was hoping to use for the hot work. figured on using stainless foil to keep the oxidation down and copper layers at the outside so I can grind off any roughage and oxidized material without wasting the more expensive material. I'd rather do a draw and fold if I can get away with it since that will get me the patterning that I'm hoping for. Does require beating up the metal quite a bit more and as yet I'm not sure of how much I can get away with. I'm assuming as long as I keep a good control of the temperture it should be ok? I've got a back burner plan to build an electric oven for doing really precise heat treating but that's for later. I've gotten reasonably proficient at controlling the tempertures in my gas forge though it's nothing like digital control. I spent some time learning what different tempertures "looked like" by guaging phase change and melting points of different materials. Anyway I'll have a look at the sites you posted and do some reading. Thanks! GA "Chris Hackett" wrote in message ... Hi GA Silver and copper are quite easy to bond. There are different techniques for mokume and I suggest getting hold of Steve Midgett's book "Mokume Gane A Comprehensive Study" to see what suits you. If you are using a forge (I think I recognise your name from the blacksmithing group) you might want to follow Robert Coogan's technique covered in the book. It is a little different from steel, you tend to bond all the sheets together first rather than hammer and fold. If you want to go the electric kiln way take a look at James Binnions website www.mokumegane.com Steve Midgett also has a website www.mokume.com Chris |
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wrote in message
... I use fine silver and copper. I'm sure stirling is fine also, or even coin silver. I have used pure nickel before, but it is just too dang tough. Les One of the gotchas in the stirling silver is a lower melting point. Wilst "shopping" on the web for material that met specs (and price) I was looking for I pretty much decided on a company called Hoover and Strong. Anybody have opinions or experience dealing with them? Better suggestions? GA |
#7
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vj found this in rec.crafts.jewelry, from "Greyangel"
: ]Hoover and Strong. Anybody ]have opinions or experience dealing with them? Better suggestions? that's who Oran has dealt with. it's who i sent my father's coin silver to, to be refined. no problems. excellent service. -- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books) http://www.booksnbytes.com (Jewelry) http://www.vickijean.com (Metalsmithing) http://www.snugglewench.com [it's a Callahan's thing] ----------- vj -- pounds metal, mother of three "Js", lives in Paradise,* and is generally considered a smarta$$. Yahoo ID: *vjean95967 |
#8
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vj found this in rec.crafts.jewelry, from :
sterling ]But it is hot short. no kidding! ]Fine silver does not have this phase change and hot forges just fine. so i would have fewer problems soldering fine silver wire, but lose the strength in doing so? -- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books) http://www.booksnbytes.com (Jewelry) http://www.vickijean.com (Metalsmithing) http://www.snugglewench.com [it's a Callahan's thing] ----------- vj -- pounds metal, mother of three "Js", lives in Paradise,* and is generally considered a smarta$$. Yahoo ID: *vjean95967 |
#9
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I buy silver buillion(sp) on ebay.
Les On 12-Mar-2005, "Greyangel" wrote: One of the gotchas in the stirling silver is a lower melting point. Wilst "shopping" on the web for material that met specs (and price) I was looking for I pretty much decided on a company called Hoover and Strong. Anybody have opinions or experience dealing with them? Better suggestions? GA |
#10
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From everything I've heard, ebay is a great thing for a lot of people but
simply viewing the site will hose up my computer and frankly if I want a flea market I'll go to one. If I have to do online shopping it's going to be with stable sources. Yeah I know the ebay folks are moderators of a sort to insure sound business practices but I still don't trust it. GA wrote in message ... I buy silver buillion(sp) on ebay. Les On 12-Mar-2005, "Greyangel" wrote: One of the gotchas in the stirling silver is a lower melting point. Wilst "shopping" on the web for material that met specs (and price) I was looking for I pretty much decided on a company called Hoover and Strong. Anybody have opinions or experience dealing with them? Better suggestions? GA |
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