Need advice for creating a custom platinum cast pendant

Hello, hope you jewelry craftsmen don't mind an outsider for a bit.

I'm looking to have a pendant built that will be a recognizable version
of a real horse. Probably about 1" on the longest side, cast in platinumif
possible. I intend to take a favorite photo of this horse and use that pose
to build the model. Like this photo, for example.
http://www.rozearabians.com/Roze%20in%20Pasture%202.jpg
It will be an engagement gift, hopefully without the stifling price of a
1ct diamond (and I am also put off by the massive marketing efforts to
sucker yuppie men to buy big engagement rings).

I see two ways to do this:

1) I've procured a couple of 3D models of horses in polygonal format. I'm
tempted to try and use Rhino to skin a NURBs model over the polygonal model,
then modify it to fit the pose and shape of the horse in question. I have
some time, and am willing to put in hard hours to make it work. Then I send
this to a jewelry shop who will rapid prototype and cast and finish it.
(+) I can see the CAD model quite clearly
(-) I might fail in making a decent model
(+) If the modeling doesn't go well, I can still try option 2.
(+) Hopefully save some money by not paying a carver to work in wax.

2) Pay a full-service custom jeweler to do it all. Just provide photos and
a couple of larger models (e.g.
http://www.breyerhorses.com/products....php?item=1175) for them towork
from.
(+) I know the process will work
(+) the artisan may have trouble capturing the individuality of the horse
(once carved, can the carver add wax and re-do portions of the master?)
(-) I'm not as involved in the process
(-) add'l cost of labor for carving the master.

Please comment and make suggestions. If I'm way off base, thinking this
could be done in a couple months and for a couple grand or less, please let
me know. Thanks for all your help.

Dave

"David Geesaman" wrote in message
...
Hello, hope you jewelry craftsmen don't mind an outsider for a bit.

I'm looking to have a pendant built that will be a recognizable version
of a real horse. Probably about 1" on the longest side, cast in platinum if
possible. I intend to take a favorite photo of this horse and use thatpose
to build the model. Like this photo, for example.
http://www.rozearabians.com/Roze%20in%20Pasture%202.jpg
It will be an engagement gift, hopefully without the stifling priceof a
1ct diamond (and I am also put off by the massive marketing efforts to
sucker yuppie men to buy big engagement rings).

I see two ways to do this:

1) I've procured a couple of 3D models of horses in polygonal format. I'm
tempted to try and use Rhino to skin a NURBs model over the polygonal model,
then modify it to fit the pose and shape of the horse in question. I have
some time, and am willing to put in hard hours to make it work. Then Isend
this to a jewelry shop who will rapid prototype and cast and finish it.
(+) I can see the CAD model quite clearly
(-) I might fail in making a decent model
(+) If the modeling doesn't go well, I can still try option 2.
(+) Hopefully save some money by not paying a carver to work in wax.



[I use Rhino all the time, and I like it, but I don't think this will work
too well. While it's easy to go from NURBS to polygons, the reverse is not
true. If you aren't happy with the polygon models you've got, get others,or
build one directly in NURBS. This is at least possible, though not easy -it
would probably be easier for you to model it in wax than in NURBS. In the
case of a horse, even more in the case of human figures, a small error or
discontinuity will be very noticable, even in a small-scale model.]


2) Pay a full-service custom jeweler to do it all. Just provide photosand
a couple of larger models (e.g.
http://www.breyerhorses.com/products....php?item=1175) for them to work
from.
(+) I know the process will work
(+) the artisan may have trouble capturing the individuality of the horse
(once carved, can the carver add wax and re-do portions of the master?)
(-) I'm not as involved in the process
(-) add'l cost of labor for carving the master.

Please comment and make suggestions. If I'm way off base, thinkingthis
could be done in a couple months and for a couple grand or less, pleaselet
me know. Thanks for all your help.

Dave

[You should be able to accomplish plan #2 for $2k or so. Platinum's at about
$1k/oz now, and it's heavy, so you don't get much for your money, but even
good wax carvers work pretty cheap, considering their skill level. Another
course of action would be to find a physical model you like and send it off
for 3d scanning. This would give you a 3d model you could send off for Rapid
Prototyping and custom casting.]

Andrew Werby
www.computersculpture.com

David Geesaman wrote:
Hello, hope you jewelry craftsmen don't mind an outsider for a bit.

I'm looking to have a pendant built that will be a recognizable version
of a real horse. Probably about 1" on the longest side, cast in platinum if
possible.



Please comment and make suggestions. If I'm way off base, thinkingthis
could be done in a couple months and for a couple grand or less, pleaselet
me know. Thanks for all your help.

Dave


I forgot something. You mentioned "Platinum" AND "for a couple grand or
less"

Well, with platinum being around $1,000.00 an ounce these days, ...
forget it! If you want this done right by someone who knows what he/she
is doing, both on the wax carving end and the casting, be prepared to
spend about double that amount. Don't forget that casting in Platinum
is very different then casting in Gold. A lot more difficult.

If you came to me with this project, I would give you a quote of between
$4,000 and $5,000.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

David Geesaman wrote:


1) I've procured a couple of 3D models of horses in polygonal format. I'm
tempted to try and use Rhino to skin a NURBs model over the polygonal model,
then modify it to fit the pose and shape of the horse in question. I have
some time, and am willing to put in hard hours to make it work. Then Isend
this to a jewelry shop who will rapid prototype and cast and finish it.
(+) I can see the CAD model quite clearly
(-) I might fail in making a decent model
(+) If the modeling doesn't go well, I can still try option 2.
(+) Hopefully save some money by not paying a carver to work in wax.

You will not save any money by getting Rhino. First you have to buy it,
then you have to spend hours learning to use it. A good wax will set
you back a few hundred dollars. By the time you are done in Rhino, you
will have spend over a thousand dollars in time and money. And still
not captured the horse the way you want it, unless you are also a
sculptur who specialized in animals.

A good friend of mine, and goldsmith, here in San Francisco is a genius
in modeling wax from nature. He has done it all, fish, octopus, humans,
etc.

Don't do this yourself. Have it done by a professional.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Abrasha wrote:
David Geesaman wrote:

Hello, hope you jewelry craftsmen don't mind an outsider for a bit.

I'm looking to have a pendant built that will be a recognizable version
of a real horse. Probably about 1" on the longest side, cast in platinum if
possible.



Please comment and make suggestions. If I'm way off base, thinkingthis
could be done in a couple months and for a couple grand or less, pleaselet
me know. Thanks for all your help.

Dave



I forgot something. You mentioned "Platinum" AND "for a couple grand or
less"

Well, with platinum being around $1,000.00 an ounce these days, ...
forget it! If you want this done right by someone who knows what he/she
is doing, both on the wax carving end and the casting, be prepared to
spend about double that amount. Don't forget that casting in Platinum
is very different then casting in Gold. A lot more difficult.

If you came to me with this project, I would give you a quote of between
$4,000 and $5,000.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com


Well, there is another way, to get your horse in platinum.
you need to find someone that just happens to have a minting die
already cut in the size and style you want, in relief of course
then all you need to do is supply the platinum sheet, and get it minted.
Now just by chance I chose to have comissioned a no of years ago
just such a die.
Im not interested in doing the other work like soldering on the backing
plate and brooch fittings.
you need someone lke Abrasha or Peter, who is used to working in
platinum every day.

In fact if you chose to do a limited edition of say 5 of these youd ,on
the money front come out with a net profit.
If you want to look at th image of this horse post your reply on this
news group to see if the other gold/platinum smiths are interested in
doing the other work and where you can see it..
However im in S. Dorset UK and would need the platinum supplied by
Cookson metals, a division of Johnson Matthey the international bullion
dealers.
Regrettably I need to make a charge for such a project ,
The first would cost $200.00 and any subsequent ones $40.00 each. You
pay all postage and insurance charges.
You get to keep the platinum scrap of course. theres no wastage.
to tell you a bit more about the horse " James"

He was carved by Anderson in about 1895/7 for a set of gallopers owned
by the famous family Noyce.
this set is still giving pleasure to hundreds of children every year,
and James is their favorite .
This die was comissioned by me to celebtate to 100th year of this
horse and ride and was available in a limited edition only from me in
silver.
The die was cut by the best die maker in the UK John Farady at the co
of H.B. Sale ltd Birminghan in 1997.
Yours wold be the only edition in platinum.

Cast you bread upon the waters so to speak.
Ted Frater Minter dorset UK.
..

Ted Frater wrote:
Abrasha wrote:
David Geesaman wrote:

Hello, hope you jewelry craftsmen don't mind an outsider for a bit.

I'm looking to have a pendant built that will be a recognizable version
of a real horse. Probably about 1" on the longest side, cast in platinum if
possible.

This die was comissioned by me to celebtate to 100th year of this
horse and ride and was available in a limited edition only from me in
silver.
The die was cut by the best die maker in the UK John Farady at the co
of H.B. Sale ltd Birminghan in 1997.
Yours wold be the only edition in platinum.

An interesting proposition, thanks.

I apologize for not making my idea more clear. My goal is to make a
recognizably lifelike impression of her horse. Unless there is a die of
a similar horse that can be modified.

Dave

On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 09:21:49 -0800, David Geesaman
wrote:


I apologize for not making my idea more clear. My goal is to make a
recognizably lifelike impression of her horse. Unless there is a die of
a similar horse that can be modified.

Someone might mention to you that there are likely limits to how close a
likeness you can get. With a pendant reduced in size to one inch, and ina
metallic colorless material (metal), and given the limits of just how well one
can model these things and retain the accuracy of the model during casting and
finishing of the casting, you may not be able to get perfect recognizability of
your horse. Just take a look at coinage. Coin dies are made by master die
makers, at a size of about a foot across, modeled in wax and transferred to
plaster with multiple revisions possible at this very large size. Then they are
pantographically reduced to the size of the coin for making the actual dies, and
even with the enormous accuracy possible this way, any quick look at typical
coinage will show you that the result, while very good, is still a great deal
more stilted and stiff than any photograph. If Ted's die is even close in
terms of overall shape of the animal, hair length, etc, then give it good
consideration, as it may quite likely be about as close as you're likely to get
with casting methods too.

Another process you may wish to investigate is computer controlled engraving.
This can be done on any metal, and the machines can take a photo, convertit to
grayscale, and engrave it with what amounts to a permanent version of printer's
halftones. The result really IS a photo, permanently engraved on the metal.
Still no color, at least in the processes I've seen, and it's a flat surface,
not a modeled one. But it's relatively inexpensive to do, I think. I'veseen
it offered in shopping mall kiosks. The results are quite good and photo
realistic.

I guess my reservations are based just on wondering how precise your
expectations are. The real horse is in color, with patterns and colors making
it much more unique for it's shape than just the shape would do. Even the exact
features and shapes, transferred to metal, will look different because ofthe
material, and even if perfectly modeled in wax, you'll have some deterioration
of the finest surface details in the casting process, and a bit more whenthe
casting gets cleaned up and polished.

Ted's method, of die striking a coin, avoids those deteriorations in the casting
process, and produces no waste metal other than the totally reclaimable part
from which the blank coin was punched. No grindings or filings...

But, and correct me if I'm wrong Ted, but modifying dies to suit a specific
horse is not generally a possibility. Dies, once cut, get carefully heat
treated and finished, and there's a lot of work getting it to that stage,ready
to strike. One doesn't generally just go in and change stuff successfully. Wax
models allow you to do that, but not steel striking dies so much, at least not
at reasonable cost. Keep in mind that normally, just production of decent
striking dies costs thousands of dollars per die. Sometimes, depending on the
type of die, many thousands of dollars...

By the way, back to your original concept of doing this because you don'twish
to buy into the marketing hype of DeBeers and buy a diamond. I fully agree with
you on this. The diamond tradition is one born not of long real tradition, but
from about a hundred years of very aggressive and pervasive and successful
advertising and marketing of diamonds by DeBeers, and the product is one who's
price is very much an artificially controlled thing. So if you wish to not play
ball with this, which amounts to a tradition in much the same way as any other
fashion trend, though more long lived, then I applaud this. But engagement or
promise rings themselves, and even more, wedding rings, without the mandatory
big diamond, ARE indeed a very old tradition, gong back to at least Roman
times, maybe older. In Roman times, the ring was sometimes iron, symbolic of an
iron chain link, and thus the bond of marriage. And so it goes. Lots of
tradition there to take part in if you like. Stones have often been usedin
promise rings, but diamonds are the strong favorite only this last hundred
years. Used before this, but only in a minority of such rings and then usually
by the wealthy only, not everyday folks. In recent times, a distinct
percentage of people have felt like you, and chosen to opt out of the marketing
blitz of diamonds. Diamonds do offer an attractive and very durable stone, but
there are other choices one can make. There are many fine, rare or not so rare,
and very beautiful stones on the market today who's value and price is
determined by real supply and demand factors, not a marketing structure. An
engagement ring set with a nice ruby or sapphire, for example, still offers all
the real traditions of such rings, without playing ball with the DeBeers blitz.
And those are only two of the variety of stones that offer sufficient durability
to go into a ring worn every day and sufficient beauty to make it worthy of such
a use. Think about it.

Peter

On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 09:43:24 -0800, in hõ "David Geesaman"
wrote:

It will be an engagement gift, hopefully without the stifling priceof a
1ct diamond (and I am also put off by the massive marketing efforts to
sucker yuppie men to buy big engagement rings).

You know, another aspect of this project has been bothering me a little, though
just why has taken a bit of time for me to realize.\

Be sure that you've carefully considered the symbolism involved. An engagement
ring is normally intended to symbolize a long lasting promise, ie the concept of
marriage, etc., to the person to whom it's given, rignt?

So who are you proposing to, the girl, or her horse?

Poor wording, I know. But I'm thinking that the girl is more than just this
single interest, isn't she? And the horse no doubt has a shorter lifespan than
one would hope the marriage would have.

I know people form very strong bonds with their pets and animals, and other
interests as well. My own weekly cat food bill attests to that, and a quick
look at my living room easily leaves questions in the mind of the viewer as to
just who dominates the place. me, or my four little feline hell raisers.But
if someone were giving me a gift symbolic of their ever lasting promise of love
for me, I'm not sure I'd want that gift to symbolize my cats. Much as I love
the little guys, they aren't me. Such a gift would be great as a christmas or
birthday thing, and I've gotton such, calanders, T-shirts, and who knows what
all else. But an engagement ring or gift is symbolic of more than just the
current interests of the recipient

Think carefully about the appropriateness of such a symble before you jump at
it. It may well be the perfect choice for this person, but think aboutit
carefully. Is her horse truely the right symbol to use for this purpose?I'm
certainly not implying that some big chunk of pretty mineral is any better, but
just consider the question carefully. Will the piece mean the same thing, and
the right thing, in 20 years time? And consider that an engagement ring is
generally something that most women are able to wear all the time, with any
style of dress, etc. Will this pendant be equally universal and appropriate?
If she only rarely finds herself wearing it, will it mean the same thingsto
her?

Peter

David Geesaman wrote:
Ted Frater wrote:

Abrasha wrote:

David Geesaman wrote:


Hello, hope you jewelry craftsmen don't mind an outsider for a bit.

I'm looking to have a pendant built that will be a recognizable version
of a real horse. Probably about 1" on the longest side, cast in platinum if
possible.



This die was comissioned by me to celebtate to 100th year of this
horse and ride and was available in a limited edition only from me in
silver.
The die was cut by the best die maker in the UK John Farady at the co
of H.B. Sale ltd Birminghan in 1997.
Yours wold be the only edition in platinum.


An interesting proposition, thanks.

I apologize for not making my idea more clear. My goal is to make a
recognizably lifelike impression of her horse. Unless there is a die of
a similar horse that can be modified.

Dave


Thanks for your update on your idea.
James is a minature representation of the wooden galloper horse, tho
very lifelike would not represent her horse, as James is a charictacure
of a real horse, and captures the horse's spirit to the point every
child chooses him to ride above all others.
Ill get an image of him up on my website tomorrow when I can take a
digital image of one of the minted ones I have in my stock.
to continue with comments about detail. From my experience and knowing
my modeller and die cutter personally,
( we have worked on many projects together)
they would be able to do a likeness of her horse right down in size
to as small as 1in overall.
The detail would be far in excess of what could be achieved by modelling
in the actual size and casting from that model. thats the beauty of the
die route.
The design of coin dies is approached from a diffwerent point of view
to that of an art die.
Coin dies have as their primary requirement the ability to produce the
largest no of impressions before the sharpness goes from the coin
inpression.
whereas the art die has as its primary requirement the most accurate
representation of the original image, not only in technical accuracy,
but in spirit as well. Its this latter objective that is the most
demanding and difficult to capture.
This is where the skill of the die designer is tested to the utmost.
the modellers job is the accurate representation of the original art
work. the technical route then on is in the hands of the die cutter,
who works from a resin negative of the original wax model.
Now as to costs.
If one was to go down the new die route, excluding any minting, metal
and other costs, your looking here in the UK at $2500 .00 to the point
of having a working tool steel die in you hand ready to take the 1st
impression.
thats the moment of truth, when you see for the 1st time the results
of all your dreaming, efforts and costs. Sometimes its got it!! and it
sells like hot cakes, but sometimes you seewhat you have missed or left
out , thats the down side.
Its ok but you know in your heart wether it works as an art piece or not.
Peters comments as to its long term suitability are a seriously
weighted observation.
My comment is that despite the De Beers hype and costs,
you wont go wrong with a diamond, as far as the little lady is concerned.
She still gets to keep her real horse? doesnt she? so who is going to
clean out the stable? when you hope shes indoors doing you dinner?
From all the horsey fair maids I know of around here, the horse always
comes before anything else including husbands.
If fact these horsey maids always look out for a husband that has
plenty of good grazing, not just for 1 horse but for several.
..
So be warned.
Worth a a thought.

o

David Geesaman wrote:

Ted Frater wrote:

Abrasha wrote:

David Geesaman wrote:


Hello, hope you jewelry craftsmen don't mind an outsider for a bit.

I'm looking to have a pendant built that will be a recognizable version
of a real horse. Probably about 1" on the longest side, cast in platinum if
possible.



This die was comissioned by me to celebtate to 100th year of this
horse and ride and was available in a limited edition only from me in
silver.
The die was cut by the best die maker in the UK John Farady at the co
of H.B. Sale ltd Birminghan in 1997.
Yours wold be the only edition in platinum.


An interesting proposition, thanks.

I apologize for not making my idea more clear. My goal is to make a
recognizably lifelike impression of her horse. Unless there is a die of
a similar horse that can be modified.

Dave


Other avenues to investigate would be a custom enameled piece. It could
be done in color that way. or A repousse'd and engraved piece perhaps.

just a thought

Carl
1 Lucky Texan



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