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#11
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Jack Schmidling wrote:
"Peter W.. Rowe," Well, that's the 64 dollar question, Jack. The trouble is, so far as I know, such a marking has no standard meaning as part of a hallmark.... Ah... so. I googled for Rockford and found lots of stuff for sale and many of them had this mark. It seemed reasonable to assume that it was a standard and so I posed the question. I'd suggest not spending more time on that mark, but rather spend it trying to figure out what you've actually got..... I am pretty sure I know what I got as the magnet tells (enough) all. It was the mark that I wanted to understand. The strange answers I received are now explained by yours. Sometimes, "I don't know" is a really useful answer, especially coming from an expert. I am adding it to my project list to make new handles for them. js Jack, your last sentence, your going to make some new handles. Thinking ahead, that will be the easy bit for you as I guess you might be casting them out of silver. Very nice too. .. However have you thought about the real problem? that is of joining the handles to the blades? You will need to be quite sure how the existing handles are affixed to the blades. This may be the traditional way of using a blade extension called a tang that goes up inside a hollow in the handle and the gap between the two is filled with some kind of setting substance. Or there might not be a tang and the handle is silver soldered to the blade via a butt joint. now if it were me id try and get an xray image just to see whats inside of the handle area so what ever you do is not destructive. If you cant get an x ray, then this is where your jewellers saw will come in. Get some aluminium or lead soft sheet and make up some vice jaw covers. Clamp your knife blade inbetween, then using your jewellers saw cut though where the handle is joined to the blade all around the knife no more than 1/16th in deep. this will seperate the handle in such a way as to enable you to put it back if theres no way you can fix your new handles.. Once you see how the handle is fixed to the blade youll be able to invent a fixing method. If youve a tang then youll need to drill the new handle to accomodate this. whenever blades are joined to handles in the cutlery trade where ther blade is steel and the handle is a non ferrous metasl they arwe usually brazed together if theres no tang. If the handle is say bone or some other organic material then a tang is used either right through or partly through. If the handle is silver then they are usually made in 2 halfs being stamped from sheet between dies then silver brazed together. then the hollow handle is filled with a resinous pitch and the tang pushedinto this. Once set it holds well. however as many people have found out putting these handles into boiling water like in a dish washer the handles come off!. Ive had many to repair over the years. If it were me and I wanted to know how they were made as well as by whom, you say that the co could be just 30 miles away. how about calling them to check? if they did make them they might just have the records and tell you how the handles were put on as well as the info on the 12 DWTS.. I had to make some replica hub caps for a 1930 plymouth some years ago the makers name was inside an original I had as the pattern. I looked them up on the net and they were still in business! in your country. they were a great help tho the original dies were scrapped some years ago. |
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#12
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"Ted Frater" Jack, your last sentence, your going to make some new handles. Thinking ahead, that will be the easy bit for you as I guess you might be casting them out of silver. Very nice too. . However have you thought about the real problem? that is of joining the handles to the blades? As I mentioned in a previous message, it appears that the handles and knife/fork are made from a single piece of steel and silver plated. The handle is solid, as far as I can tell. What I was thinking of was to hold the knife end in a 4 jaw chuck and simply turn down the handle to a 1/4 round tang and insert this into a drilled hole in the new handle. If it were me and I wanted to know how they were made as well as by whom, you say that the co could be just 30 miles away. how about calling them to check? They have been out of business for decades as far as I can know. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com |
#13
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But back to the bacic qustion that started it all.... What does 12 DWT mean as part of a hallmark of plated silver. js The following is an excerpt from The Household Cyclopedia of General Information published in 1881. The assay of silver The general method of examining the purity of silver is by mixing it with a quantity of lead proportionate to the supposed portion of alloy; by testing this mixture, and afterwards weighing the remaining button of silver. This is the same process as refining silver by cupellation. It is supposed that the mass of silver to be examined consists of 12 equal parts, called penny-weights, so that if an ingot weighs 1 oz., each of the parts will be 1-12th oz. Hence, if the mass of silver be pure, it is called silver of 12 dwts.; if it contain 1-12th of its weight of alloy, it is called silver of 11 dwts.; if 2-12ths of its weight be alloy it is called silver of 10 dwts, which parts of pure silver are galled 5 dwts. It must be observed here that assayers give the name cwt. to a weight equal to 24 real grs., which must not be confounded with their ideal weight. The assayers' grs. are galled fine grs. An ingot of fine silver, or silver of 12 dwts., contains, then, 288 fine grs.; if this ingot contain 1-288th of alloy, it is said to be silver of 11 dwts. and 23 grs.; if it contain 4-288th of alloy, it is said to be 11 dwts, 20 grs., etc. Now a certain real weight must be taken to represent the assay-weights; for instance, 36 real grs. represent 12 fine dwts.; this is subdivided into a sufficient number of other smaller weights, which also represent fractions of fine dwts. and grs. Thus, 18 real grs. represent 6 fine dwts, 3 real grs. represent 1 fine dwt., or 24 grs.; 1 1/2 real grs. represent 12 grs.; 1- 32d of a real gr. represents 1/4 of a fine gr., which is only 1-752d part of a mass of 12 cwt. |
#14
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The more that explained, the less I understood!
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#15
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maybe this will help too;
http://freespace.virgin.net/a.data/table.htm Carl 1 Lucky Texan Bill Kuykendall wrote: The more that explained, the less I understood! -- to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net) |
#16
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On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 22:38:26 -0700, in |õ "Bill Kuykendall" wrote:
The more that explained, the less I understood! The confusion, mine as well, originates perhaps from the fact that in current usage, the troy weight system specifies 20 pennyweight per ounce, not 12. So this quoted specification o 12 pennyweight meaning pure silver, is a new and inconsistant (to modern usage of the term) twist... It makes me wonder if this is simply an entirely different definition of the word pennyweight, rather than any relationship to the troy weight system. Old english systems seem to do that on occasion... Witness the word Karat, versus the word Carat. Easily confused, yet totally different terms and systems. Peter |
#17
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Jack Schmidling wrote:
"Ted Frater" Jack, your last sentence, your going to make some new handles. Thinking ahead, that will be the easy bit for you as I guess you might be casting them out of silver. Very nice too. . However have you thought about the real problem? that is of joining the handles to the blades? As I mentioned in a previous message, it appears that the handles and knife/fork are made from a single piece of steel and silver plated. The handle is solid, as far as I can tell. What I was thinking of was to hold the knife end in a 4 jaw chuck and simply turn down the handle to a 1/4 round tang and insert this into a drilled hole in the new handle. If it were me and I wanted to know how they were made as well as by whom, you say that the co could be just 30 miles away. how about calling them to check? They have been out of business for decades as far as I can know. js If as you say the handle is solid then Id do the same as you. turn it down in a lathe ensuring the tang was central to the knife blade.. Id also cut off as much of the handle needed to leave say a 2 in tang. Id also put a center into the handle end and support that in a running center as the knife blade is likely to be not strong wenough to take the cutting load. |
#18
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"Ted Frater" Id also put a center into the handle end and support that in a running center as the knife blade is likely to be not strong wenough to take the cutting load. I guess I was talking faster than I was thinking.. there is also the fork to deal with. I might just be easier to rough cut it with the band saw and then round it on the belt sander. If I need a better fit I could then put it in the lathe to touch up. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com |
#19
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Jack Schmidling wrote:
"Ted Frater" Id also put a center into the handle end and support that in a running center as the knife blade is likely to be not strong wenough to take the cutting load. I guess I was talking faster than I was thinking.. there is also the fork to deal with. I might just be easier to rough cut it with the band saw and then round it on the belt sander. If I need a better fit I could then put it in the lathe to touch up. js Holding a fork in a 4 jaw lathe chuck could be difficult. how about using say a 3in long by what ever the width the fork is across the tines piece of medium hard square wood. Put the fork edgeon top of the wood with the shank down the centerline of the wood and draw around it. then go to your band saw and cut out the wood between the lines. This would then be the holder for the fork in the 4 jaw chuck. youd then be able to safely hold and turn the shank assuming you put a center in the shank end. Take a small cut if the metal above the tines is thin. you dont want to twist it off!. Im currently trying to get a 7in by 3.5in cast iron pulley off a 1 1/4 shaft. siezed on( been there 50 years!) Will have to heat it red hot. Need to change the bearings. |
#20
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