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Antique Jewelry



 
 
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  #11  
Old September 1st 09, 06:02 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
ted frater
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Posts: 133
Default Antique Jewelry

Peter W. Rowe wrote:
On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 10:30:08 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Ganesh
wrote:

This one's very easy to make
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:We...uvre_AC924.jpg


with modern tools and methods, yes. Doing it with starting raw materials and
tools available to the 7th century byzantine goldsmith might be a bit more
daunting. A ring like that, for example, likely was not cast, so one would need
to have some skill with chisels or engraving tools to do the carving, and the
steel back then wasn't as good, not to mention the fact that the goldsmith would
have had to make his own tools beforehand. Remember, files for shaping metal
were not yet available either. Most forming would be with hammers... And
you couldn't just go to your metals dealer and buy ready to use sheet or wire...

Also, the niello (black) inlay isn't quite as simple to do as might seem,
especially with ancient technologies. Doable? certainly. But I think I'd take
the word "very" out from your sentance...

Peter


An interesting question,
how easy was it for a 7th cent Byzantine gold smith to make?

He could either,
have cast it,
or wrought it from a single piece of metal.or at least acouple of
pieces then soldered it together.

Considering the former first,
Casting of metals had been well established for at least 3000 yrs before
the 7th cent.
witnessed by the thousands of everyday cast bronze age artifacts that
have been found here in the UK and elsewhere
so my guess is it was cast first of all then chased up with chisels and
punches.
The intaglio design would have been cut with chisels and then with
punches.
A well established technique used in coin reverse punch making.
Look at this metalworking practice in the coinage of this period and
earlier to understand this process.. .
most medieval metal workers were multiskilled and drew on the
expertise in other metalworking areas.more then than we do today.

So was it wrought?
Considering how malleable gold is, it would be quite possible to take a
piece of alluvial gold and with hammers , punches, and just a bronze
mandrel form it first into a round disk with a upstand across the diameter.
This section could then have been pierced with a punch and stretched
over a mandrel to form the shank.
An intersting exercise would be to take a piece of lead to try and
replicate this way of forming this ring completly cold, ie without any heat.
Then when one was able to replicate this design in this way, do it again
in fine silver. then in gold.
As to the carat quality of the original ring ,
our assay office in london currently uses spectrographic analysis of
metal alloys using only the minutest quantity of the original metal.
Do you Peter get the annual Goldsmiths Review, published by the
Goldsmith s Co in London?
The current issue has an interesting study of the assay offices work in
a large forgery case of early English silver.
they run the assay offices in the UK.
They could tell exactly what the metal constituents were.
If the ring in question is fine gold it would be ductile enough to forge
up cold using the above technique.

The niello formula and inlay technique is well documented in Uppi
Untrachat's book on jewellery making through the ages.
Tho I havent looked at this book on my shelf for sometime.

Anyone have the time to run some trials?

Regards to all.
Ted
In Dorset
Uk










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  #12  
Old September 1st 09, 10:57 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
William Black
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Posts: 77
Default Antique Jewelry

Ted Frater wrote:


so my guess is it was cast first of all then chased up with chisels and
punches.
The intaglio design would have been cut with chisels and then with
punches.


I don't know when they invented gravers and chisels hard enough to work
metals and long lasting enough to be economic.

They're certainly in the medieval pictures in the British Museum
'Goldsmith's' book but I think all the earlier pictures show only punches.

A well established technique used in coin reverse punch making.
Look at this metalworking practice in the coinage of this period and
earlier to understand this process.. .
most medieval metal workers were multiskilled and drew on the
expertise in other metalworking areas.more then than we do today.


That's something to do with the goldsmiths being the leaders in the
'whitesmiths' group of skills.

They'd have spent a lot of time socialising with other people who worked
metals cold.

The current issue has an interesting study of the assay offices work in
a large forgery case of early English silver.


Assuming you're talking about what has become known as 'The
Ashley-Russell case, does anyone know who actually made that stuff?
It's all very good indeed.

--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.
  #13  
Old September 1st 09, 10:59 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W. Rowe[_2_]
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Posts: 115
Default Antique Jewelry

On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 22:02:27 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Ted Frater
wrote:

Do you Peter get the annual Goldsmiths Review, published by the
Goldsmith s Co in London?
The current issue has an interesting study of the assay offices work in
a large forgery case of early English silver.


No I don't. Hadn't heard of it before. Any idea what the cost is?

Peter
  #14  
Old September 2nd 09, 11:11 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
William Black
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Posts: 77
Default Antique Jewelry

Peter W. Rowe wrote:
On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 22:02:27 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Ted Frater
wrote:

Do you Peter get the annual Goldsmiths Review, published by the
Goldsmith s Co in London?
The current issue has an interesting study of the assay offices work in
a large forgery case of early English silver.


No I don't. Hadn't heard of it before. Any idea what the cost is?


Five pounds plus postage

Details here

http://www.thegoldsmiths.co.uk/theli...blications.htm


--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.
  #15  
Old September 2nd 09, 11:13 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
ted frater
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Posts: 133
Default Antique Jewelry

Peter W. Rowe wrote:
On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 22:02:27 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Ted Frater
wrote:

Do you Peter get the annual Goldsmiths Review, published by the
Goldsmith s Co in London?
The current issue has an interesting study of the assay offices work
a large forgery case of early English silver.


No I don't. Hadn't heard of it before. Any idea what the cost is?

Peter



Peter,

Google for ISSN 0953- 0355
Youll see the current issue.
This is the Annual report of the goldsmiths company
the livery co in the city of London.
They have the task of regulating the quality of all noble metal
jewellery, plate and objet de art made in the Uk.
they have this authority under the UK hall marking acts.
this annual review is a record of their annual work.
You might just be able to see the current copy at your local library.
Cost =A35.00 per annum.
If you can mail me off list your snail mail addres Ill see if they can
send you a complimentary copy.

Yes to Bill Black, the Ashley Russel case.
Of 120 fake boson's calls.
Ted.
  #16  
Old September 2nd 09, 06:42 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
William Black
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Posts: 77
Default Antique Jewelry

Ganesh wrote:

She is Maharani Jind Kaur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jind_Kaur) is
mother of Maharaja Duleep Singh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duleep_Singh) and
wife of Maharaja Ranjit Singh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranjit_Singh)


I've read a bit about her before, she's supposed to have worn the
Koh-i-Noor diamond in her navel.

That diamond is famously in the Jewel House at HM Tower of London.

The rest of the stuff is now almost certainly in the V&A, as I mentioned
previously.

In the unlikely event that it isn't then they'll certainly know what
happened to it all.

--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.
  #17  
Old September 5th 09, 06:10 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Ganesh
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Posts: 28
Default Antique Jewelry

On Sep 2, 10:42pm, William Black wrote:

Ganesh wrote:


She is Maharani Jind Kaur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jind_Kaur) is
mother of Maharaja Duleep Singh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duleep_Singh) and
wife of Maharaja Ranjit Singh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranjit_Singh)


I've read a bit about her before, she's supposed to have worn the
Koh-i-Noor diamond in her navel.


I do not know if she used to wear that around her navel never heard
about it. But it is heard that only with a women the stone can be safe
with.

Also, I think Maharaja Ranjit Singh
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranjit_Singh)
is the one who donated the gold that is
Golden temple at Amritsar covered with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Go...kal_Takhat.JPG
there are strange things heard about that stone.

  #18  
Old October 28th 09, 12:34 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Ganesh
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Posts: 28
Default Antique Jewelry

On Oct 10, 7:10 am, William Black wrote:

The last couple of times Indian millionaires bought bits of looted
Indian heritage and then tried to bring them back to India and give them
to the state the Indian government promptly announced that they'd be
charing the owner the full rate of import duty and local taxes.

So Indian millionaires seem to have stopped doing that...


Well, they are more interested in things like these if there is lot of
mileage associated with it. This necklace did not have lot of press
coverage and it seems not lot know she was the one originally
possessing the kohinoor.
  #19  
Old October 28th 09, 12:39 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Ganesh
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Posts: 28
Default Antique Jewelry

On Oct 10, 7:10 am, William Black wrote:

Ganesh wrote:


On Sep 2, 3:26pm, Ganesh wrote:

Possibly this necklace is getting auctioned on this 8th
http://tinyurl.com/ybnu4kn

wonder who's going to buy it... wish someone from India buys that


The last couple of times Indian millionaires bought bits of looted
Indian heritage and then tried to bring them back to India and give them
to the state the Indian government promptly announced that they'd be
charing the owner the full rate of import duty and local taxes.

So Indian millionaires seem to have stopped doing that...


Correction

Some one bought it "for 55,200 pounds, inclusive of Buyer's
Premium"

just check http://tinyurl.com/ybnu4kn

wonder who bought it
  #20  
Old October 29th 09, 06:55 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
William Black
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Posts: 77
Default Antique Jewelry

Ganesh wrote:
On Oct 10, 7:10 am, William Black wrote:

The last couple of times Indian millionaires bought bits of looted
Indian heritage and then tried to bring them back to India and give them
to the state the Indian government promptly announced that they'd be
charing the owner the full rate of import duty and local taxes.

So Indian millionaires seem to have stopped doing that...


Well, they are more interested in things like these if there is lot of
mileage associated with it. This necklace did not have lot of press
coverage and it seems not lot know she was the one originally
possessing the kohinoor.


Well both her and it feature in a best selling book...


--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.
 




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