Working with Platinum

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 23:02:11 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry
(John Franklin) wrote:


On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 23:02:11 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry you wrote:

Let me reitterate some of the points I made to you in email, as well as a couple
thoughts on this post...

All,

Oh well, thanks for the responses. To do this group a favor I will
completely bypass the custom jewelry option and spend my money
elsewhere. I was looking at spending around $3-4K for some custom
jewelry work and more in the future if happy with the work by the
jeweler.

Don't feel your punishing us with this change of hear. We're just here, where
ever in the world we are, while you'd need someone local to you, who no doubt
wasn't a part of this discussion, and might or might not agree with the various
attitudes found here. If you want the jewelry, then find the person who can
make it for you, and go for it. If you don't, then don't. It's a good idea,
before spending lots of cash on something, to have some basic education on the
product involved. Much of what struck some of us in your first post, is that
apparently, you lack a considerable amount of information about custom jewelry.
While normally, this is a fine place to ask questions in order to learn, in the
same breath, you implied that you don't trust us, in effect asking us to both
help you out, and also calling us potential cheats and thieves. Is it any
wonder than not all of us were thrilled to read that? Put yourself in our
place, understanding that we all have to spend a lot of effort earning the
trust of our fellows, customers, and communities. Yes, there are "bad apples"
in the profession now and then, as with any profession. The stories make it
seem more common than it is, and believe me, such crooks are hated even more
within the profession than by the public. So we get ****ed off when someone
implies we might be such, even when that question might seem reasonable, with no
actual intent to insult.


Hum, lets do some math here. I would pay a fair 15% commission on $4K
which works out to $600. I don't know, 6 hours of work? That is
approximately $100/hour. I am unreasonable in my demands to pay
someone to build a quality product for $100/hour?\


No, that's not unreasonable. But how do you know it would take six hours? If
you want a simple wrap around cuff, (though due to platinum's lack of spring,
that might not be a good design without the use of some specialized alloys.

What's unreasonable is asking to watch, at least in most workshops. Jewelry
shops are not generally built to accomodate bystanders. Some things are
dangerous, others are fragile, and frankly, how do WE know you're not the crook,
asking to get into our shops in order to steal from US? And jewelry work takes
a lot of concentration. Bystanders and onlookers make this much much more
difficult, causing wasted time, mistakes, distractions, and the like.



I've seen so much fraud in my job that I don't quite get why someone
would not be hesitant of an unknown person working around several
thousand dollars worth of precious metal.

Valid enough. Which is one good reason to let the jeweler supply the metal.
Then he's not got anything of yours to take. But the real answer is to not go
to anyone blind. Would you go to a doctor you'd never heard of? Check out the
reputation of local jewelers. Get recommendations from other jewelers, or other
jewelry customers. Ask around. Do your homework, and find someone with a good
reputation. Believe me, that reputation is hard earned, and jealously
protected. No sane goldsmith with a good reputation, doing quality work, and
some self respect, would risk loosing all that good will and reputation by
defrauding a customer. To find such a smith, as I said, ask around. And don't
look for the cheapest lowest bid. You'll get just what you pay for, in terms of
quality and craftsmanship and experience. This is not a quick craft to learn.
people who are good at it have spent many years, often several decades, to get
there, and deserve to be paid decently for their work. Find the person who you
want to do the work, Be sure the design and your requirements are fully and
mutually understood, and settle on a fair price without trying to nickle and
dime the jeweler to death. Because of the power of word of mouth advertising,
any such person will not only wish to charge you a price that's good for them,
but will also want to charge you a price that's good and fair for you too. If
you are happy, they know you'll tell others, or come back. And THAT is what
builds this business.

I obviously don't
understand the jewelry business so this will be the last post in this
group for me.

If you like. Your choice. However, if you'd sincerely like to learn, try
posting to this group with an attitude that's more likely to elicite a friendly
response. If you'd skipped the bit about wanting to verify the honesty of the
possible theif you'd be hiring, you'd have gotton a very different tone of
responses. Understand that it's not just you. Many jewelers in the profession
get quite sensative to that attitude because we see it so often, when it's not
deserved, and that causes a great deal of frustration and anger at times.

If a customer in my business asked to sit down while
our office processed their mortgage application paperwork we wouldn't
think twice.

In my shop, you'd be welcome to sit down and read, or listen to music, in a
comfortable place. But you might be there quite a while. Unlike a routine
process of paperwork cranked through a computer, making good jewelry is less
predictable, and not so amenable to a customer sitting and watching, other than
for quick and simple stuff like some simple five minute repair. And much of the
work is detailed enough that for an observer some feet away, there may often not
be all that much entertaining stuff to watch.


John

(John Franklin) wrote in message news:
.. .
Hello,

I am new to jewelry but would appreciate feedback from the regulars.
I have been looking at platinum bracelets but have noticed that they
are very expensive. On the open market, gold is $375 per ounce and
platinum is $730 per ounce. However, I am finding platinum jewelry
three to four times more expensive than gold. So be it.

I know that I can buy .9999 pure platinum Eagles from gold dealers and
I am wondering if a jeweler out there can create a custom bracelet for
me. I would pay a set fee of X dollars for the manufacturing of the
bracelet. I have read from this group that platinum is a bitch to
work with, but would appreciate people's thoughts on the matter.

As I told you in email, pure platinum is almost never used in jewelry making.
It's just too soft. Even the alloys we usually use, which are normally either
90 percent pure platinum, or 95 percent pure platinum, are still quite soft in
some ways. It bends and deforms easily, even though it's quite strong, and
resists wear better than any of the other jewelry metals. So buying Eagles will
not help you, and they cost more than platinum spot price anyway. We buy our
metal from the refiners, already alloyed in most cases. Common alloys used in
the U.S. are iridium, either 5% or more commonly 10% (this is the most common of
the "traditional" platinum alloys, at least in the U.S.) or for cast work, 5%
cobalt. In europe, most platinum alloys are 95% pure, and in addition to those
used in the U.S. often include alloys with 5% copper, or with palladium, among
others.

Working platinum isn't a bitch, it just requires discipline, sometimes different
tools and procedures, and generally better craftsmanship. It's just different
from gold. once you get used to it, you often get to prefer it to other
metals. I can make platinum into good jewelry designs that could not be
properly made in any other metal, in some cases. It's wonderful stuff. But
you DO have to know what you're doing.

It's completely reasonable to ask for a firm price quote before the piece is
made, once the design has been finalized. Whether that's a fee for just the
labor, with metal to be figured later, or supplied by you, or whether it's an
overall price, matters little in the long run. It can be itemized however is
wished. The main point is to know up front what the work will cost, and there's
nothing unreasonable about that.


Finally, if all the above is possible, how long would it take a
jeweler to craft an 8" bracelet and how much would it cost?

You'll need to be MUCH more detailed and specific about the design for anyone to
quote a cost on this. Is it a link, a solid bangle, some sort of chain? What
about decorative aspects? Plain metal, engraved, something else, what? Some
bracelets might be made in an hour, while others might take a hundred hours. Or
more. Depends on what you want made.

Would the
jeweler be ****ed if I baby sat him/her so I knew that he/she was not
ripping me off by mixing the platinum with silver or another cheaper
metal? If baby-sitting is not an option, then how to know that the
manufactured bracelet is 100% pure platinum after it is manufactured?


First, if the jeweler wanted to rip you off, it could likely be be done without
your knowing it. If you were truely watching so closely as to see every bit of
the work, frankly, you'd be too close for the jeweler to be able to work
properly. And that would **** off the jeweler, I'll bet. If you're going to
ask to watch, do it with the clear understanding that the motive is because your
interested in how it's done. Keep any suspicious insulting thoughts very much
to yourself. The implied meaning of such supervision is just too much of an
insult, even if the customer's wish is based on ignorance, not a real suspicion.
But a customer really interested in the nuts and bolts of how it's done, might
be better recieved. Still, please understand that it's not reasonable to really
watch closely over our shoulders for long periods. We'll get claustrophobic or
trip all over you, or accidentally set your hair on fire with the high
temperatures we need to use when working platinum. Or, more likely, you'll
quickly get bored what with not quite understanding everything being done, nor
quite being able to see exactly what's happening from a reasonable distance.


And, as I mentioned above, if the jeweler gives you a bracelet truly made of
pure platinum, then he/she has just ripped you off, because such a bracelet will
not be as sturdy or wearable or long lived as it needs to be. What you need is
simply to know what the alloy is, why it was used, and ask the jeweler to
properly mark the piece with the quality of the metal and his trademark. If at
some time you were suspicious, you could always submit the bracelet to a lab
for analysis, or send it to one of the U.K hallmarking offices and have the pros
test it. That's the routine for everything made in the U.K, so the metal
quality there has always been tested and marked by the government, making
cheating very much more difficult to do.

But as I've said before, you're best bet is to find someone who's work you like,
who you feel you can trust and who is recommended by others, and then let them
do the job without you trying to babysit or mistrust him for what he's doing (At
least don't let the jeweler know).

Hope that helps.

Peter Rowe
(moderator, rec.crafts.jewelry)

John Franklin wrote:

[cut the unrealistic offer]

Hum, lets do some math here. I would pay a fair 15% commission on $4K
which works out to $600. I don't know, 6 hours of work? That is
approximately $100/hour. I am unreasonable in my demands to pay
someone to build a quality product for $100/hour?

Sounds quite simple, however it is not so.
It would work if you like to get melted down some coins an rolled out
to a band an then formed on an oval bracelet.

However its getting complicated if you like to get straight edges, or some
articular, closing or other things.
The goldsmith has to make wires, pipes and for setting stone some bezels. e.g.
The first problem is, that you need significat more material for all of this,
than
the bracelet will contain.
The second is, that some of the material will get lost in powder form by sawing
and polishing.
It could be recycled but this costs extra.
The third is that, dependend of the order, the work will take between 20
until 100 hours or more, if you like it made like that.

Some remark to the original question:
It is true that a piece wich is made in a more expensive material, will cost
more than the relation of material prices only. The reason is the same as in
whole industry:
the more expensive, results in smaller serie.
Production and marketing costs must be payed back with fewer pieces.

The other idea, to order custommade yewels could be an advantage
if the goldsmith is spezialized in this work and material, he will have
wires, pipes, closings and bezels prepared or even readymade.
If you want to pay material inclusive some loss and a fair workingfee, sometimes
you might get your individual yewel for a better price than readymade
in a store.
However you must order in advance and have no chance to try it before.
A good goldsmith will draw a design before, so you might get an impression.

[cut the mistrust]

--
Heinrich Butschal
http://jewels.butschal.com

Thank you Peter for all your trouble on our behalf.I doubt if anyone
else would have said it better.
In fact Mr. John Franklin owes you and us an apology for insulting our
professionalism.
Id say that my reputation ie, my customers trust, is the most valuable
thing I have. Ive worked hard for 35 years to build that up and thats
proved a god send in these difficult financial times.
In addition to my own work I do custom metal work for a big electronics
co. and they are delighted to pay me 100 dollars an hour because they
can have it the next day, sometimes the SAME day!!! I find them answers
they cant find anywhere else for the same price, and they trust me
absolutely.
To give one example I had a call at 3pm to solve a problem before 5.30
pm that day, when they had to go to Holland to fix 100 faulty VDU
supports.
They offered 500 dollars!! if I could find an answer. I did find the
solution, supplied all hardware and tooling to fit same on time!!.
Thats what earns trust and reputation, NOT looking over my shoulder to
see what I am doing.
If we dont deliver were nothing.

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 08:11:56 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "ted.frater"
wrote:

Thank you Peter for all your trouble on our behalf.I doubt if anyone
else would have said it better.
In fact Mr. John Franklin owes you and us an apology for insulting our
professionalism.

No, Ted, I don't think he does. Should a river apologize for flowing within
it's normal stream bed, even if that's not a convenient location, or flooding
(as some local ones are now doing, after Mondays record setting 5 inches of
rain) when it rains too hard, just as they've done since, well, forever?

The point is that though we can be insulted, and understandably so, by this type
of mistrust, and we all have to work very hard to combat these stereotypes and
attitudes, they are not all that unusual, and Mr. Franklin is just reflecting a
typical public lack of understanding of the jewelry industry. This type of
mistrust is the result of a lack of knowledge, and fear born of occasional past
unpleasant experiences and hearsay. This is not nice for us, but it
nevertheless is the way things are. Our job is to try not to get TOO insulted,
even when it's well deserved, but rather to try and educate such customers so
they'll then know the real truth involved, and won't need to be fearful of being
cheated.

And, of course, our job is also to work hard in any way possible to see that
such fears remain unjustified. As an industry, we DO have occasional cheats and
bad applies. Often, this too is the result of ignorance on the part of
retailers willing to do anything for a buck, and customers willing to believe
anything they're told. Knowledge is power, and we have the power to help
improve these things all around.

If Mr. Franklin's approach to us wasn't pleasant for us, that's not really his
fault, as I expect it was an honest enough mistake, easily understood if one
looks at it from his perception, just as we've asked him to look at it from
ours. . It WILL be his fault if he ignores information offered to correct his
misperceptions, but it will be our fault, as artists and an industry, if we fail
to provide the truth when asked.

Peter

Peter W. Rowe pwrowe@ixDOTnetcomDOTcom wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 23:02:11 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry
(John Franklin) wrote:


On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 23:02:11 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry you wrote:

Let me reitterate some of the points I made to you in email, as well as a couple
thoughts on this post...

big snip

If a customer in my business asked to sit down while
our office processed their mortgage application paperwork we wouldn't
think twice.

OMG -- a mortgage broker calling jewelers dishonest.....!!!! Now at
least we know where his suspicions come from. (Sorry, Peter, if this
is something you feel you should delete, go ahead, but we just
recently bought a house and this is something of a sore subject with
me. Junk fees, broken promises, no call-backs, hidden charges, missed
settlement dates, etc, etc.)

On topic content -- the new house has a nice studio space!

Regards,

Bob

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 06:01:41 GMT, (John Franklin)
wrote:

Oh well, thanks for the responses. To do this group a favor I will
completely bypass the custom jewelry option and spend my money
elsewhere. I was looking at spending around $3-4K for some custom
jewelry work and more in the future if happy with the work by the
jeweler.

Like we care.

--
Marilee J. Layman
Handmade Bali Sterling Beads at Wholesale
http://www.basicbali.com

Hi Peter, Its an interesting question, that I think an apology is due,
and you do not.
This difference of view Id put down to the different cultural
background that still exists between your nation and mine.
I would certainly offer an apology if I had inadvertently upset somone.
Just the way I was brought up. Guess im old fashioned!!
Regards
Ted.

Hi Peter,

Just to let you know your posts do make a difference. I had an older Lady
come in to the shop today wanting me to cut the white gold top of her ring
so she could wear it as a plain gold band. She wanted to wait and watch, as
she was very nervous about leaving it. Rather than say I can't do I made an
appointment for her to come back.

I hear there are some well paid jobs going at the UN these days

Chris