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#11
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Ebay Diamonds
William Black wrote:
"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message ... Pass them through an international border (by post or in your pocket) you stand a chance of getting them impounded. Oh? Not likely. At least not at the consumer level or with cut stones. British Customs (I'm not sure what the agency is called this week) has just bought a very clever device for telling the origin of diamonds by some sort clever test, probably crystalography of some kind. Bull****! -- Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
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#12
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Ebay Diamonds
William Black wrote:
"papa smurf" wrote in message ... Hello All, I am in the market for loose diamonds. I have been to several stores in my area, but recently decided to look at how diamonds are selling on E-Bay. From what auctions I have found, diamonds sell considerably less on E-Bay. I am interested in purchasing diamonds on E-Bay; however, my dilemma is the following: 1. I feel uncomfortable making such an expensive purchase over a wire without seeing my product first. 2. I worry that I=92m getting scammed. 3. I wonder if I truly am getting the best deal. 4. I=92m not sure what probing questions to ask for my protection. Can anyone offer good suggestions as to how I can protect myself while making such a large purchase? I would also love to hear from folks who have actually purchased diamonds on e-bay. I appreciate your advice and time! Diamonds without a certificate of origin these days may be 'blood diamonds'. Very small chance. Besides, even if the stone comes with a "certificate" stating that it is not a "conflict diamond" (That is the correct term. You seem to get your knowledge from Hollywood), it is no guarantee, that it is actually a conflict free diamond. Pass them through an international border (by post or in your pocket) you stand a chance of getting them impounded. What makes you think he wants to "pass then through an international border" (are there any other borders?). Most likely he wants to buy a stone that has already been imported. These days the diamond investment market is plunging like a stone. It's an artificial market that has a very limited lifetime now that everyone has realised that it's a cartel cheating them. There is no cheating. However deBeers is very upfront about the fact, that they control diamond prices very strictly and successfully. I strongly suggest you inform yourself a bit more about the diamond trade, it's history and it's complexities Buy rubies, you can't fake them or manufacture them. Oh yes you can. This has been done quite successfully. People get cheated in Thailand on a daily basis. Even professional jewelry buyers. -- Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#13
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Ebay Diamonds
Heinrich Butschal wrote:
papa smurf schrieb: Hello All, I am in the market for loose diamonds. I have been to several stores in my area, but recently decided to look at how diamonds are selling on E-Bay. From what auctions I have found, diamonds sell considerably less on E-Bay. I am interested in purchasing diamonds on E-Bay; however, my dilemma is the following: 1. I feel uncomfortable making such an expensive purchase over a wire without seeing my product first. This won't help. Especially if You are not a diamond expert you can't fix the quality and the worth of the diamond by yourself. 2. I worry that I'm getting scammed. 3. I wonder if I truly am getting the best deal. If You will buy cheap the risk is higher that You will get a banana. In the US it's called a "lemon" So it is better to buy in a store witch is well known and I do not agree. Buying from a "store" is always more expensive, since you will have to pay part of their overhead, i.e. rent, insurance, etc. eg. a company of good standing. They won't cheat You. I beg to differ. Some of the biggest swindles have been perpetrated by "companies in good standing". http://www.2bangkok.com/2bangkok/Scams/sapp10.shtml http://www.gemsny.com/guide/top-10-d...elry-business/ And, ... remember Enron (albeit not a jewelry company) 4. I'm not sure what probing questions to ask for my protection. Can anyone offer good suggestions as to how I can protect myself while making such a large purchase? I would also love to hear from folks who have actually purchased diamonds on e-bay. I appreciate your advice and time! Look here for diamanonds wich are second hand ans so far not too expensive. http://www.schmuck-boerse.com/index-...-diamant-2.htm Dude, the guy posting is most likely from the US. Do you really think it is useful to offer him a place to buy a stone from Germany, when he has just told you that he is not comfortable buying anything he can't see ?!? -- Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#14
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Ebay Diamonds
Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:52:20 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "William Black" wrote: British Customs (I'm not sure what the agency is called this week) has just bought a very clever device for telling the origin of diamonds by some sort clever test, probably crystalography of some kind. Very costly machines. They detect very slight differences in the various impurities in the crystals, which tend to vary based on location. Even then, however, it seldom can proove origin, only suggest it, as there's significant overlap in these properties from one location to another. They can, for example, take some stones and know for certain that they did not come from Sierro leone (one of the biggest problem areas), but the machine can't say this for certain for all locations, especially stones from other parts of africa with similar geology. And then there are the stones from Sierra Leone that happen to be legal. Perhaps mined legally before the war, or since, etc. etc. No separation there. And some stones, both blook diamonds and not, will simply not give any definative reading on the machine. It's a better test than nothing, but a long way from being even close to perfect. So far, the only real solution has been requiring importers, cutters, dealers, to maintain a paper trail showing the origin of the stones. But I've yet to see a retail store offering retail customers any paperwork that verifiably continues this paper trail, so consumers are left hanging. And dishonest dealers have been known to forge paperwork. I gather that if you're even wearing too much expensive looking jewellery they get to play with it. Shipments of diamonds all get to go through it... Shipments are probably less of a problem, since the likelyhood of proper paperwork and documentation is higher. Such documentation is not likely with finished jewelery, and even then, the testing may be not very meaningful. Even if diamonds are suspected of being originally from Sierra Leone or other conflict areas, there's no way to tell when they were mined, or if legally. You could have a fine diamond necklace, purchased legally in Hong Cong, with paperwork claiming conflict free diamonds, which are in fact bloody as hell, but if properly declared at customs, this would be legal. no grounds to confiscate it. Or another similar necklace, except from Harry Winston made in 1955, also with stones from Seirra Leone that the machine might yell about, yet it too is legal and the diamonds were not in a conflict then. All in all, lots of problems with such test. But at least, smugglers don't always know this. The real testers are likely to remain the customs officers themselves, looking for things being brought across that they can prove are illegal, or when smugglers, thinking themselves caught, will give away clues as to their activity. I keep looking for these synthetic stones here in the UK, but, as I've said before here, so far nobody seems to be interested in supplying them to jewellers in small quantities. In part, they're simply not available even in large quantities. Don't feel excluded. Gemesys, the main manufacturer of the nice yellow synthetics, is not able to make anywhere near as much as they could sell, so they hardly need to look for new distributors, either large or small. Then I must have misheard the chap at one gem supplier. Look for Chatham ruby, Tom Chatham's (http://www.chatham.com/clippings/c95-1.html) office is here in San Francisco, one block from my studio. He makes nice Emeralds too. -- Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#15
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Ebay Diamonds
Abrasha schrieb:
Heinrich Butschal wrote: papa smurf schrieb: Hello All, I am in the market for loose diamonds. I have been to several stores in my area, but recently decided to look at how diamonds are selling on E-Bay. From what auctions I have found, diamonds sell considerably less on E-Bay. I am interested in purchasing diamonds on E-Bay; however, my dilemma is the following: 1. I feel uncomfortable making such an expensive purchase over a wire without seeing my product first. This won't help. Especially if You are not a diamond expert you can't fix the quality and the worth of the diamond by yourself. 2. I worry that I'm getting scammed. 3. I wonder if I truly am getting the best deal. If You will buy cheap the risk is higher that You will get a banana. In the US it's called a "lemon" In Germany we call it also "mit Zirtonen gehandelt" that is meant: dealed with lemons, if a business was bad. :-) So it is better to buy in a store witch is well known and I do not agree. Buying from a "store" is always more expensive, since you will have to pay part of their overhead, i.e. rent, insurance, etc. Shure, however, they have due to theis bigger turnover, better conditions with the wholesalers. eg. a company of good standing. They won't cheat You. I beg to differ. Some of the biggest swindles have been perpetrated by "companies in good standing". http://www.2bangkok.com/2bangkok/Scams/sapp10.shtml http://www.gemsny.com/guide/top-10-d...elry-business/ Bähh You can´t compare these with real "companies in good standing". And, ... remember Enron (albeit not a jewelry company) 4. I'm not sure what probing questions to ask for my protection. Can anyone offer good suggestions as to how I can protect myself while making such a large purchase? I would also love to hear from folks who have actually purchased diamonds on e-bay. I appreciate your advice and time! Look here for diamanonds wich are second hand ans so far not too expensive. http://www.schmuck-boerse.com/index-...-diamant-2.htm Dude, the guy posting is most likely from the US. Do you really think it is useful to offer him a place to buy a stone from Germany, when he has just told you that he is not comfortable buying anything he can't see ?!? He might get a comparison of price and quality. -- Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com Welcome :-) Mit freundlichem Gruß, Heinrich Butschal -- Schmuck Gutachter und Schmuckverkauf http://www.butschal.de Schmuck nach Maß anfertigen http://www.meister-atelier.de Firmengeschenke und Ehrennadeln http://www.goldschmiede-meister.com Schmuckmanufaktur http://www.schmuckfabrik.de Schmuck gut verkaufen und günstig kaufen http://www.schmuck-boerse.com |
#16
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Ebay Diamonds
"Abrasha" wrote in message ... William Black wrote: "Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message ... Pass them through an international border (by post or in your pocket) you stand a chance of getting them impounded. Oh? Not likely. At least not at the consumer level or with cut stones. British Customs (I'm not sure what the agency is called this week) has just bought a very clever device for telling the origin of diamonds by some sort clever test, probably crystalography of some kind. Bull****! What technology do they use? Don't tell me the bloody thing is a PR fantasy, because it isn't. -- William Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. |
#17
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Ebay Diamonds
"Abrasha" wrote in message ... William Black wrote: Diamonds without a certificate of origin these days may be 'blood diamonds'. Very small chance. Besides, even if the stone comes with a "certificate" stating that it is not a "conflict diamond" (That is the correct term. You seem to get your knowledge from Hollywood), it is no guarantee, that it is actually a conflict free diamond. Actually it comes from contact with a couple of friends who were British soldiers who ended up in Sierra Leone and were shot at by the people selling the things and buying guns with the profits. They called them 'Blood Diamonds' and they had a professional interest. Pass them through an international border (by post or in your pocket) you stand a chance of getting them impounded. What makes you think he wants to "pass then through an international border" (are there any other borders?). Oh yes. Look up 'Interstate comerce in the USA' some time Most likely he wants to buy a stone that has already been imported. To where? I live on two different continents at various times of the year and buy some stones and jewellery. It is normal for me to cross international borders carrying gems and jewellery. These days the diamond investment market is plunging like a stone. It's an artificial market that has a very limited lifetime now that everyone has realised that it's a cartel cheating them. There is no cheating. However deBeers is very upfront about the fact, that they control diamond prices very strictly and successfully. I understand that their sucess was challenged until they managed to get the output of the Sierra Leonian mines under their control. It is the 'unregistered sellers' that were causing them the problem. deBeers doesn't operate directly in the USA because their normal business practices would be considered illegal there... -- William Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. |
#18
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Ebay Diamonds
Abrasha wrote in
: Then I must have misheard the chap at one gem supplier. Look for Chatham ruby, Tom Chatham's (http://www.chatham.com/clippings/c95-1.html) office is here in San Francisco, one block from my studio. He makes nice Emeralds too. And then there's these folk: http://www.ramaura.com/article.htm -- Saint Séimí mac Liam Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve Prophet of The Great Tagger Canonized December '99 |
#19
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Ebay Diamonds
William Black wrote:
deBeers doesn't operate directly in the USA because their normal business practices would be considered illegal there... They just opened a store last week across the street from me. http://tinyurl.com/66f7wa -- Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#20
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Ebay Diamonds
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:27:42 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "William Black"
wrote: Oh yes. Look up 'Interstate comerce in the USA' some time I understand that their sucess was challenged until they managed to get the output of the Sierra Leonian mines under their control. Sierra Leone is/was hardly the only diamond source operating outside of the DeBeers line of control. Venezuela, Canada, Australia, and many of the Russian sources sell, or have sold, outside of the DeBeers organization to one degree or another. DeBeers is no longer a total monopoly. But they do still control the majority of the sources, and that seems to be enough. It is the 'unregistered sellers' that were causing them the problem. Or any sellers working outside of their organization, as noted above. But for many diamond sellers, it doesn't make too much sense to work outside of DeBeers, since often they'll simply get the best prices through them... Perhaps the greatest long term threat to DeBeers isn't the "out of network" sales of rough diamonds. It may well be the developing field of synthetic diamonds. If available in enough quantitiy, at high enough quality, to cause serious competition with natural diamonds but at lower cost, the implications for DeBeers could be significant. Part of their response to this has been the aggressive work to promote DeBeers as a brand name for diamonds, rather than just a source, as well as a lot of research in developing methods of accurately detecting the synthetic diamonds. Much of the current crop of yellow fancy colors, and perhaps the other fancies also being made, ARE identifiable, at least by a good gem lab if not by the average gemologist. But the colorless high quality stones that may be coming down the line in the future could be a LOT more difficult to identify with certainty, and if we end up where a diamond can no longer be absolutely identified as natural versus synthetic, the effect on diamond prices could be dramatic, at least in the higher qualities where this is most likely to be an issue. deBeers doesn't operate directly in the USA because their normal business practices would be considered illegal there... Not any longer. The Antitrust / monopoly issues the justice department had with DeBeers for many years were, so far as I know, settled via a rather large class action lawsuit earlier this year. virtually anyone who'd bought diamonds, either wholesale or retail, in the U.S. during the past ten years or something like that, could, if they wished, file a claim to get some of the price back. For large dealers and sellers, it made sense to file claims. For most individuals, the payment funds would have been sufficiently diluted as to make the end payout not much worth the paperwork. But whatever, the lawyers made a lot of money on the suit, as they always due, and since that settlement agreement, DeBeers is no longer under that cloud of prosecution here in the U.S. Even the top executives, who for many years didn't travel to the U.S. to avoid arrest here, apparently are now again free to do so if they wish. At least, that's what the news stories said. I don't have all the details handy. But as Abrasha has pointed out, they are now opening offices and stores in the U.S. Peter |
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