Terribly OT opinions requested...

OH THAT'S GOOOOD.

Mom were you in the room when we made the baby?


~~
Sooz
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Sooz,
I completely agree with you on the population part. I don't understand why
population control is a taboo subject. Overpopulation is theeeeeeee reason
for all of our environmental and some of our social problems. ( You will
notice that I only have one child; my strong feelings on this subject are
part of the reason). I think we value personal freedom so much that we are
afraid of stepping on peoples toes. We don't want to come off like China
and their one child law.

Having said that, genetic children are a need many of us feel. It is
amazing to see that this little person looks just like your ancestors and
often has their characteristics. The miracle of birth is not just a cliche.
The problem is when people have too many children or have children they
don't care for.
KathyH
"Dr. Sooz" wrote in message
...
3. Think long and hard about the sterilization. What if, god forbid,
you
were in an accident and you lost your children.

Okay.....Why is it that people need to create genetic children in order to
be
fulfilled as parents? There are over 6 billion people on this Earth.
There
were less than 3 billion when I was born! Is no one paying attention to
this?
~~
Sooz
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Karlee,
I am suggesting that you can replace a child, and I should have made that
clear. I can only tell you what I am observing in my friends who lost their
daughter and now wish for a second child. They wanted two children, they
now only have one. Of course they can't replace their daughter, but there
were reasons for them wanting 2 children.
Of course, I completely understand and respect your decision. I just
thought relating my freind's experience might be of use to you. You have
very sound reasons for your decision. Obviously you have not made it
lightly.

I wish you had a more cooperative mother. Sounds like nothing has been real
easy with her for you.

KathyH
"Karlee in Kansas" wrote in message
...


| 3. Think long and hard about the sterilization. What if, god forbid,
you
| were in an accident and you lost your children.

IMO, my kids could not be replaced. By the time I recovered from the
grief as much as one can after loosing a child, of
loosing them, I would most likely be too old to give birth again. I feel
that my kids are a gift to me from a Higher
Power, and if the Higher Power thinks that their "number is up" then I
will mourn them, remember them, and celebrate the
short time that I had them. Knowing how I deal with grief, I probably
would never want to try to have more. I will
probably feel that my role as a parent was only supposed to last that
long. There is also adoption. I could adopt. I
could take a child that has no parents and give them parents. I think
that its impossible for me to love an adopted
child less than a genetic child.

Maybe I have a weird point of view on this, but I'm just basing it on the
fact that I was born to a 14 year old
child...she gave me up for adoption because she knew that she couldn't
provide for me all the things that I would need
provided. I'm grateful because I didn't have to be a burden to a 14 yo
child, and I'm also grateful that there were
people out there that couldn't have kids that decided that they would love
me and treat me like I *was* a genetic child.
Even as many problems that I have with my parents, as big of a PITA my mom
can be, as nosy, pushy, opinionated, rude as
she can be, I still love her. I have never seen her as anything besides
my mom, and if it weren't for her, I could have
wound up a child of the state, bouncing from foster home to foster home,
never having much to call my own, not knowing
what it feels like to have a mom kiss your boo boo's, and not having
someone to turn to when you *really* need them
(yes, she has been there for me most of the time when I really needed
her.), or having someone to turn to for advice.
If it wasn't for mom, I probably would still burn water and mix the reds
in with the whites.

There are a lot of babies born each year to young, unwed mothers, or
families that just aren't ready emotionally or
financially to raise a kid, and the kid gets put up for adoption. A lot
of them never wind up with a family to call
their own. That is why DH and I decided that adoption is an option if we
decide that we want more kids. We could do
for another child what was done for me. Give them a forever family, one
that will always be "theirs" even if they
aren't genetically related. Give them a stable loving family. I know of
several couples in my community that are fully
capable of having kids, but decided to adopt instead. I know of one
family that they had one child genetically, she had
a rough pregnancy and delivery, and from that point on, they adopted.
They have 4 kids now, 3 of them are adopted.

I'm a big "pro choice" person (not my body, not my choice type of
thing....even though the "other" alternative saddens
me deeply), and don't hesitate to talk about adoption to my young friends
that get pregnant and don't want to keep the
baby. I tell them my own story, and my best friends story (She and her
brother and sister were also adopted, all of
them got adopted by the same family), as a way to try to show them that
there are other options and there are people out
there that can give their child the home that they deserve. My friends
call me the "adoption advocate". I also talk to
them about how hard it is to be a mom....especially a single one. I let
them know that its their choice, and regardless
of how I feel about their choice, I will be there for them. Then I help
them find methods of birth control that work
for them, and that they won't have a problem sticking to. (two such young
ladies I was there for during their pregnancy
and delivery (their parents wanted nothing to do with it), and helped both
of them find resources for birth control (one
kept her baby, one chose adoption))

Yes, DH and I wanted another baby, but we also decided early in the
pregnancy, after much prayer, thought and sessions
with both chaplains and therapists, that we would have no more than three
kids. The having the third kid was totally
dependant on how this particular pregnancy went. If this pregnancy was
rough on me like the first was, that is where
we were stopping, and one or both of us was going to get fixed. DH
offered. I didn't have to suggest the thought to
him, and I have even tried to talk HIM out of it despite my desire to have
the tubal. We decided to both get fixed
because if one method is pretty good, then two methods would be better.
The chances of getting pregnant after the woman
has had a tubal and the man has had a vasectomy are astronomical according
to the doc. She said in all her years as an
OBGYN, she has NEVER seen a woman get pregnant after both parties have
been sterilized.

I hope that you can see my point of view a little better now...

Hugs
Karlee in Kansas

Okay, I've got it. Don't tell them when you go into labor. Call them after
the baby is born.
KathyH
"Karlee in Kansas" wrote in message
...
Ummm, yeah, I can completely oust one grandmother. After her history of
abuse towards me and my son (previous
marriage), her nieces, nephews, and her OWN kids, I'm not going to put my
kids through that. Besides, once the baby is
born, my son from the previous marriage will drop off the planet in her
eyes. There will be no Christmas cards, no
hugs, no birthday wishes for him.

Her actions towards me in the last few months, and her actions towards
children in general, do not warrant her getting
any kind of rights. (I have already talked to a lawyer about this in case
she decides to pursue it by those means) I
don't reward my kid for bad behavior, and I'm not going to reward her for
bad behavior. She has called me every name in
the book, tried to get DH to divorce me (none of her "evidence" was
provable by her, and DH knows me better than that
anyway), hurt my son so deeply that he wants nothing to do with her (at 6
no less....and mandated to me that if he EVER
had to be around her again, he was moving to his dad's house), she has
lied to me, she has lied to DH, and recently he
completely disowned her.

My mother does not get everything that she wants from me. She gets to
take my son when it is convenient for me and DH,
not when she gets a wild hair. I don't ask her to baby-sit for me either.
My kids, my responsibility. She has been
wanting for the past 5 months to come up here and organize and decorate
for me (according to her I can't do either with
any aptitude) and since we have been here, hasn't made so much as a trip
by the house because I don't want her to. My
mother is only allowed the freedoms that I give her with my family. If she
were to pull the same stunts that DH's mom
has pulled, she wouldn't be allowed near the kids either.

I have said before that I know that I can't protect my children from
everything. I *can* however protect them from
abuse at the hands of this woman. Simple solution to a simple problem.
Don't let the kids near the abuser.

Hugs
Karlee in Kansas

--
Visit my web page! www.angelfire.com/ks3/karlee/index.html
Our family page: http://groups.msn.com/brennanfamilypage


--
"Christina Peterson" wrote in message
news:1058382803.380240@prawn...
| I have two observations, Karlee. 1. Don't let yourself get too
defensive.
| It's hard to think clearly when you are reacting. And 2. It is
reasonable
| to state that partly out of fairness, you don't want to completely oust
one
| grandmother, and then let the other one have everything she wants. And
this
| is true too.
|
| Tina
|
|
| "Karlee in Kansas" wrote in message
| ...
|
|
| | Maybe you could let your mom and dh's parents in
| | a few hours after for a short visit just to see the new babe and
then
| ask if
| | they'll wait till you are home, or maybe you'll decide the next day
you
| might
| | want them to visit.
|
| Good idea in theory, but mom won't leave when asked. Not when I ask
her
| anyway. Its like I don't have a brain and
| can't deicide for myself when I've had enough. She is more impossible
to
| deal with than a brick wall at times.
|
| DH's mother WILL NOT be allowed ANYWHERE near me for a long damn time.
| She won't be able to get on ft riley after next
| month. Period. Please, don't think for one damn minute that she will
be
| allowed to even SEE these kids, ever, much
| less while I'm in the hospital. If there is any question on this,
there
| is a thread about it archived on google (OT
| going to be gone UPDATE) that thoroughly explains why I don't want
this
| bitch near me or the kids.
|
| If I have a VBAC, I'll be kept for a minimum of 36 hours, and if I
have a
| c-section I'll be kept for a minimum of 72
| hours. Hospital policy. I say minimum because my doc is threatening
| already to keep me double the length that HP
| states....due to MAJOR complications after my first delivery (I almost
| died because of a staph infection that went to my
| brain following surgery)
|
| Hugs
| Karlee in Kansas
|
|
|
|

"Kathy N-V" wrote in message
.com...
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 0:07:20 -0400, Lee S. Billings wrote
(in message ):

Is that really still true?

I wouldn't have thought that would be legal any more...

It wouldn't be legal for *government* agencies. Private ones can still
get
away
with it, though. This issue came up on a mailing list a while back, and
I
actually did some gasp RESEARCH! I called every adoption agency that
had a
local phone listing, said I was doing a paper for a class, and asked
several
questions. One of them was, specifically, "Would you place a black or
mixed-race child with a white couple?" One or two said yes; one said
they
would
do it only if the bio-mother approved; the others all said no.

This is due to a policy statement put out by the Black Social Worker's
Association. Some time back, they passed a position statement saying that
adoption of black or mixed race kids into white families was akin to
ethnic
cleansing (or genocide, I can't remember which term, but they were equally
offensive). They stated that they'd far rather these kids gain their
najority in institutions or foster care than be raised by a white family.

Oh, good lord. This is practically criminal. Deliberately deprive a child
of a loving home with caring parents because of *racial* considerations?
That's like putting race above humanity.

I'm sure the child's need to live in a racially homogenous environment *far*
outweighs his or her need to be loved, held and made to feel wanted and of
value in a permanent home with loving parents. dripping sarcasm there.

Sometimes I really wonder when or if the world is going to grow up.

Laura

Deliberately deprive a child
of a loving home with caring parents because of *racial* considerations?
That's like putting race above humanity.

Well said!!!

Carol in SLC
(My stuff - http://members.aol.com/carolinslc/driver1.jpg )
Little sister's new JB auctions 7/12
http://www.justbeads.com/search/ql.cfm?s=63875

I'm trying to condition them for that now...

I haven't called my mom since we got back from the trip to Pennsylvania, but she has called me twice. Tomorrow will be
one week since I talked to her (she is now on vacation in NYC), and haven't called my dad while she has been gone.

I figure that if she gets used to talking to me once every week or two, then it won't be a signal to her that I'm
having/had the baby when I don't talk to her every other day...

Course, I may just be shooting myself in the foot with this...but its worth a try. I just hope that someday soon she
gets it through her head that I need space, and that I'm not going to let her intrude the way that she has been trying.

(side note, she got mad at me when I didn't call her the day after and two days after my wedding day. She couldn't
understand that I had "other" things on my mind....)

Hugs
Karlee in Kansas

--
Visit my web page! www.angelfire.com/ks3/karlee/index.html
Our family page: http://groups.msn.com/brennanfamilypage


--
"mkahogan" wrote in message ...
| Okay, I've got it. Don't tell them when you go into labor. Call them after
| the baby is born.
| KathyH
| "Karlee in Kansas" wrote in message
| ...
| Ummm, yeah, I can completely oust one grandmother. After her history of
| abuse towards me and my son (previous
| marriage), her nieces, nephews, and her OWN kids, I'm not going to put my
| kids through that. Besides, once the baby is
| born, my son from the previous marriage will drop off the planet in her
| eyes. There will be no Christmas cards, no
| hugs, no birthday wishes for him.
|
| Her actions towards me in the last few months, and her actions towards
| children in general, do not warrant her getting
| any kind of rights. (I have already talked to a lawyer about this in case
| she decides to pursue it by those means) I
| don't reward my kid for bad behavior, and I'm not going to reward her for
| bad behavior. She has called me every name in
| the book, tried to get DH to divorce me (none of her "evidence" was
| provable by her, and DH knows me better than that
| anyway), hurt my son so deeply that he wants nothing to do with her (at 6
| no less....and mandated to me that if he EVER
| had to be around her again, he was moving to his dad's house), she has
| lied to me, she has lied to DH, and recently he
| completely disowned her.
|
| My mother does not get everything that she wants from me. She gets to
| take my son when it is convenient for me and DH,
| not when she gets a wild hair. I don't ask her to baby-sit for me either.
| My kids, my responsibility. She has been
| wanting for the past 5 months to come up here and organize and decorate
| for me (according to her I can't do either with
| any aptitude) and since we have been here, hasn't made so much as a trip
| by the house because I don't want her to. My
| mother is only allowed the freedoms that I give her with my family. If she
| were to pull the same stunts that DH's mom
| has pulled, she wouldn't be allowed near the kids either.
|
| I have said before that I know that I can't protect my children from
| everything. I *can* however protect them from
| abuse at the hands of this woman. Simple solution to a simple problem.
| Don't let the kids near the abuser.
|
| Hugs
| Karlee in Kansas
|
| --
| Visit my web page! www.angelfire.com/ks3/karlee/index.html
| Our family page: http://groups.msn.com/brennanfamilypage
|
|
| --
| "Christina Peterson" wrote in message
| news:1058382803.380240@prawn...
| | I have two observations, Karlee. 1. Don't let yourself get too
| defensive.
| | It's hard to think clearly when you are reacting. And 2. It is
| reasonable
| | to state that partly out of fairness, you don't want to completely oust
| one
| | grandmother, and then let the other one have everything she wants. And
| this
| | is true too.
| |
| | Tina
| |
| |
| | "Karlee in Kansas" wrote in message
| | ...
| |
| |
| | | Maybe you could let your mom and dh's parents in
| | | a few hours after for a short visit just to see the new babe and
| then
| | ask if
| | | they'll wait till you are home, or maybe you'll decide the next day
| you
| | might
| | | want them to visit.
| |
| | Good idea in theory, but mom won't leave when asked. Not when I ask
| her
| | anyway. Its like I don't have a brain and
| | can't deicide for myself when I've had enough. She is more impossible
| to
| | deal with than a brick wall at times.
| |
| | DH's mother WILL NOT be allowed ANYWHERE near me for a long damn time.
| | She won't be able to get on ft riley after next
| | month. Period. Please, don't think for one damn minute that she will
| be
| | allowed to even SEE these kids, ever, much
| | less while I'm in the hospital. If there is any question on this,
| there
| | is a thread about it archived on google (OT
| | going to be gone UPDATE) that thoroughly explains why I don't want
| this
| | bitch near me or the kids.
| |
| | If I have a VBAC, I'll be kept for a minimum of 36 hours, and if I
| have a
| | c-section I'll be kept for a minimum of 72
| | hours. Hospital policy. I say minimum because my doc is threatening
| | already to keep me double the length that HP
| | states....due to MAJOR complications after my first delivery (I almost
| | died because of a staph infection that went to my
| | brain following surgery)
| |
| | Hugs
| | Karlee in Kansas
| |
| |
| |
| |
|
|
|
|

Some time back, they passed a position statement saying that
adoption of black or mixed race kids into white families was akin to
ethnic
cleansing (or genocid

I suppose growing up in an institution or foster families (no offense to foster
families, I know there are good ones) are better than letting another race
adopt these children?

It is actually hard for me to understand the difference between having a
"biological" child and falling in love with one that isn't, but maybe I'll
understand more after I have one of my own?

This is not a good reason to have kids, IMO.
~~
Sooz
-------
ESBC
~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
~ Bead Notes: Beading information A - Z
http://www.lampwork.net/beadnotes.html

In article , says...

On a side topic, I really don't understand the need to have one's own
biological
children. I personally am not looking forward THAT MUCH to being pregnant or
having a newborn (I'm typically not interested in kids until they start
talking
and "doing stuff") and I feel I could fall in love with almost any child
(knowing myself, I know that I would not be the right parent for a child with
severe mental disabilities, but I think I could be very understanding to a
child with learning disabilities (my husband and several friends have various
ones) or physical disabilities).
However my husband, just about the most generous person I have ever met,
really
wants his own biological children and we've got 5 grandparents and some
great-grandparents who have all expressed similar desires in one form or other
(DH's father and stepmother have had one adopted child and one foster child
in addition to 6 children and several grandchildren on the stepmother's side,
but DH says he knows his father really wants his "own" grandchild, and
apparently amoungst DH's biological siblings we appear most likely to ever get
around to producing those)
It is actually hard for me to understand the difference between having a
"biological" child and falling in love with one that isn't, but maybe I'll
understand more after I have one of my own?

No offense meant, but this whole statement really sets off one of my major
warning bells. Having children isn't something you do for OTHER people. I'm not
saying you shouldn't do it -- only that you need to be sure it's something YOU
want before you do, because once you take that step there's no turning back. If
you do it just to make your husband (or any of the potential grandparents)
happy, you'll end up regretting it and resenting the child.

Celine

--
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