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#41
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A long history of knitting in public, was Help with old english knitting directions
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#42
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A long history of knitting in public, was Help with old english knitting directions
In article ,
Els van Dam wrote: wrote: As I work with LONG fine steel needles, I come to understand why knitting in public was discouraged. Long ago, much knitting was done on long steel knitting needles. I would not want to sit next to someone that was knitting fast and furiously with long steel needles. It would be like sitting next to someone that had a pair of mating porcupines on their lap. Now, I suspect the blokes that made comments about my knitting on the train in GB had sat next to their grandmothers as children; and had been poked by the DPN as their grandmothers knit jumpers. snip Why "grandmothers" specifically? Their mothers may have knitted. Aaron, There may be a generation gap, but when I grew up, everyone knitted in the train or tram, or bus. When you see the Agatha Christie movies, no matter who has the lead role, all the Miss Marples knitted where ever they went. It was very common, in Europe that knitting was done in public. I am talking about 1920- 1930- 1940 etc. There may have been a period that there was not that much knitting going on 1980, however I still think that there was a solid core of knitters at all times. The local yarn shop here in Maryland didn't go out of business until around 1996; up to then there was a solid core of knitters here. snip When knitting was done with (unwashed ??? homespun yarn, as you relate) I would think that public travel was not as common, and that we are talking a much earlier timespan, when yarns were not mass produced. Wool mills may have been dirty places, but I am sure that the fibers where always washed before they were processed, it would have just been too costly, to have to repair the machinery, that would get clogged up with animal oils, dirt and vegetable materials, to not wash the fibers first. At the same time, I would think that those yarns were destined for more mass production of clothing and bedding etc. I do not think that you could buy factory produced yarns in retail stores. Actually, yarn was produced by spinners for retail sale since at least the middle ages. Professional knitters did not spin their own yarn, nor did the weavers or dyers. Anyone who wanted to knit could buy yarn. As I understand it, part of the process of making yarn is to set the twist by washing it. Even wools spun "in the oil" were washed first, and then a measured amount of oil was added back in, to make a consistent product. People knitted in public all the time; at one time there were ordinances passed to prevent children who were in knitting school from wandering the streets while they knitted, for fear that they would get into mischief, but nobody tried to stop adults from knitting anywhere they wanted to. There are photographs of groups of women in Cornwall gathering at their regular knitting places on the cliffside paths to watch for the return of the ships. People simply knew how to arrange themselves so that nobody would be hit by the free end of a needle, the same as people arrange themselves at dinner tables so as to avoid accidental elbow-jabs. There are also many different ways to hold needles and yarn, some of which may give more control than others. =Tamar |
#43
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Help with old english knitting directions
In article ,
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen wrote: No birthday Dear Cher only Holiday greetings ,,, and wht are you breathless ?????? Paragraph spacing can help make your posts easier to read. When the sentences are all in one long paragraph, there are no rest stops. Also, in English we don't repeat commas, and the repeated full stops/periods [.......] mean that the next part is still part of the same sentence, so your sentences all seem to run together. Gosh Mirjam, I am quite out of breath reading all this....lol well done you hugz cher and birthday greetings from me too, didn't know I'd missed it.. I have added paragraph spaces only to your post below. In some places there were extra letter spaces; I wonder whether something odd in the posting system has actually removed line breaks that you had put in. "Mirjam Bruck-Cohen" wrote in message ... C H E R !!!!! hahahahh as Usual you are hilarious .... Yesterday as the Inciator of the Seminar called to wish me Happy holiday ,,, The seminar is called"Pain of Flash and Blood ", An Interdisciplinary conferece about the representation of the ill, the suffering and the delighting body" . I want to go at least 1 day, There will be pschologists, poets, artists [5 exhibtions by artists who are dealing with their ailments or in general about suffer ++] Linguists , writers , a film about a Girl who has to live in some sort of contraption, philoshers etc... I want to go , am pushed for my time, [ anyway have to travel by train 2 hours to and and back] , and know from experience that sitting like this a whole day, with my hands not doing much, isn`t me. I can listen and make some of the Long stichings i do [on the big work] Or knit [ my son wants a second Moebious] . But In israeli Seminars etc,,,,It isn`t done ,,,, After years of women in the Kiboets General Assemblies knitting ... suddenly it became a no no ... I realy want to do it ,,,, And as i presented it to the Inciator yesterday , for me it is one of the Pleasures of the Flesh ,,,, [ he said he doesn`t mind me doing it, in fact he said he could be a Living Show . I Said , you know people will look at me , He said he doesn`t mind, and said why don`t i suggest it to some other colleagues who are coming., in fact i had a feeling he likes me to do it .. So now i will think and prepare a work i can do without much fuss [ just long technical No counting work .] i will prepare to have one of mine ready , i can take it and always Not do it if circumstances aren`t suitable. Of course there will always be somebdy saying I am doing it for attention , but i am really short for time and it helps me to concentrate on the lectures , whose subjects are`t easy , and when pics are shown i can stop ... mirjam =Tamar |
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A long history of knitting in public, was Help with old english knitting directions
Actually, I have only heard 3 comments in the form of "Expletive, Theres
someone knitting!" , that I took to be derogatory. All three times it was made by older guys in football colors drinking beer on the train along the Yorkshire coast. Twice at me, and once at a woman knittng at the other end of the railcar. I have never heard such comments in North America. Not even in Las Vegas. I have developed a love-hate relationship with my long DPN. On the one hand, they let me knit fast and tight with minimum wrist strain. On the other hand, they are dangerous. I mean, I am a careful worker but I have gotten my blood on my WIP. I speculate that any family that successfully raises kids while the women of the family are knitting on long DPN must firmly ingrain rules about the dangers of knitting. Since knitting on 5 long needles is a tradition of the fishing fleets near where I heard the "Expletive, Theres someone knitting!", it was not hard to imagine that long ago, every young boy was wedged against his grandmother as she knit, and the boys were poked by the knitting needles and remained resentful of people knitting in his presence. I would not be surprised if grandpa told his grandson about the dangers of knitting needles and the resentment against knitting has lasted for generations. Of course this is pure speculation, but I certainly would not want to sit next to me as I flail my long needles. I use safer knitting needles in public. Sometimes technology changes faster than local custom. I love the news clips of Eleanor Roosevelt knitting. To a certain extent, I feel that Mrs., Marple's knitting was to represent the unique industry and tenacity of her particular character. I do not remember that most of the other female roles in those movies also knit. AC is not like Jane Austin, or Tolstoy where every woman had her needle work. And, there are knitting needles by Faberge made in the late 19th century and set with (huge) precious jewels from that were certainly meant to be shown off at fan cy dress balls. Knitting in art has many purposes. There was a time when I took my knitting to parties, and BBQs, pubs, and other places where people were eating and drinking. Then I bought a bunch of Reynolds's Lopi. It knitted fine, and made great ski hats and ski socks. I did not realize how dirty the yarn was until I washed those socks for blocking. The nasty stuff in the bottom of the wash tub was an eye opener. So, even today, there is the possibility of dirty yarn. Now, I wash my hands after working with yarn. And, I wash my knitting before I wear it. Period! When I travel, I carry alcohol wipes that I use after knitting and before eating or drinking. And, I certainly do not knit around food or drink. Now! What mother among you is going to tell me not to wash my hands after working with wool? It may not help, but it can not hurt! Aaron "Els van Dam" wrote in message ... Aaron, There may be a generation gap, but when I grew up, everyone knitted in the train or tram, or bus. When you see the Agatha Christie movies, no matter who has the lead role, all the Miss Marples knitted where ever they went. It was very common, in Europe that knitting was done in public. I am talking about 1920- 1930- 1940 etc. There may have been a period that there was not that much knitting going on 1980, however I still think that there was a solid core of knitters at all times. I moved to Toronto in 1957, at 21 years old. The subways were build during that time and when I traveled, on the subway, streetcar, and bus, I would see the same European woman knit or crochet, having the ball of yarn sitting in a bag on their laps. When knitting was done with (unwashed ??? homespun yarn, as you relate) I would think that public travel was not as common, and that we are talking a much earlier timespan, when yarns where not mass produced. Wool mills may have been dirty places, but I am sure that the fibers where always washed before they were processed, it would have just been to costly, to have to repair the machinery, that would get clogged up with animal oils, dirt and vegetable materials, to not wash the fibers first. At the same time, i would think that those yarns were destined for more mass production of clothing and bedding etc. I do not think that you could buy factory produced yarns in retail stores. In general it was and is accepted to knit or embroider, or crochet in public. Maybe a rude or ill mannered person would and will make a comment, but in the broader sense, I have never heard a comment or public outing of negativeness about knitting in public. It may have been a class thing at one time who did and who did not knit in public, but even that, I think was not a big issue. I think you encountered some rude people who not necessarily represent all of England. I think that there is a video of Kaffe Fasset, sitting knitting in a train in England. He did get some commence, but more on "what are you doing" and " what are you making", and that ended up in impromptu knitting lesson on the spot. Els In article , wrote: As I work with LONG fine steel needles, I come to understand why knitting in public was discouraged. Long ago, much knitting was done on long steel knitting needles. I would not want to sit next to someone that was knitting fast and furiously with long steel needles. It would be like sitting next to someone that had a pair of mating porcupines on their lap. Now, I suspect the blokes that made comments about my knitting on the train in GB had sat next to their grandmothers as children; and had been poked by the DPN as their grandmothers knit jumpers. Those blokes probably had good reason to think there was something rude about knitting in public. On the other hand, Californians do not make comments about my knitting, because as children, they never had to sit next to flailing DPN. Moreover, in the old days, yarn may not have been so clean. Sheep farms and wool mills were not traditionally clean places, and who knew where the yarn had been. Working with yarn of unknown cleanliness in a pub around food and drink, or leaving lint in public spaces would have not make knitters too popular. But, now we have circular needles and single point flexible needles, so public safety is not so much an issue. Now, we have cleaner yarns. So I no longer see valid reasons for not knitting in public. But, I do understand the cultural bias against knitting in public. There was a time when it had a practical basis. Aaron "Mirjam Bruck-Cohen" wrote in message ... Well Aaron , A "Woman knitting Over there !!! is usually not so kindly meant , now adays , i think that is one thing That the Feministic movement failed, It used to be the Acepted thing to knit, or handcraft [ Idel habds etc,,,,] Than Suddenly it became unacceted or a something only "primitive women did !!! Educated women Didn`t !!!!" .I am getting so many people reacting to my knitting on trains , busses , Waiting rooms , etc,,,,, that i know it is an odity ,,,, Almost like Breast feeding in public, Used to be done only by "Primitive women" than became Done by all who felt like doing it. Nobody now in Westen world would say a woman breast feeding is Primitive ..... So i really feel it is time Public knitting or crafting should be accepted again. The last woman who commented to me about this being "primitive" , got an answer that my clothes Primitively better looking than her`s ,,,, i am loosing ,my patience for all the strange remarks of people ,,,, who don`t mind other writing on their laptops, or listening to music , or phoning with half the world talking about Personal stuff in public ... If this is tolerated , why isn`t my handcrafting tolerated ..... As to fellows saying something about Knitting Men ? well it is still an odity ,,, Do it more and spread the Stiches mirjam I have heard blokes say, ''blimey, there's a woman knitting over there!'' However, usually the tone when they say that is not as bad as when they say ''BLIMEY, there's a MAN knitting over there!!!'', which is what I hear more often : ) Aaron "spinninglilac" wrote in message .uk... Hi Mirjam, I took some sock knitting to the pub a couple of times, if I can get the seat near the door, where it isn't so smokey, and once I heard a guy say to his friend at the bar, ''blimey, theres a woman knitting over there!'' so I went to him and said, ''you're knowledge astounds me, that you know what I am doing, a pity you seem to lack tact, however, no matter, would you like to come and learn!'' he looked at me as if I'd gone mad, and Don the landlord, grinned,and said, ''she does many a weird and wonderful thing in a pub, wait til next week, come and see what she's doing then!'' Meaning I was booked to entertain there and this guy obviously had never seen me perform, but he turned up, and of course I ''got'' at him all night, now we are very good friends. He isn't very old, but I feel he's been educated, in tact if nothing else.. hugz cher "Mirjam Bruck-Cohen" wrote in message ... Cher and Katherine , I ALWAYS take some work with me , whenm i travel anywhere and esp when i travel to Belgium ,,, My Aquaintances who wonder , where i have the time to have knitted or embroidered `ALL THIS THINGS` , are surprised to hear i do it on those `moments in between`,,, in the airport in the bus , in the morning at my father`s house Before he gets up , on his pace, or in the evenings when he goes earlier to bed... Never mind how much i make ,,,,, "A stich + A Stich = A row + Row and before you know it , i have an other nice item.....I also go to some conventions, and i really hate this long Listening to lectures that sometimes, as interesting as they are , make me sleepy or edgy ,,, my hand could knit or embroider but people Look at me with THIS LOOK , same people don`t hesitate to Talk in Half Loud voices which are far more disruptive to other than my quiet knitting ... I am really seriously considering starting to knit/embroider again in public ,,,,, mirjam They'll laugh the other side of their faces when you produce the wonderful items that you do... hugz cher have a great time... |
#45
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A long history of knitting in public, was Help with old english knitting directions
THank you Wooly for adding this insight.
mirjam I think there's got to be some generational gappage going on somewhere. When I was growing up women my mother's age (post-WW2 children) didn't knit/crochet/sew yadda yadda because it was inconvenient. They were working women and could purchase made things. I learned crochet, knitting, embroidery, tatting and rudimentary sewing from my granny, who was born in 1919 and remembers quite well the prospect of going naked or making it oneself. I have several books containing photos of "generic British women" going about their daily business with knitting in hand - usually on foot or perhaps riding on the back of a cart bound for market. They're using long needles, sure, but they're not stacked like sardines in the Tube doing it, either. Speaking of Tube Sardines, I wonder how that bloke's foot is who tried to feel me up in the District Line ... I mashed his instep fair and square and didn't he yelp, too! +++++++++++++ Reply to the list as I do not publish an email address to USENET. This practice has cut my spam by more than 95%. Of course, I did have to abandon a perfectly good email account... |
#47
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A long history of knitting in public, was Help with old english knitting directions
The Only dangerous thing i find about knitting with DPS in public , is
Loosing them. Have knitted on circulars for so many years that i can`t remember when i didn`t. Since i knit in one piece, the part where i use Dps [ middle to cuff of sleeves] is already too big to be worked on in a bus , or such place. Even if some of those remarks that i hear aren`t kind i would never think they are deragotory...I see it more as signs of Changing Socail Behaviours. mirjam |
#48
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A long history of knitting in public, was Help with old english knitting directions
I have a stash of needles that includes my mother's needles. In all of
this there is one longish steel double point. I don't know if it was originally hers or whether she got it from someone. (for time reference - mother was born in 1902) I actually use it quite often as I find it useful when I am doing cables - I know that sounds silly but I am used to using it and it works for me. It is longer than my regular double points but not extremely long - probably around 10 inches or so. I don't remember seeing mother use it and I don't know if she ever had a set of dps that length. The only wooden or bamboo needles I have are those I have acquired or made - mostly within the last 15 to 20 years. There are some older casein (sp?) needles etc in the older stuff. I don't think mother saved much in the way of prewar needles - she did have some nice older thimbles in her sewing stuff though. (Those got distributed to various female family members when her stuff was sorted when she moved to the nursing facility.) DH doesn't remember about his mother - too bad as she was more of a knitter than mine was. (Mine was too busy playing sports - golfed well into her 80's) |
#49
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A long history of knitting in public, was Help with old english knitting directions
I had to use the instep smash manuver in the Paris Metro once. It
seems to be effective. I think the recipient was truly surprised that he wasn't allowed to get away with his unacceptable behavior. (In those days I wore heels too - which may have helped.) |
#50
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A long history of knitting in public, was Help with old english knitting directions
snip snip
There was a time when I took my knitting to parties, and BBQs, pubs, and other places where people were eating and drinking. Then I bought a bunch of Reynolds's Lopi. It knitted fine, and made great ski hats and ski socks. I did not realize how dirty the yarn was until I washed those socks for blocking. The nasty stuff in the bottom of the wash tub was an eye opener. So, even today, there is the possibility of dirty yarn. Now, I wash my hands after working with yarn. And, I wash my knitting before I wear it. Period! When I travel, I carry alcohol wipes that I use after knitting and before eating or drinking. And, I certainly do not knit around food or drink. Now! What mother among you is going to tell me not to wash my hands after working with wool? It may not help, but it can not hurt! Aaron snip snip Aaron nothing wrong with washing your hands anytime, LOL. I am sure that each and every knitter will wash and block there knitting. Just like I will always wash my spinning and also wash and press my weaving. That is done as the finishing process, always. I am also sure that yarns are not clean when you buy them. They have been everywhere so I will not dispute that. I was just saying that the original dirt and oil from an unwashed fleece is no longer there when you start to knit with it. It may have industrial oil from the factory, to aid in the spinning, or from the machinery, as well as any dirt that is picked up during the moving from A to B and finally to Z which is the knitter. But I am splitting hairs here. Happy Easter Aaron and keep on fibernating Els |
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