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The Beadmakers Liberation Front



 
 
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  #61  
Old February 11th 04, 11:30 PM
Christina Peterson
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It was an excellent post.

Tina


"Kandice Seeber" wrote in message
...
Freakin' well said, Beki!! I think the group is well-intentioned and made
up of good people. I also think that they need to consider that their
liberation front may not change the market to what they want to change it
to, because that just isn't the way it works on ebay.
I agree about the use of the term Nazi as well. While the group *is*

trying
to get people to not post 99 cent auctions, and to raise their prices in
general, several have come forward and said that trying to police pricing
just isn't fair. Some others came right out and said they *do* wish there
was a price guideline that everyone had to follow, and that they should

call
out certain lampworkers and try to get them to change. That's what got me
fired up. But Nazi just isn't the right term, and is pretty mean,

actually.

Here's what I posted there earlier today. I got several private messages
that were positive, but most people in the thread have not responded to

what
I said.

""holding breath, jumping in

Okay. I wasn't going to post anything in this thread, but after reading it
all, I really want to now. I applaud the good intentions. I love Rita -
she's fabulous, as an artist and as a person.
However, I have a few issues with this Liberation Group, and I am going to
post my opinions about it, while still trying to honor the fact that this
whole idea is about empowering and respecting art.

Issue #1, which was brought up by someone else (thank goodness, otherwise

I
would be too afraid to post my thoughts) - 99 cent auctions are not always
about perceived value. I have said this before and I will say it again - I
post 99 cent bead sets on ebay to reduce ebay fees, and because I have
confidence that my beads will get a good price. I have only been
disappointed once or twice. eBay is an auction house, *not* a retail

outlet.
It's a game to many cusotmers. People do need to ba a little more lenient
about price, but I *do* understand the need to ask for prices you can
accept. That means when you list something, you need to be ready for what
the market decides to do with it. So admonishing people for listing at 99
cents or 9.99 or 99.99 or what have you, is really not something that I

see
as good. A couple of artists have actually been named here in this thread,
and some have been alluded to. That's not fair.

Issue #2, which is a broad and multi-faceted issue - Everyone in this art
field needs to take a good long look at if and why they are not selling
their pieces for what they would like to. There's a whole huge range of
skill in this group. Some beadmakers / glass artists cannot command higher
prices due to a whole bunch of reasons that need to be addressed. You

can't
just increase your prices, stand back and watch the money pour in. You

need
to consider your buyers. You're not letting them in on this group action -
they will have no idea why you're doing what you're doing.
To raise prices, you also need to raise the bar where quality is

concerned.
I am not just talking about the quality of the bead itself - I also mean

the
quality of service, and the quality of the auctions themselves. Someone
posted guidelines on their web site and was torn to pieces on this forum,
even though she is a buyer who spends a lot of money on lampwork.

Customers
need to be listened to. I know we all just want to make what we want and
have it sell, but the bottom line is that the market does not always work
exactly that way. There needs to be a blend of market research and

artistic
expression. If pink is really in this season, that's going to be what

sells
a lot. If you decide not to go with that flow, because you hate pink,

that's
totally fine, but you need to keep that in mind when pink stuff is selling
for higher than your stuff. That's an over-simplified example, of course.
And you know, I see a LOT of people complaining about ebay. Yet, there are
successes on ebay *all the time* in the very categories we sell in. We all
need to look at that and figure out *why*. I am not saying to ask those
sellers for their secrets, or try and copy them. I am saying that we need

to
focus on bettering ourselves as artists. People have success because they
make it. They pay their dues, work like dogs, have talent, and *make their
success*.
Stop complaining about ebay sucking. Start doing your homework and

figuring
out why ebay sucks for you. It's not always a "slow time of year" there.

Issue #3 - ebay is not black and white. It's a grey whale, baby. There's

no
"one way" to make it work. There's no one answer. There are hundreds,

maybe
thousands, of lampworkers listing there. You may think this group is

large,
here, but it's only a small fraction of the lampworkers listing on ebay.
Your group may not get the results you're looking for, so be prepared for
that.

Okay - I know I have been the person to post an opposing opinion on

several
of these types of issues on this forum. If y'all want me to go away, just
let me know. I can handle that. But the many new threads about ebay being
crap, and complaining about not getting the prices you want for your beads
is getting really irksome to me. Maybe it's because I am not having the

same
problems you all are. And you know what? No one ever asks me why. Does any
one care why?""

--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net

Wow, I have so many issues I could bring up about this concept. =o)

First, I would like to comment that I am offended when people use the

term
Nazi
lightly. There is nothing even remotely similar to lampworkers and a

Nazi.

Second, while I feel the concept of people placing a personal value on

their
own work is a good one, determining an industry standard, just because

you
happen to produce a product within a certain category, just won't work.
That would be like asking all beadweavers to charge at least X amount of
dollars per hour for their work. Their lives may be so busy that their

hourly
worth is tremendous, but they may not yet have all the skills to produce

a
quality piece of beadwork.

Third, I have been involved in the beading world for over 30 years now.

I
started creating simple beaded pieces with my Grandmother at age 8. By

age 12,
I was selling simple beaded jewelry to friends, at the beach and at

small
craft shows. By 18 I was selling beads. By 25 I had an established

retail
store.
While I am not the most experienced person in this industry, I am very
experienced. I have made it my life to learn as much about beads in all

their
forms as I can. Along with that self-education comes a bit of

understanding on
how the market (as it relates to beads and beading) works.
There will always be the person who feels they need to "undercut" the

next
guy
to stand out. There will always be the person who feels the "value" of

their
time is worth more than the average market will bear. There will always

be the
person who understands their worth, and is willing to work with the

market
demand to find that happy medium.

That being said, there is such a tremendous influx of lampworkers at

this
time,
that the market will be thin. This is the progression of any industry.

As the
market thins, your competition increases.
You can compensate for that by looking within ones self and determining

what it
is you as an individual can do to change.
You can use your competition to better yourself. (which, I feel, is

what
should always be done) This same set of standard rules of business

apply
to
any field. Beadmakers, beadsellers, beaders, etc.
Your service, your reputation, your style, your adaptability, your

personal
input into the industry, all of these things are what can help set you

apart
from your competition. This is what will raise the value of what you

have
to
offer. Not what others choose to sell for.
The value of the beads I sell are in direct relation to their quality,

my
service, my reputation, and the volume I sell them in.
They are not, nor will they ever be, in relation to what others sell

theirs
for.
I do however, work under a standard industry guideline. I do not

intentionally
undercut others and I do not overprice.
Were I to make my own beads for sale, I would again follow along those

same
guidelines. I would understand what the market can bear, I would learn

where
and who my customers are, and I would supply them with what they want at

the
prices they demand. If I were really lucky, I would be some of the very

few
who know how to escalate themselves to the top of that imaginary list of

the
best of the best.. =o)
If the online auction places are not bringing you the dollar amount you

feel
you deserve, then find the location that will.
It works better to locate your customers rather than try to force

yourself
upon
them.

While the entire bead industry can and should be viewed as one big

family,
it
is the individuals within that family that make it what it is.

A think a revolution to help others learn to value themselves as

artists,
craftspeople, creators, sellers, business people, etc would garner much

more
worth.

Beki
http://www.whimbeads.com





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  #62  
Old February 11th 04, 11:35 PM
Christina Peterson
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Very true.

Tina


"Dr. Sooz" wrote ...

I think there are people who suffer a lot, emotionally, over why their

auctions
aren't getting more bids (or any bids, in some cases). They cry about it

in
pubic forums everywhere. I've looked at their beads, I've even bought

their
beads (this is not any one person, mind you). I won't be back to buy more
beads from them. Why?

Because I was unhappy with the beads, and they have a lot of competition.

So I
don't have to go back and waste my time buying their flawed product -- I

can
just cross them off my list of sellers. Their holes were rough, or their

beads
weren't balanced, or the colors weren't lovely. Whatever it was, their

product
was not up to the market's professional standards, and I feel like I

wasted my
money. Some of those beads actually ended up in my trash basket....but I
remember them well.

I don't have the $$ to burn that I'd need to purchase from these folks.
They've shown they have little respect for me -- why would they sell me
substandard beads otherwise? Bad experiences = no money in that

beadmaker's
pocket. And I do tell my friends, so it ripples out.

If you, whoever the "you" might be, aren't getting the sales you want

(unless
you're brand new at selling, of course), please, please examine your work.

I
don't care how long you've been doing it. You may have developed bad

habits.
You probably grew your craft when there was little competition if you've

been
doing it a long time. If you're new, or an old salt, you need to polish
yourself to survive.

Times have changed. You need to become excellent if you want that pie in

the
sky you moan about.



  #63  
Old February 11th 04, 11:47 PM
Christina Peterson
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This is so very absolutely true. There are many important factors in the
valuation of art.

First there is the craft, the artisan skills. And that does not always
depend on experience. For example, with my inferior hand and finger
dexterity, I will always be a slower beader than my experience would
dictate. And I'd swear some blassworkers have problems with depth
perception.

There is also a level of artistic education that effects work. Most people
need a little education to make something well balanced (in material and
weight) and well proportioned and color balanced. It's really not something
that any kid could do because it "comes naturally". Sometimes people profit
from formal art classes, or from workshops, or from exposure to museums.
But education does make a difference.

And then there is the element of serendipity. A beauty that just seems to
occur, with no more effort than is given to other pieces. (And which happen
more often with education and experience).

It's not just the size of the bead, the cost of the materials and the time
spent that determine value. These are reasons why bead prices can't be
figured by formula.

Tina




"DreamBeadr" wrote in message
...
Well, it makes sense...however, art is completely subjective. There are

no
two beads exactly alike, so it's harder to price fix.


In addition, if you translate this concept into another area in the

beading
world, it also does not make sense.
If you have a stay at home Mom with 3 kids beading an amulet bag in her

"spare"
time. Like between diaper changes, bottle washing, soccer practice, a few
minutes of catching your favorite soap, making dinner, baths and bedtime,

does
her work represent the same value as a beadworker who devotes a full 8

hours of
his or her day to creating?

The answer to that question for me is which of the two above mentioned

beaders
is the more skilled? Who produces the higher quality product? Who has

the
better artistic treatment of the item?
Who pays more attention to the craftsmanship and detail to assure the item

they
are creating will last a lifetime?
Which of the two has taken the time to locate their true market?


Beki
http://www.whimbeads.com



  #64  
Old February 12th 04, 12:08 AM
Christina Peterson
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I'm glad to know that, because I really am trying to figure out pricing.

Tina


"Kandice Seeber" wrote in message
...
Actually, she sells a LOT.

--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net

Here's jewelry offerred by a beadmaker.
http://www.blackberrybeads.com/Finis...Necklaces.html
Considering the prices for these items, I guess I should be charging

$250
for wholesale.

I'm not picking on anyone. I'm just trying to get a feel for this.

Tina



ROFL - Get their prices!! I wonder if they sell any..

It surely makes your point...

Mavis
:-))






  #65  
Old February 12th 04, 12:44 AM
Dr. Sooz
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And I
think you are right that for some people it's just easier to complain than
to actually DO anything.


Haw haw haw! Yeah.
~~
Sooz
-------
"Those in the cheaper seats clap. The rest of you rattle your jewelry." John
Lennon (1940 - 1980) Royal Varieties Performance
~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
  #66  
Old February 12th 04, 12:46 AM
Dr. Sooz
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Ahh, you said it so beautifully Sooz...

Okay, now I'm in love with you.

haw!
~~
Sooz
-------
"Those in the cheaper seats clap. The rest of you rattle your jewelry." John
Lennon (1940 - 1980) Royal Varieties Performance
~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
  #67  
Old February 12th 04, 12:46 AM
Dr. Sooz
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Right.

However, it is not undercutting to offer lesser beads for a lesser price.

Tina

"Dr. Sooz" wrote

I don't agree with the organization, the "rules", etc. But I

wholeheartedly
support the feeling that undercutting is noxious and harmful to beaders

and
beadmakers everywhere.



~~
Sooz
-------
"Those in the cheaper seats clap. The rest of you rattle your jewelry." John
Lennon (1940 - 1980) Royal Varieties Performance
~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
  #68  
Old February 12th 04, 01:25 AM
rainbow
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What Mavis said about this being true if anything one is selling is
true. But I want to tell a particular story so you can all see how
people are. I charges $55 an hour for kids parties in my entertainment
co. bac in 1985. At that tim it was the going rate, but due to rising
costs, I went up to $65. I had alot of competitiors in that city and we
were polite with each other, but fell short of discussing price. So one
person calls me on the phone and says, "look, I am going to raise my
rate. To be fair to all, each of us should go up to $65." I had been at
$65 for months. But, he didn't kow this. He tried to talk me in to his
viewpoint, when my other 2 lines rang. On the end of each was another
entertainer, telling me about him ... something was afoot. It took a few
days, but the punchline hit. I was cold calling some businesses I worked
with, an trying to book spring events ... his rate had dropped to $45.
He cheapened himself, even though he was a quality act, and I am sure
people wondered why he was so desperate. And he made all of us look
greedy. But only for a time. People looked at him suspiciously, and
hired all of us anyway. I presetly raised my rate to $85. And crossed my
fingers. I had a way at that time to promote myself as #1, because I had
just performed at the White House Easter Egg Roll. I touted my high
quality and bet that people would pay my price based on the info I used
to promote it. And I made the others look cheap, or ordinary ... and I
won the day. I have been involved as a craftsperson
since I was 16 yrs old. The question of whether or not we get paid our
worth, has always been there and always will be. I suggest that
you promote your artistry, show what you have and never care about the
people who can't or won't pay what you ask. Yeah, and I am the one who
had an emergency sale this year ... which was a different thing
altogether. You mght need a better marketing plan if your stuff isn't
selling at the price you want, or you might need to redo your
promotional material or reassess the value of what you have. But don't
sell yourself short. Only if it's an emergency !
Honeybunch

  #69  
Old February 12th 04, 01:28 AM
Christina Peterson
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I probably buy sets of beads more often than focal beads. Things like that
generally are most appropriately used made up into something.

Also, maybe think of this in terms of another art. Making fabric. Hand
made fabrics stand alone as pieces of art. But people will buy more fabric
made inro clothing than fabric used as a wall hanging or kept in a
collection (including one of a kind pieces of fabric).

Tina


"Tinkster" wrote in message
news
This is a really important point. The vast majority of my customers
buy my beads to collect and display, not to turn into jewelry. And not
to turn into jewelry to resell for a profit.



  #70  
Old February 12th 04, 01:46 AM
Kandice Seeber
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I just posted a long post on the thread in wet canvas, that can address your
post here, so rather than typing it all again, I will be lazy

"Mary - no there are not two seperate groups. The gal who posted that we
should form our own group PMed me and let me know she was joking when she
posted that. I'm not joining any group, because I really don't agree with
some of the ideas, so I wouldn't fit. I don't think any group should have
the power to tell people how to run their businesses. Suggestions are fine,
but policing is not. People should feel free to do what works best for them.

I think Rita's post was well-intentioned, and parts of it were even really
cute and humorous. I think some of her ideas are great. However, she did
contradict herself somewhat when she suggested we have a price per hour
guideline (or any other pricing guideline, to "change the current pricing
trends in the beadmaking/selling community"), but then said later she didn't
want people telling her how to price her work. I am in agreement about not
liking a group of people telling me how to price my work, unless that group
of people are customers - at which point I may listen and I may take advice,
if it works for me.

I think forming a "union" or official group is misguided and would not get
you what you really want. I think educating the public on the differences
between handmade lampwork and mass-produced lampwork is great. I think there
are already groups out there that do this. ISGB, regional bead societies and
more.

However, if people want to form a group, more power to you! I just won't be
joining. I won't form my own group, or ask for factions, or try and work
against the group.

And Rita - I was afraid to post my views at first, because I have been raked
over the coals for doing so a couple of times before in other threads,
because my opinion was not in the majority. But this time I am glad I did,
because the response has been very positive. I've had numerous PM's from
people agreeing with me who have not posted in this thread. So there are
people reading who are not posting, but some do not agree with the nature of
the group. Also, keep in mind that many people who are reading and posting
here do not sell on ebay, so your quote below may not be entirely accurate.

Quote:
And as far as ebay goes with an average of 3,000 listings in the US lampwork
field that averages 5 auctions per seller for a total of approx. 600
sellers. Well this post has had over 1,000 views and nearly 100 posts. Which
means that 1/6 of the selling community agrees with properly valuing their
work and I see that as enough to effect a change. Not to mention how many of
the readers who didn't post may agree.
Unquote


Basically, what I am trying to say to everyone is that I applaud Rita for
what she is trying to do, because I can see that her spirit is positive.
However, before just jumping in, think about it for awhile. Aren't there
things we could all do on our own to improve our situations? Do we really
need a "group" which actually might foster a feeling of exclusion to some,
or can we make the best of the groups which are already out there?

Anyway, whatever the outcome, these are just my views, and I really don't
plan on changing the way I do things, because I am pretty successful on ebay
and on my website these days, and it's working for me."

--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net

My website is by far the best venue, though, but takes a lot more time

and
energy to run than my ebay presence. So I do both, and they average out

to
be very good.


This is great!!! When people work at it, then it can be a great system

for
them.

I don't
undervalue my work.


This was one of the points I was trying to make.

I work with the market to get the best prices I can
while giving buyers the highest quality, most pleasing beads I possibly

can.

YEAH!!!!!

Anyone with a little talent can do this if they work hard at it, and

listen
to their customers. People complain way too much and tend to think this

is
an easy way to earn lots of money, and think they can do so without much
effort.


I understand that. But also, some people don't know how to start, or how

to
find out the information. Sometimes it's "laziness" (i.e. let eBay sell

the
item for me. If I put it on there, it should automatically sell with
5million bids). I think part of this is not just "let's set prices" but

the
education, also. It's not just support of "aww, poor baby, you aren't
getting your prices, but you need to raise them". But support should also
be sharing of hints and help. But not specifically "Here's the formula

for
selling your items and making a million like I do". I agree with most
people when someone comes on here, and says "how do I sell, and where?".
There should be some research, and also, each area is different. But
guiding, and hinting is good. And there *are* "here's the formula" sites
out there! :-)

Well, there's my 2 cents +. Kandice, don't think you are ranting. You

are
giving an opinion. If we can work together, this is great! As I posted
over there, it's not so much a thing of price fixing/etc, but we need to
come up with a way to work together, and to value our work. No matter

what
level!

Mary

Anyway. Ranting again. Time to stop now before someone whacks
me with a tomato!!



 




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