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#1
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Soldering
I have been soldering since about 10 years old but pretty much confined to a
soldering iron. The problems of attaching gem heads with a torch seem a bit daunting. My current project is to be-jewel a silver chalice with my faceted and cabbed stones. On my practice goblet, I have been using Crazy Glue with no problems other than the fact that they would probably all fall off if I dropped it. Could someone point me to some basics on soldering with a torch? I have silver bearing solder that can be melted with a hot iron but getting the base hot enough to wet is a bit of a problem. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/weekly.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com |
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#2
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the 1st thing you dont do is attach a gem with a torch, gems are mounted
in settings specifically made for each gem. what type of setting you use depends on many factors. To find out what these factors are....is the 1st thing you have to do. The 2nd thing you really need to do is go to your local library and get out all the books you can on smithing holloware, NOT jewellery making. Holloware is a different branch of the silver trade and, altho it uses the same sort of skills there used differently. you need to read everything in these books as you will find most of the answers you seek there. and get some idea of the skills you need to perfect. From what you have told us so far, it appears your completely out of your depth on a project of this scale. Sorry to be so blunt but you would need a step by step email course over at least a year from an experienced hollow silver ware maker to get anywhere. None of us have the time or patience to devote to such a long enterprise We all have our own living to make . In this trade it is normal to take a 7 year apprenticship assuming you have a flair for this kind of work. As Ive said before, there are 101 things you need to know and be able to do before youll get the sort of results you want. If time is no object ,the other thing you should do is go on a course of hollow ware making , your instructor there will guide you through the processes you need to learn in order to achieve your desired result. Is there anything Peter? or Abrasha? ive left out? to show this guy the size of the mountain he plans to climb?? Terd Frater Dorset UK. Jack Schmidling wrote: I have been soldering since about 10 years old but pretty much confined to a soldering iron. The problems of attaching gem heads with a torch seem a bit daunting. My current project is to be-jewel a silver chalice with my faceted and cabbed stones. On my practice goblet, I have been using Crazy Glue with no problems other than the fact that they would probably all fall off if I dropped it. Could someone point me to some basics on soldering with a torch? I have silver bearing solder that can be melted with a hot iron but getting the base hot enough to wet is a bit of a problem. js |
#3
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"ted.ffrater" Not again.... From what you have told us so far, it appears your completely out of your depth on a project of this scale..... I have been spending hours for years answering random questions on science and astronomy to readers all over the world. The only people I treat as you have treated me are students who are obviously too lazy to write a paper and expect me to do it for them. I usually refer them to the library because that is the way children learn how to learn. I am not a child learning how to learn. The internet is a fantastic resource that nearly makes libraries and encyclopedias obsolete for an educated adult. If you are too lazy to answer my questions, don't bother with the lecture and don't bother pleading for others to back you up. I retired a millionare many times over at age 40. You may rest assured I know my depth and how to swim. There are literally billions of web sites that offer info on just about anything on earth. All I asked for was some help finding something in this field. I did not ask you anything and do not appreciate such answers. If no such web site exists, I will buy books and persue other avenues but you are no help at all and certainly no asset to this group. Thanks, js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/weekly.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com |
#4
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On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 07:31:59 -0700, in hô Jack Schmidling wrote:
"ted.ffrater" Not again.... Hi Jack. good that you took the time to put him down a bit, and did it politely too. I was tempted myself. But moderators need to stay impartial, after all... Ted's not a bad sort, just a rather old school european smith with typically european attitudes about how quickly one can learn this craft. Your post apparently gave him an overblown impression of how much of a beginner you might be. Somehow, after looking at your web site, i don't doubt you know more than you realize, just maybe haven't done it yet... (grin) Ted's post does have some good starting points, he's just coming at it from a typically european persepctive on silversmithing, which sometimes tends to make a deep arcane art which takes years to learn, out of something we here in the states have sophomore jewelry students doing happily by the end of the second month of the fall semester... He's right in that real mastery of the craft of silver smithing on the holloware level takes significant time and energy to learn well, but I think he forgets just how much even a beginner can learn and achieve on even the first piece. In european training, actual holloware, like raising the goblet in the first place, is considered advanced work, and i think he never quite got past that point to your real questions about soldering. Plus, he's right about your initial post suggesting, possibly correctly, that you're a bit of a beginner, given your reticence to work with a torch (which in the end is easier than an iron). But I'll disagree with him that it's so hard to learn. A couple thoughts. First, while I don't know a good web site that just directly shows you to solder with a torch, most good jewelry making books will cover it, and jewelry scale soldering is the same as what you're doing, except you might benefit from a larger torch, such as the air/acetyelene smith or prestolite torches. Very nice for silversmithing work with the larger tips, and just what you need for such things. Please don't consider using any solder that melts low enough for an iron. Even the silver bearing ones are just not good strong joints. They DO offer the advantage of no fire scale or annealing, but thier color match is poor, and once used, you then cannot use proper silver soldering temps, or many techniques, on the piece again, as the low melting solders then cause trouble. If you must use such, consider instead the slightly pricier "TIX" brand. Not sure if it contains silver, but it's intended for jewelry use, and stays a bit brighter looking, plus it melts even lower than what you've probably got now. Even with these solders, you'll have the best luch using a small torch to put the pieces on.to the goblet. You'll need to be using something like closed back bezels, or other solid back findings, rather than typical open backed heads, which simply don't offer enough surface area for the low melting solders to give a useable joint. One web site you can go to for some reasearch is the Ganoksin.com site. it's the home of the Orchid mail list, a far busier discussion site for jewelry makers and hobbyists, and searching the archives of that site will no doubt find you some instructional posts on soldering. Look up also, my own discussions on that site for the use of Prips flux (or misspelled Pripps flux) for how to avoid the problems with fire scale on silver when hard soldering. There are also many discussions on best choices of torches, etc. And if you like feel free to contact me via private email for any additional pointers or questions you might run into. I'll be happy to help you figure this out. Sounds like a fun project. By the way, your web site is inspiring indeed. How do you find the time for quite so many projects and interests? Cheers Peter |
#5
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Jack Schmidling wrote:
I have been soldering since about 10 years old but pretty much confined to a soldering iron. The problems of attaching gem heads with a torch seem a bit daunting. My current project is to be-jewel a silver chalice with my faceted and cabbed stones. On my practice goblet, I have been using Crazy Glue with no problems other than the fact that they would probably all fall off if I dropped it. Could someone point me to some basics on soldering with a torch? I have silver bearing solder that can be melted with a hot iron but getting the base hot enough to wet is a bit of a problem. js http://www.silversmithing.com/ Should have some things that are of help. General jewlelry links for the rest. |
#6
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Jack - If you want some inexpensive hands on instruction, check out
www.lapidaryschoolo.org and www.folkschool.org Otherwise, the first step to learning on your on is Tim McCreight's book 'The Complete Metalsmith'. Many community colleges, as well as major colleges & universities, offer courses in jewelry making. You do not have to be a full time student to take advantage of these courses. Find a local rock club and join it. You would be surprised at the talent and sharing of the members. Look at www.hgms.org Leo aka Charlie cfred at hal-pc dot org Yahoo address is a spam trap. |
#7
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Send him he
http://www.ganoksin.com/server-cgi-bin/iglimpse -- Don Thompson ~~~~~~~~ "Peter W. Rowe" wrote in message ... On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 07:31:59 -0700, in hô Jack Schmidling wrote: "ted.ffrater" Not again.... Hi Jack. good that you took the time to put him down a bit, and did it politely too. I was tempted myself. But moderators need to stay impartial, after all... Ted's not a bad sort, just a rather old school european smith with typically european attitudes about how quickly one can learn this craft. Your post apparently gave him an overblown impression of how much of a beginner you might be. Somehow, after looking at your web site, i don't doubt you know more than you realize, just maybe haven't done it yet... (grin) Ted's post does have some good starting points, he's just coming at it from a typically european persepctive on silversmithing, which sometimes tends to make a deep arcane art which takes years to learn, out of something we here in the states have sophomore jewelry students doing happily by the end of the second month of the fall semester... He's right in that real mastery of the craft of silver smithing on the holloware level takes significant time and energy to learn well, but I think he forgets just how much even a beginner can learn and achieve on even the first piece. In european training, actual holloware, like raising the goblet in the first place, is considered advanced work, and i think he never quite got past that point to your real questions about soldering. Plus, he's right about your initial post suggesting, possibly correctly, that you're a bit of a beginner, given your reticence to work with a torch (which in the end is easier than an iron). But I'll disagree with him that it's so hard to learn. A couple thoughts. First, while I don't know a good web site that just directly shows you to solder with a torch, most good jewelry making books will cover it, and jewelry scale soldering is the same as what you're doing, except you might benefit from a larger torch, such as the air/acetyelene smith or prestolite torches. Very nice for silversmithing work with the larger tips, and just what you need for such things. Please don't consider using any solder that melts low enough for an iron. Even the silver bearing ones are just not good strong joints. They DO offer the advantage of no fire scale or annealing, but thier color match is poor, and once used, you then cannot use proper silver soldering temps, or many techniques, on the piece again, as the low melting solders then cause trouble. If you must use such, consider instead the slightly pricier "TIX" brand. Not sure if it contains silver, but it's intended for jewelry use, and stays a bit brighter looking, plus it melts even lower than what you've probably got now. Even with these solders, you'll have the best luch using a small torch to put the pieces on.to the goblet. You'll need to be using something like closed back bezels, or other solid back findings, rather than typical open backed heads, which simply don't offer enough surface area for the low melting solders to give a useable joint. One web site you can go to for some reasearch is the Ganoksin.com site. it's the home of the Orchid mail list, a far busier discussion site for jewelry makers and hobbyists, and searching the archives of that site will no doubt find you some instructional posts on soldering. Look up also, my own discussions on that site for the use of Prips flux (or misspelled Pripps flux) for how to avoid the problems with fire scale on silver when hard soldering. There are also many discussions on best choices of torches, etc. And if you like feel free to contact me via private email for any additional pointers or questions you might run into. I'll be happy to help you figure this out. Sounds like a fun project. By the way, your web site is inspiring indeed. How do you find the time for quite so many projects and interests? Cheers Peter |
#8
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Ahaaa.... Peter, the true moderator,
Thanks for your valuable imput. Your right, of course, im from the old school of European precious metal working ,but I like to think im honest with it even if it upsets some of the people some of the time. I do stand by my comments tho , about Jack's plans to make a silver chalice decorated with set stones. All one can go on in any comment I make is the writers written word,, so when its said the plan is to set the stones with a torch one has to assume thats what the enquirer wants to do. Your comment that a student 2 months into a course could do it is true also, however it implies that there is a teacher to point the student in the right direction and that the premises where the teaching /learning takes place has the correct equipment to do what the student aspires to make. Jack on the otherhand is presumably working from home, without the benefit of a master to guide him so he faces the difficulty of finding out himself the following. He has to decidedon the design of the chalice, wether traditional, medieval, rennaesence or contemporary, he has then to decide what material to make it from. Having chosen silver, he than has to find out what techniques he has to learn to put it all together. This then defines the equipment hell need. One could of course use soft ie lead tin solder to do this, you know as well as I do thats not the way to have respect for the material in question, ie silver, however its for the maker to decide not us, all we can do is point out the way its allways been done and for what reasons. I did think of suggesting that Jack makle his chalice out of say pewter, or copper or even the harder alloy brass, all of these are well suited to being assembled using soft solder, which hes good at, none the worse for that, its an honest way if the design takes into account the techniques needed to make the joints strong enough to stand the test of time. Ive been fortunate enough to have done quite a lot of restoration work on brass and copper liturgical work which was made just that way. To hard solder silver, where the solder melting temperature is over 600Deg. Centigrade is a different ball game alltogether. Relatively easy on say a ring shank, but to join a thin rub over setting onto a chalice body requires a great deal of knowhow, the right technique the right equipment and fluxes. also the use of anti fire scale coatings. the days of using reducing atmosphere charcoal brazier heating are long gone. One just doesnt want to say to the enquirer , yes, go ahead get a torch, itl be ok, and find that seveal chalices later its all gone wrong and we get blamed for it. I ll stand up and be counted on the point that its going to be really difficult for Jack to get the results he wants without a lot of research ,experimentation, and technical exenditure on his part. I can assure you both Its nothing personal. Let me put it this way, My hobby is hang gliding, its flying like in other aircraft, I need to know similar skills, air law, meterology , flight rules ans so on, also im still here so im reasonably good at it. but if I asked to fly say a Cessna 2 seater, or something bigger, and a much more experienced pilot said Im way out of my depth to even try without doing all the research and training needed, id have to accept his word or pay the penalty if Iscrewed it all up.. Ted Frater Dorset UK. Peter W. Rowe wrote: On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 07:31:59 -0700, in hô Jack Schmidling wrote: "ted.ffrater" Not again.... Hi Jack. good that you took the time to put him down a bit, and did it politely too. I was tempted myself. But moderators need to stay impartial, after all... Ted's not a bad sort, just a rather old school european smith with typically european attitudes about how quickly one can learn this craft. Your post apparently gave him an overblown impression of how much of a beginner you might be. Somehow, after looking at your web site, i don't doubt you know more than you realize, just maybe haven't done it yet... (grin) Ted's post does have some good starting points, he's just coming at it from a typically european persepctive on silversmithing, which sometimes tends to make a deep arcane art which takes years to learn, out of something we here in the states have sophomore jewelry students doing happily by the end of the second month of the fall semester... He's right in that real mastery of the craft of silver smithing on the holloware level takes significant time and energy to learn well, but I think he forgets just how much even a beginner can learn and achieve on even the first piece. In european training, actual holloware, like raising the goblet in the first place, is considered advanced work, and i think he never quite got past that point to your real questions about soldering. Plus, he's right about your initial post suggesting, possibly correctly, that you're a bit of a beginner, given your reticence to work with a torch (which in the end is easier than an iron). But I'll disagree with him that it's so hard to learn. A couple thoughts. First, while I don't know a good web site that just directly shows you to solder with a torch, most good jewelry making books will cover it, and jewelry scale soldering is the same as what you're doing, except you might benefit from a larger torch, such as the air/acetyelene smith or prestolite torches. Very nice for silversmithing work with the larger tips, and just what you need for such things. Please don't consider using any solder that melts low enough for an iron. Even the silver bearing ones are just not good strong joints. They DO offer the advantage of no fire scale or annealing, but thier color match is poor, and once used, you then cannot use proper silver soldering temps, or many techniques, on the piece again, as the low melting solders then cause trouble. If you must use such, consider instead the slightly pricier "TIX" brand. Not sure if it contains silver, but it's intended for jewelry use, and stays a bit brighter looking, plus it melts even lower than what you've probably got now. Even with these solders, you'll have the best luch using a small torch to put the pieces on.to the goblet. You'll need to be using something like closed back bezels, or other solid back findings, rather than typical open backed heads, which simply don't offer enough surface area for the low melting solders to give a useable joint. One web site you can go to for some reasearch is the Ganoksin.com site. it's the home of the Orchid mail list, a far busier discussion site for jewelry makers and hobbyists, and searching the archives of that site will no doubt find you some instructional posts on soldering. Look up also, my own discussions on that site for the use of Prips flux (or misspelled Pripps flux) for how to avoid the problems with fire scale on silver when hard soldering. There are also many discussions on best choices of torches, etc. And if you like feel free to contact me via private email for any additional pointers or questions you might run into. I'll be happy to help you figure this out. Sounds like a fun project. By the way, your web site is inspiring indeed. How do you find the time for quite so many projects and interests? Cheers Peter |
#9
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"Peter W. Rowe" Ted's post does have some good starting points.... As a probably unintended point, I was not even aware of the term holloware so that enhanced my search greatly. But I'll disagree with him that it's so hard to learn. There is the old joke about rocket science and sausage making. It's all sausage making if you know how to do it. Please don't consider using any solder that melts low enough for an iron..... Perhaps, I have a reason that did not occur even to me as I get into this. I can not find and am not ready to make a silver chalice of the sort I want at a price that I can justify, at least for a practice piece. So, I am sort of forced to consider plated brass or some other material. From my experience so far with a plated pewter cup, the silver beads up and the finding melted half way through the cup before I realized what was happening. I was using a torch that was too big for the job and thought the material was brass. It now seems intuitive that I will have to use low temp solder, make a mess and gold plate the finished cup. Even the silver bearing ones are just not good strong joints..... From my experience with solder, one would have to get rather violent to knock off a finding soldered this way. Surely, it or the stone would be damaged before the joint would fail and it's gotta be better than super glue. Even with these solders, you'll have the best luch using a small torch to put the pieces on.to the goblet. Well, that is the way I am headed but one of my unasked questions is dealing with the problem of heating only the area to be soldered so all the previous joints don't fall off. I noticed in a McMaster catalog some sort of heat sink paste that I guess I could surround the setting with. Is this a useful approach? One web site you can go to for some reasearch is the Ganoksin.com site..... Been there. the home of the Orchid mail list, a far busier discussion site for jewelry makers........ Didn't notice the list. And if you like feel free to contact me via private email for any additional pointers or questions you might run into. I'll be happy to help you figure this out. Thanks but I presume aside from Ted, there might be other beginners interested in the discussion. By the way, your web site is inspiring indeed. How do you find the time for quite so many projects and interests? That's one of the reasons I "retired" at age 40. I don't have time for a real job. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/weekly.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com |
#10
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On , in ô Jack Schmidling wrote:
I can not find and am not ready to make a silver chalice of the sort I want at a price that I can justify, at least for a practice piece. So, I am sort of forced to consider plated brass or some other material. From my experience so far with a plated pewter cup, the silver beads up and the finding melted half way through the cup before I realized what was happening. I was using a torch that was too big for the job and thought the material was brass. There are VAST differences between the three materials: Silver, pewter, or brass. Silver stands out in that it is one of the best heat conductors there is. The consequence of that is that soldering a joint without heating the whole thing is often quite difficult. Normally, the proper method is to heat the entire piece, not trying to isolate just the area being soldered. In addition to assisting with solder flow, this also avoids some problems uneven heating can cause with warping. With silver solders (real ones, not the tin/silver alloys), because alloy materials dissipate a little into the parent metal each time the solder is melted in a joint, and more, the longer it's held there, the solder joints tend to raise their own melting point. With care, and the avoidance of using too much solder, previous joints don't generally fall apart when doing subsequent joints. heat sink compounds or simple things like painting a layer of yellow ocher (essentially just dirt...) over previous joints also helps to avoid such problems. With larger pieces, one needent always try to heat the whole thing, but one still needs to generally heat a larger area than just the joint in question. Brass, while it can be soldered at close to the same temps as silver (not quite, but close) is a much poorer heat conductor. So while heating just locally to affect a joint is much easier, it also means uneven heating is much more likely to cause distortion and warping. Also note that the addition of brass to silver lowers it's melting point (It's how you make silver solder). So joining brass with silver solder can be tricky, since there is a tendancy, as the silver diffuses into the brass upon melting, for the amount of molten metal to quickly increase beyond the original volume of silver solder. It can, as a result, be a somewhat treacherous metal to silver solder, especially for beginners. Pewter is essentially tin. So if you're soldering it, the appropriate solders are indeed the tin/silver alloys, or tin/lead alloys if you prefer. Stay brite brand works quite well. You can use an iron or a torch, but tin, even more than brass, does not conduct heat easily, so a small torch can be easier to get heat the the joint. the heat from an iron doesn't well travel beyond the contact point. Very tiny flames, such as the little torch with a small tip, can be used to good effect with pewter, and one can also easily weld it, just by melting chips of pewter down into a seam, without added solder. Again, the small/miniature torches work well. The smallest tip on a prestolite is also very good for this work.. Pewter is also unique in that it does not work harden with cold working. in fact, it actually gets solfter the more you work it. So beginning work in holloware goes quite quickly with the pewter. Couple the speed with which it can be formed, with the neat ability to shape forms by techniques such as cutting "darts" out of the form, much like in sewing, bringing the cut edges together (bending the form) and just welding it up again, also greatly increases one's options. After welding, a little light hammering of the weld to smooth it out and even up the thickness, and it can be totally indistinquishable from the original metal. From my experience with solder, one would have to get rather violent to knock off a finding soldered this way. Surely, it or the stone would be damaged before the joint would fail and it's gotta be better than super glue. The trouble experienced depends on the type of setting, and how one is setting the stone itself. The pressures of pushing over and burnishing a bezel might remove a small bezel soldered to silver with tin solder. The same bezel tin soldered to pewter, though, would hold just fine. However, you probably, if you're carefull, can use the low melting solders. It's just not as good a joint, so be sure the item being soldered has sufficient surface area. you are correct that super glues are not normally a decent option. But even this statement can have it's exceptions. If, for example, the finding was a closed back bezel cup, sanded quite flate after the stone was pre set in the cup, and the chalice had a matched spot also flattened well, so there was a good fit over a decent surface area, then perhaps super glue, or one of the higher tech versions of the cyanoacrylate glues (some of which are used in assembling aircraft wings, for example, so one knows they CAN be strong) would work well. This would allow presetting the stones before affixing to the chalice, which might offer some advantages. The joint strength likely wouldn't be as good, or as long lasting, as solders, but much would depend on the preperation of the joint, and the choice of the exact glue used. Some modern adhesives are amazing things. I noticed in a McMaster catalog some sort of heat sink paste that I guess I could surround the setting with. Is this a useful approach? Sometimes. Not normally really needed, if the previous joints are done well. If only the barely needed amount of solder is used, so that upon reheating the part doesn't actually float on the solder, you'd find the part would normally prefer to remain just where it is rather than moving or falling off. the home of the Orchid mail list, a far busier discussion site for jewelry makers........ Didn't notice the list. The you missed the biggest gem of the ganoksin site. much, or most, of the valuable info available on the site is in the archives of the orchid list discussions. The mail list itself is very busy, getting normally in the range of 50 posts per day. much more than rec.crafts.jewelry (good thing for me...) Thanks but I presume aside from Ted, there might be other beginners interested in the discussion. there may well be, and it's public now. To be honest, my post was actually intended to be a private email to you in the first place. hit the wrong button.... Peter |
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