A necklace I am proud of :)

HareBall wrote:
Abrasha wrote in
:

SNIPPED

One day, a few days after I had received a DM .25 raise, and the day
after I had screwed up a part of a major bracelet he had to take to a
show in Duesseldorf, for which he was to leave in a few days, I came to
work in his shop and found a note on my bench. It said something like,
"You last chance to get it right. You screw up again, you're out".


So basically you are saying you made the parts for some other artist's art.


No, I'm not saying that at all. I made the entire bracelet in question.
I had just screwed up a part of it, which I had to do over again.

Yo don't seem to even have a basic understanding of how art is produced.
If you think that artist, be it painters, sculptors or goldsmiths all
execute their all of their own designs you are woefully uneducated and
ignorant.

I suggest you hit the history books and read a bit about Rembrandt,
Cellini, Chagall and many others throughout history.


If it was his why did you make anything for it?


Because he designed more than he could produce himself with his own two
hands. He worked the same way artists have worked for many centuries.

Don't sound to me like he
had any talent if he was relying on you to make HIS art.


You are an ignoramus of biblical proportions, who talks of things he
knows absolutely nothing about. Klaus Ullrich was one of Germany's most
important post world war II jewelry innovators and designers. He was
held in the greatest regard by all his peers, and students.

BTW, Rembrandt was relying on others to make his art, as well as many
other artists throughout history.




How's that for coddled?

The bottom line is. Germans produce great craftsmen. The
apprenticeship program at Mercedes Benz at the time was legendary.


Yeah and now they build Chryslers. BFD


It is a big ****ing deal! Because it shows the incompetence of the
American society to produce anything of value and quality any longer.
And a lot of it relates to craftsmanship and the production of crap like
what this thread is all about.

But why would you care, after all you shop at Wallmart, where everything
is cheap. The trouble is, that America has sold it's soul to Wallmart,
where pretty soon, if not already, you can buy that "pretty necklace"
for even less that the "proud" maker charges for it.

It used to be Germany and Japan. Now it's China. Did you read the
paper yesterday. If you haven't noticed, it said that Henry Ford rolled
over in his grave. Or was it something about 30,000 people losing their
jobs?

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Hareball wrote:

So basically you are saying you made the parts for some other artist's art.
If it was his why did you make anything for it? Don't sound to me like he
had any talent if he was relying on you to make HIS art.


You cannot be this ignorant, PLEASE tell me I'm dreaming
Go read a goddamned book, will you?


-- m3rma1d
--
To reply in email, carefully remove my panties.
www.creativespill.com (Now over a year without updates!)
www.creativespill.com/a_few_new/pieces.html (They were new.. 10+ months
ago!)

Larry S. wrote:

So basically you are saying you made the parts for some other artist's art.
If it was his why did you make anything for it? Don't sound to me like he
had any talent if he was relying on you to make HIS art.

Sorry Larry your just showing how little you know about art and how it has
been produced for hundreds of years. If your going to attack someone like
that you really should make sure you know what you are talking about.

Great artists have always used assistants, aprentices and pupils to help in
the production of their work.
examples in no particular order a Michael Angelo, Leonardo da Vinci,
Rubens, Goya, Cezanne, Monet, Manet, Renoir, Constable, Turner, Jasper
Johns, Henry Moore, Anthony Caro, Raphael, Andy Warhol, etc. etc. etc.

All these artists used assistants in much the same kind of way as Klaus
Ullrich used Abrash and people like him. Its not a secret, these artists
weren't passing of their assistants' work and ideas as their own. The only
people who don't know about it are those who have a very small knowledge
about art, how it is produced, its history and so on.

I don't know much about sport of any kind, still less about American based
sports like Baseball. I've heard about Babe Ruth and without a book or the
help of Google that's as far as I can go.

Now I think I have every right to say that I think baseball is not
interesting to me. (actually I don't have any views about it one way or the
other.) However if I say that I think that baseball players are a bunch of
talantless guys who have trainers and coaches and people who talk tacticsto
them and watch their diet and do all the difficult clever stuff then not
many people, especially those who know about baseball would have very little
respect or interest in what I had to say from then on. That's what you just
did.

Klause Ullrich showed how much integrity he had by the way he insisted on
Abrasha doing the work again. That's rather like an architect insisting on
things being done the way he designed them. It doesn't mean that an
architect is without talent because he can't lay bricks or doesn't do the
plumbing.

Your remark was a cheap shot followed by another one about BMW. That one
proved you didn't read what Abrasha said in his posting either.

The bottom line is. Germans produce great craftsmen. The
apprenticeship program at Mercedes Benz AT THE TIME was legendary.

For what its worth, I think some of the things Abrasha says are way over the
top, even cruel at times often offensive, but he, and the person who taught
him, deserve more than cheap shots like this.

Kendall

Abrasha wrote in
:

then announce in the newsgroup
that (s)he is proud of his (her) accomplishment.


And yet you are seemingly so insecure as to feel the need to
denigrate someone so pathetic. Doesn't that make you feel oh so
superior. What harm does it do you to have infantile effort given a
little head patting encouragment?

--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 04:04:42 GMT, Abrasha wrote:

It is in fact a sad statement, that anyone who is older than maybe 3 to
5 years and out of diapers, would take the trouble to put a necklace
like that online, than take the trouble to subscribe to a newsgroup to
which (s)he has never posted before and then announce in the newsgroup
that (s)he is proud of his (her) accomplishment.

It would have been entirely appropriate in rec.crafts.beads, so it's
not all newsgroups.
--
Marilee J. Layman
http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjlayman

"m3rma1d" wrote in
:

Hareball wrote:

So basically you are saying you made the parts for some other artist's
art.
If it was his why did you make anything for it? Don't sound to me like
he
had any talent if he was relying on you to make HIS art.


You cannot be this ignorant, PLEASE tell me I'm dreaming
Go read a goddamned book, will you?


-- m3rma1d
--
To reply in email, carefully remove my panties.
www.creativespill.com (Now over a year without updates!)
www.creativespill.com/a_few_new/pieces.html (They were new.. 10+ months
ago!)



Why so I can be as smartassed as you. Talk about ignorant, if you are the
one making this stuff, why would you want someone else claiming your work
as his. Where I come from this is called plagerism.
Oh and by the way, I looked at your website. Not impressed with the photos
or jewelry.

--
Larry S.
TS 52

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 22:22:55 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry HareBall
wrote:

Why so I can be as smartassed as you. Talk about ignorant, if you are the
one making this stuff, why would you want someone else claiming your work
as his. Where I come from this is called plagerism.
Oh and by the way, I looked at your website. Not impressed with the photos
or jewelry.

Larry,

It's painfully clear that you don't fully understand the nature of the
relationships going on here.

Artist design the work.

Artist either makes it, or has it made, or gets help making parts of it, or some
combination thereof.

The key point is that the design work, and the original thinking behind the
piece, is the work of the artist, the guy in charge. The hand work is the
craftsmanship involved, not the artistry.

In the case of Abrasha's former situation, he was an the same as an employee.

He did that mans work for two reasons. One, is that although that designer and
artist could easily have done the work himself, for efficiency sake, he had
employees or aprentices. These people then did the work under that man's
direction. The designs were not Abrasha's but were those of the artist, who
then rightfully put his own name or hallmark on the work. The artist gains
efficiency by having more than just his own hands at work on his designs.In
most such situations, the process, even when done by the emplyee or apprentice,
is tightly controlled and monitored by the artist. The craftsperson is
following his given directions as closely as possible. Thus there is no issue
of plagiarism on the part of the artist. The craftsperson does not claimthe
work as his own art work, only that he had a hand in it's production. This is
rather like an author who has a secretary type his work from his handwritten
manuscript. There is no question of who's creative work it is, even if the
hands that actually type the thing are not the authors.

You ask why a craftsperson would do this sort of work? Sheesh. That's obvious.
It's a job. You get paid for it. Plus, if an apprenticeship position, you get
the experience of working under the direction of the more experienced master
craftsman. it's great training. You're not doing your own work, but yousure
are learning a lot, and you get paid for it.

To further illustrate. In a number of fine jewelry stores around the country,
you can find fine "designer" jewelry by Brian Sholdt, of Sholdt designs in
Seattle. (www.Sholdtdesign.com). in the "about us" link you'll see Brianand
Dusty Sholdt, the two brothers who own the place, and Brian's son Tyler, who's
learning the ropes of the business. Tyler has hardly ever picked up an actual
tool, but handles sales, marketing, office tasks, management stuff, and the
like. Nice kid. Dusty handles the commercial trade work side of the business,
which does trade shop work for other jewelry stores around town. He has a
little bit of bench work experience, enough to understand the process, and he's
great at managing that end of the business, dealing with customers, and pricing
jobs, etc. Brian is the designer. The firms line of jewelry, which you can see
on the web page, is almost all his design work. His bench experience is mostly
some wax carving experience, and now, learning to run the new CAD/CAM milling
system, so he's still carving waxes. He too understands the process fully, but
is not, himself, a metal working craftsman. Not pictured or mentioned atall on
the web site, are the other dozen or so folks who work there.

Of which, I'm one, as you may by now have guessed. We handle the actual
production of the work, under the supervision of the Sholdt brothers, whodirect
the design work. While we, who produce the work, may suggest alterationsand
changes and suggestions to improve a design or the process, we don't do this
without checking first with Brian, at least not on his line of work, or Dusty,
on jobs being done for the trade shop side of the business. My own particular
niche in the business is as a specialist in hand made items, especially in
platinum or 18K gold. This includes limited edition things, some things we make
for the line that simply are better to make individually by hand instead of
casting, and the true custom one of a kind items, both for the "line" andfor
specific customers. I have a fine and extensive arts training, holding a
master of fine arts degree from Tyler School of art in Philadelphia, and other
degrees and experience too. My training and ability as an artist makes it
possible for me to fully understand what Brian or another designer of a piece
I'm making, intends, and to properly interpret their idea to produce whatthey
had in mind. The designs are Brians, and it is his trademark that goes on the
work when I'm done, not mine. When I feel satisfaction over the job I'vedone,
it is not satisfaction over my own great artistic production, but for my
craftsmanship in executing the work. Even though Brian probably could not have
sat down at my bench and done the work with his own hands, not having quite my
skills, the work remains his art work. This is the industry norm, and the norm
in much of the art world. While there is nothing to say an artist cannotdo his
own work, and many do all or part of it, in many of the branches of the fine
arts, and especially the so-called "crafts", it's common for an artist,
especially once successful and established, to have a workshop of other people
doing some or all of the actual production work. Nobody is committing
plagiarism here, unless of course Brian is copying the work of someone else in
his designs.

Now, you'll wonder why do I, with all my training, do this work for Brian
instead of establishing myself on my own and doing my own designs and artwork?
Well, for one, I've proven to myself several times that I'm a lousy businessman,
and not much better as a salesman. I DO my own art work, when I come home to my
home workshop, but I don't make much money at it, partially because my output
isn't that much (hell, I'm often too tired when i come home to want to go
downstairs and make yet more jewelry, even if it IS my own designs), and partly
because I'm simply not much good at marketing and promoting my work. So I'm
just fine with working for someone else. It provides me with some thingsI
cannot provide for myself quite as well, were I self employed. Good health
insurance is one key one, for example (and a very big part of why my career took
this particular path instead of learning the business and marketing stuff). As
an insulin dependent diabetic since the age of 16, I simply cannot, and never
have been able to not, safely exist without good health insurance. Without it,
I'd have been bankrupt or dead several times over allready. And until recent
years, it has always been almost impossible for me to even find insurance
offered to me outside of an employee benefit package from an employer. Even
now, with newer laws making it possible for me to buy coverage if I had to,
what's available is less good coverage, and astronomically priced. In
addition to the health coverage, I also gain a weekly reliable paycheck. Not a
great one, but a reliable one. There whether or not the firm sells a bunch of
jewelry that week. I kinda like that security. And other usual emplyee
benefits. I'm not getting rich by any means. But I'm able to own my ownhome,
and live my life. This works fairly well for me. And frankly, during the day,
it's kind of nice to be working alongside a bunch of other professionals,rather
than working alone in my own workshop all the time.

At work, I'm a craftsman, not an artist. At home, when I choose, I'm both an
artist and a craftsman. When doing work totally of my own design, for whatever
reason, I consider myself an artist, and sign my work as such. But like at
work, some of what I do when on my own time, is work for other artists. These
are often fine craftspeople and fine artists, but perhaps some aspect of the
craft is something they are not specialists at. One common example is stone
setting. I'm a rather good stone setter. Many artists doing jewelry work are
not specialists at stone setting, so they'll design and make the piece and then
have some specialist set the stones for them. Another example is technical. i
happen to be the proud owner of a laser welder. It's capable of some types of
joining that conventional methods cannot do. Some local artists who've not sunk
a second mortgage into the cost of a laser welder, instead pay me to do it for
them. The result is an improvement in the end quality of the work for the
artist, and financial gain for me. I'm quite happy to supplement my work
derived income by "outside" work of this sort, and the artists, some of them
very fine jewelers and recognized artists in their own right, are happy to
employ my help in these aspects of their work. And when I'm not doing any of
the above, I'm your newsgroup moderator...

Abrasha, when working for professor Ullrich, enjoyed the same sort of
relationship. He got paid, and he learned a lot, valuable experience that
clearnly shows up in the precision and skill of his current work, which IS his
own. . Under professor Ullrich, He made art, but not his own art. and that's
quite OK. It's the way it often works. both parties to the relationship
benefit from it. Nobody is committing plagiarism on any level in this sort of
arrangement.

Peter Rowe

Abrasha wrote in
:

HareBall wrote:
Abrasha wrote in
:

SNIPPED

One day, a few days after I had received a DM .25 raise, and the day
after I had screwed up a part of a major bracelet he had to take to a
show in Duesseldorf, for which he was to leave in a few days, I came
to

work in his shop and found a note on my bench. It said something
like,

"You last chance to get it right. You screw up again, you're out".


So basically you are saying you made the parts for some other
artist's
art.


No, I'm not saying that at all. I made the entire bracelet in
question.
I had just screwed up a part of it, which I had to do over again.

Yo don't seem to even have a basic understanding of how art is
produced.


I just know that if I am going to claim something as mine, I am going to
make it myself.


If you think that artist, be it painters, sculptors or goldsmiths
all
execute their all of their own designs you are woefully uneducated and
ignorant.

I suggest you hit the history books and read a bit about Rembrandt,
Cellini, Chagall and many others throughout history.


If it was his why did you make anything for it?


Because he designed more than he could produce himself with his own
two hands. He worked the same way artists have worked for many
centuries.

Don't sound to me like he
had any talent if he was relying on you to make HIS art.


You are an ignoramus of biblical proportions, who talks of things he
knows absolutely nothing about. Klaus Ullrich was one of Germany's
most important post world war II jewelry innovators and designers. He
was held in the greatest regard by all his peers, and students.

BTW, Rembrandt was relying on others to make his art, as well as many
other artists throughout history.




How's that for coddled?

The bottom line is. Germans produce great craftsmen. The
apprenticeship program at Mercedes Benz at the time was legendary.


Yeah and now they build Chryslers. BFD


It is a big ****ing deal! Because it shows the incompetence of the
American society to produce anything of value and quality any longer.
And a lot of it relates to craftsmanship and the production of crap
like what this thread is all about.


You seem to like living here.
If hitlers homeland is so wonderful why don't you take your ass back.


But why would you care, after all you shop at Wallmart, where
everything is cheap. The trouble is, that America has sold it's soul
to Wallmart, where pretty soon, if not already, you can buy that
"pretty necklace" for even less that the "proud" maker charges for it.

So I guess you never go places to get the best value for your dollar?
Where do you buy the things you need for day to day living? Personally I
haven't been to Walmart for quite awhile, but if they theyu have the
best price for what I need that is where I am going to go. I think that
Sam Walton was a very good business man. So good in fact that he was
able to leave this earth and the ones inhereting his fortune are in the
top 10 richest people in this country. What are you going to leave
behind when you go? A few pieces of jewelry that you yourself have said
you can't sell?



It used to be Germany and Japan. Now it's China. Did you read the
paper yesterday. If you haven't noticed, it said that Henry Ford
rolled over in his grave. Or was it something about 30,000 people
losing their jobs?

Then you better run home to the homeland, so you have someone that wants
your junk.



--
Larry S.
TS 52

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:16:19 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry HareBall
wrote:



I just know that if I am going to claim something as mine, I am going to
make it myself.



think of it this way, dude. If I make jewelry, no doubt I'm making it using
tools in my hands to manipulate the metal. An employee is merely another tool,
perhaps a more capable one, being manipulated by the designer.

Now, if you've got a problem with tools being anything more complex than a pair
of pliers, how do you feel about a lathe, where much of the precision is gained
because of the tools inherent precision over doing it by hand with a fileand
saw? or how about extending the tool even further to the use of CAD/CAM
technologies? Some of the most respected fine arts programs in the arts
schools today are exploring the use of computer aided design and manufacturing.
In these technologies, artist manipulate keyboards and mice and software.
Machines then produce the objects, often with minimal actual work by the artist.
These people are justly proud of their work too, even though a machine did most
of the actual production under the control of a computer. For examples of some
fine work being done, even at just the student level, this way, go see the web
site at Tyler School of art (my old alma mater, which has now converted their
graduate level training program almost totally to CAD/CAM and rapid prototyping
technologies. http://www.temple.edu/crafts/ Another exampe is the web site for
the 'virtual tangibles" show, held in conjunction with last years SNAG
converence. Fine work in CAD/CAM embraced by the metals community as work of
their own people and philosophy, even if much of it is no longer made of actual
metal. The exhibitors range from long time pioneers and established artists in
the field, to recent student graduates in the field. www.VirtualTangible.com

So tell me, Larry, how is it any different for an artist to emply a hand tool,
or a complex tool like a computer and RP machine, or an even more complextool
like an employee, to make their work? The artist is still the brain behind the
idea and the design.

You are free to prefer to do all your own work yourself. But please understand
that the art world in general, and the jewelry world in particular, don't agree
with your apparent opinion that work made with the assitance of others isany
less valid.




You seem to like living here.
If hitlers homeland is so wonderful why don't you take your ass back.



Oh Please. Grow up. You know, the newsgroup's rules prohibit direct personal
attacks. But statements like this sorely tempt me to make an exception for
those wishing to reply to junk like this. This is the kind of garbage that
makes me wonder whether you're posting here for real, or more as a Troll.


Then you better run home to the homeland, so you have someone that wants
your junk.

More garbage, unworthy of a serious discussion on the merits of an artists work.
This is the kind of garbage that tends to give Americans a bad reputationin the
minds of the rest of the world. Well suited to redneck late night comedyshows,
perhaps, but not to a serious discussion on the nature of art of jewelry work.
This is some seriously immature thinking. Defensive, argumentative, and makes
assumption that somehow Germany is some lesser place to be. In fact, their
history and heritage in the arts is millenia long, and public awareness of the
arts in europe is far higher than here in good old redneck backwoods U.S.A.
It's a shame to find U.S. attitudes represented by statements like this, when in
fact, the U.S. is also home to a very many fine artists and well educatedarts
patrons and teachers, most of whom would not likely wish to have much todo
with anyone displaying this sort of attitude.

OK. I'm beginning to dance around the limits of the same newsgroup restrictions
I'm instead supposed to enforce among all of you guys.

Please, Larry, don't tempt me any more. Anger isn't good for my health. And
you're making me angry with this crap you're spewing.

(Please note, regarding personal attacks, that I've tried hard in all this, to
attack only the statments and ideas expressed. Not the person. For those of
you wishing to respond to this type of thread, follow the same guidelines
please, to make my job as moderator easier. Attack ideas and statements,not
the people behind them. That keeps you within the bounds of the group charter.
No flame wars, but philosophical debates, no matter how heated, are stillon
topic.)

Peter Rowe

Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:


(Please note, regarding personal attacks, that I've tried hard in all this, to
attack only the statments and ideas expressed. Not the person. For those of
you wishing to respond to this type of thread, follow the same guidelines
please, to make my job as moderator easier. Attack ideas and statements, not
the people behind them. That keeps you within the bounds of the group charter.
No flame wars, but philosophical debates, no matter how heated, are still on
topic.)

Peter Rowe

With all due respect Peter, when one is dealing and debating with a
Neanderthal, personal attacks are the only hope for your survival. In
the real world as well as in news groups. Otherwise, they will just
kill you. Every time and all the time. It's the law of the jungle.
You can't escape it.

Since you are not willing to allow that, the only other alternative is
to just let it go. Get out of the way and let the beast roar.
Eventually it will pass.

You are not going to convince this intellectual lightweight, whose belt
clearly doesn't go through all his loops, of anything, or make him
change his feeble mind about anything.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com