A necklace I am proud of :)

Charlie wrote:
Sale and return, but I've been having good sales so far. Think I couldgo
full time by the end of the year if I can find a studio and get a couple
more galleries!

Charlie.

"Ted Frater" wrote in message
...
Charlie wrote:

Charlie. (I'm in three galleries and counting... does that make me a
professional?)

It depends,
have the galleries paid you for the work?
or
is it on sale or return?
or
were they comissions from them?

Only if youve been at it at least a few years
and you do it full time
and you earn a living from it ,
and the galleries are buying from you,
then maybe you might be a professional.
If its on sale or return your giving the galleries items
to fill their shelf display case space at no cost to them.
only you
. If theve bought it your part of the way there.
Otherwise no.






Good to hear your making progress.
Bear in mind If you get your own studio, in the right place so
customers come to you, youll be in competition with your current
gallery outlets.
however if you design, make and market your own work in your own space
youll have all the work but youll make all the profit.
If you have your own studion full with your work it will create a better
impression than if your in a gallery with other craftspeople.
you need to be good at all the skills. you might just prefer to make
instead of marketing as well.
How do you see this way working for you?
In other words atre you up to it?

HareBall wrote in
:

"likedo" wrote in
:

I just joined this group ....what is happening to this world?
Just simple respect for each other and for each individuals
capabilities and knowledge would be nice !

We are all different but not one of us is superior to the other.
We all
create differently and what we create will appeal to different
people.
Isn't that a good thing ...wouldn't it be boring if we all had
the same
likes and dislikes...it's what makes our life a challenge...

When looking around at other peoples creations , I might not like
what
I see ...but I still have respect for the person and what they
have
made.
There will always be someone out there who likes what you've
made.
But as a store owner I know that a negative attitude doesn't sell
stuff
!!
Remain positive , love what you make and have respect for what
others
make ....bad vibes travel a lot faster and further than good ones
......
I suggest working on the good ones !




You haven't been around USNET long have you?
There are certain people that will run down most anything you post
and
think they have the most wonderful things(even if they look like
machine
pieces).


In Ireland they're called begrudgers.

--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99

Well, I'd love to have a workshop in a centre with other artists so I don't
have to be on my own all the time! Living in deepest Wales means that I
won't be too much competition for my galleries anyway as they're spread
across the country at the moment. My Dad and I are looking at going into
business together to open an artist cooperative with a gallery run by the
artists. Not a huge money spinner, but I guess it's better to be happy and
surviving than miserable and poor!

Charlie.

"Ted Frater" wrote in message
...
Charlie wrote:
Sale and return, but I've been having good sales so far. Think I couldgo
full time by the end of the year if I can find a studio and get a couple
more galleries!

Charlie.

"Ted Frater" wrote in message
...
Charlie wrote:

Charlie. (I'm in three galleries and counting... does that make me a
professional?)

It depends,
have the galleries paid you for the work?
or
is it on sale or return?
or
were they comissions from them?

Only if youve been at it at least a few years
and you do it full time
and you earn a living from it ,
and the galleries are buying from you,
then maybe you might be a professional.
If its on sale or return your giving the galleries items
to fill their shelf display case space at no cost to them.
only you
. If theve bought it your part of the way there.
Otherwise no.






Good to hear your making progress.
Bear in mind If you get your own studio, in the right place so
customers come to you, youll be in competition with your current
gallery outlets.
however if you design, make and market your own work in your own space
youll have all the work but youll make all the profit.
If you have your own studion full with your work it will create a better
impression than if your in a gallery with other craftspeople.
you need to be good at all the skills. you might just prefer to make
instead of marketing as well.
How do you see this way working for you?
In other words atre you up to it?

good and bad vibes

We all have the capacity to go for the jugular when we feel threatened,
our ego is offended, or even if we're just turned off by something. I'm
certainly no exception, so I'm writing this basically for myself, but
you can read it if you like.

It's a little known fact that humans tried unsuccessfully to
domesticate a skunk before they did a cat. ;-) First they taught him
not to use his scent glands indiscriminately. Then they trained him in
the arts and high culture and groomed him until he became well educated
and well respected among his peers for his many talents and wonderous
accomplishments.

But even when he was smiling and being all friendly and nice, he still
STANK, emitting a very subtle, but foul and smelly stink. He couldn't
help it anymore than being born with a white stripe down his back. And
that's why we have cats rather than skunks as pets! :-)

Whenever your selling jewelry, you're really selling yourself. So, it's
a good thing people aren't the same as skunks. We have the ability to
change our basic nature. By not acting on negative thoughts, that part
of our psychological "scent gland" will fade, grow weaker and demand
less attention from us; and thereby alienate and annoy far fewer
people.

-jdk-

At the risk of sounding overly simplistic, I just had an idea I wanted to
throw out.
It seems to me that the biggest obstacle in this situation is education of
the consumer. As the price of the piece is usually their biggest
consideration, I don't believe as much thought is given to the quality of
design, how well their purchase will hold up over time, or the comfort in
knowing that their piece of jewelry is a crafted work of art.
What I would propose is composition and posting of an additional FAQ,
reached through consensus of the professional jewelers in the group,
detailing the following:

1. Common myths and misconceptions that are propagated in the marketing of
jewelry in the retail outlets to goad toward a sale.

2. Shortcuts that are commonly made in the production of retail jewelry and
the long-term ramifications of them. (Poor channel setting, nickel-based
alloys, use of white gold over platinum, thin ring shanks, etc.)

3. Any other information that would enable the consumer to discern the
quality of his prospective purchase.

My ultimate hope would be that in the search for quality, beauty, and well
thought-out designs, the customer's search would inevitably lead them to
employing a professional's service.

I am a simple hobbyist with no sales experience, and I have always been
grateful to find advice here in the newsgroup. It really does break my heart
to see truly talented artists like Abrasha, as
well as all of the other gifted professionals, get caught in this situation.
I have a great deal of admiration for the professional jeweler. More to the
point, I admire anyone that has dedicated their life's work to creating
jewelry of both originality and lasting beauty.

Rich Rader

"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:00:44 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Marilee J.
Layman"
wrote:

snip of a thought-provoking post

So then.

Here's the question for the group.

How can someone like Abrasha, or other fine artists who's integrity and
skills
with their craft lead them to put quality first, and thus produce a really
high
end product, but in perhaps more limited quantitites, suceed in today's
marketplace? It's not enough to just have a good web site, since as anyone
who's looked at Abrasha's can see, he's done that part already. So what
else?

Peter Rowe

Mr. Rowe,
I have been interested in the lapidary arts for some time now and have been
privilaged to meet and learn from some fine people. I found your newsgroup,
read it with some regularity, and have learned more.

Some of the things I learned I really didn't want to know. [the thread A
necklace I am proud of]

Mr. Abrasha is a talented man from what I see on his web site, but
unfortunately we can't all go to school in Germany for two years and be
coddled by a master jeweler. Some of us have had to use other means to earn
a living and shiney things just keep calling us to try.

It seems strange for him to feel threatened by competition from such a low
level after reading his episile on his website, even if he does use
discarded CO2 cartriges.

The inclusion of "A Confession" really put the lid on my pot. I get the
feeling he should have signed it since it seems to express his ego so well.

Your how to comments to others have helped me and I will keep reading the
news.

Venting session is closed

Charlie
"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
news On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:02:59 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Abrasha
wrote:


I think I'm going to hang myself now, or maybe I'll just quietly slit my
wrists.

Oh no, I can't do that today, I have to make 60 chocolate covered
profiteroles for the school potluck tomorrow night.

Oh well, I'll kill myself the day after tomorrow over this "pretty
necklace" ****.

Sheesh.

Get off your high horse, will ya? It's better than that, not deserving of
such
scorn and derision and you should know it.

1. She's not representing herself as a trained fine artist, trained
jeweler, or
much of anything else like that. She's a hobbyist enjoying putting some
things
together for her own enjoyment. Starting just from scratch, without other
training and no actual intention of doing this as some major career path,
does
this not count as an enjoyable and valid thing to do? I have a sister in
law
who sews. Pretty well. Her quilts are wonderful. But she's also made
ordinary
stuff, including for me one year, a bathrobe of micro fleece. ****ty as a
bath
robe, because the micro fleece won't absorb water to dry you off after the
shower. But instead, it's a very warm house coat for those chilly evenings.
Powder blue may not be my best color, but I like the thing, and it's maker
did
it with the best of intentions. So I don't kill myself over the lack of a
major
fashion label in this bathrobe of mine. And you shouldn't kill yourself
because
some eager beginner produces a reasonably basic but decently enough made
wire
wrap and bead necklace. yeah, it's not great art. But I'm sure she likes
the
look when she wears it, and I'm sure her friends agree. I've seen stuff
I'd
consider a whole heck of a lot worse get actually sold commercially.

2. it's a darn sight better than "paint by numbers" level stuff or a kit
built
from instructions. It may not be earth shaking, art world turning,
revolutionary design, but at least she's not just following some printed
instructions found somewhere. or at least I don't think she is, or at
least,
not totally... or I dunno... Still it's a lot better than some I've seen.

3. it's usable, and though not fine art, as decorative as any of the
commercially made similar costume pieces with which many ordinary people are
quite happy to decorate themselves. it's a lot more decorative and useful
than
the kitschy beaded teddy bears someone else posted. Those, arguably, are
not
even jewelry. This most certainly is.

4. The posting links to a plain jpeg image on an otherwise plain page, just
as
I've repeatedly asked posters to do. it does not link to some commercialor
semi commercial page on a yahoo group or something. Surely this following
of
the group rules should be worth at least *Some* brownie points... And
remember,
nothing in the group's charter or history suggests it's only for seasoned
pros.
Beginners at any level have always been welcome along with the professionals
and
anyone in between.

And to Flic:

Don't pay attention to Abrasha. he often seems to criticize beginners who
come
along hoping for approval or help but who's skills and training, both
technically and aesthetically, don't seem to meet the high standards he sets
for
himself. Especially when that beginner is working with really basic methods
like beads on wire, etc. He's well known on usenet for this attitude,
which
can be difficult to comprehend for those who actually know him, since in
person,
he's actually a really nice and generally polite fellow, not to mention a
top
notch jewelry artist, and one of the finer craftsmen I've ever met. It's
kind
of a keyboard version of road rage, I think. He'll disagree perhaps, butmy
point is, don't let him scare you away or discourage you.

Yeah, your necklace won't win great awards as highly original art, but that
should surprise nobody, least of all you, given that you're new at this.
The
bit with double strands or more, or tassels in the middle, etc etc, have all
been done by other artists many times, for millennia. But that doesn't mean
it
doesn't still look nice, because it did millennia ago, and still does now.
The
color appears good on you, and you've not chosen a combination of colors
that
clash or something. So I'd overall agree with you that you did a nice job.
Now,
if I were doing it, I'd probably use actual gemstones, not glass beads. And
my
loops would be smaller and neater, and soldered shut or something, or I'd
come
up with some sort of much less visible joint or unusual mechanism design for
the
linkages. And of course, when done, there would be a few more zeros in the
price. So it goes. There are many such technical and design
possibilities,
many of which are within your capabilities even with limited tools and
equipment. But no matter. You've got time. Keep experimenting, one step
at a
time. And don't let the bad mouthed folks get you down. Get some good
books
on jewelry making and metal work. You can get some good ideas for some more
complex constructions that won't be so similar to everything other people
have
done. At the beginning, it's OK to mostly learn how to make your own
versions
of things others have done. But as quickly as you can, try to work out your
own
methods, so you're not just copying other peoples ideas you've seen. (I'm
not
saying you did this here, at least not intentionally. Just saying you
should
make an effort NOT to just do one yourself when you see something you like
from
someone else.)

Peter Rowe

who's indubitably stepping in something squishy with this post.
No matter. With the rain we've had here in Seattle since Christmas, soft
squishy ground seems the norm. And this time of year is slow enough I've
got
the time for some good entertaining yet silly discussions.

And to all. remember, personal attacks and flame wars are not allowed.
attacking ideas, or jewelry, is fine.

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 20:40:48 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Charlie Johns"
wrote:

Mr. Rowe,
I have been interested in the lapidary arts for some time now and have been
privilaged to meet and learn from some fine people. I found your newsgroup,
read it with some regularity, and have learned more.

I'm glad to hear that. But one short bit of clarification. It's not MY
newsgroup. I'm only the moderator. UJsenet newsgroups are, by definition,
public domain and public property. I do not own it. I just run it, and do so
at the pleasure and request of the readers, as a volunteer, not an owner.it
may seem like it's mine, since all posts have to come through me. But inthe
end, it's YOUR newsgroup.


Some of the things I learned I really didn't want to know. [the thread A
necklace I am proud of]

Perhaps. But it's also the liveliest and bisiest conversation the group has had
in a good long while. nerves getting touched means issues are real. Andthat
often means not everyone is pleased. Sometimes, nobody is pleased. But even
so, sometimes ideas worth expressing get floated around, and even angry people
can sometimes learn something of use, if they calm down enough to try andbe
objective about the issues.


Mr. Abrasha is a talented man from what I see on his web site, but
unfortunately we can't all go to school in Germany for two years and be
coddled by a master jeweler. Some of us have had to use other means to earn
a living and shiney things just keep calling us to try.

I should let him answer that, but I can assure you that coddling is the very
last word any of those masters or their students, would use to describe that
education. It's rigorous, highly competative, and a whole LOT of work to
complete. By the way, unlike here in the States, if you can get over tothe
jewelry school in Pfortzheim, tuition is free (at least I think it still is.).
You'd need living expenses, but unlike schools here with high tuitions,
difficult to get into, there the state pays for the school. Easy to get in, not
so easy to stay in. Don't know if this is fully still the case, or whether
there are residency requirements now, but this is how it used to be. It ends up
being somewhat easier to go get that education than some people think. Iknow
folks who've gone over there on a shoestring budget, barely speaking any German,
who've found ways to make it work. All depends on how high you set your sights,
and how much you want it.


It seems strange for him to feel threatened by competition from such a low
level after reading his episile on his website, even if he does use
discarded CO2 cartriges.


You know, this illustrates an interesting difference between art, and the
mundane. You're referring to the CO2 cartridges as though this was some
demeaning material. The thing is, it doesn't matter much what material we use
to create art (or jewelery, whether art or not), what matters is the thought and
creativity behind it. It's the ideas, not the material, that can really make a
work unique and stand apart from the pack. Those of us who've gone to art
school, here in the States or in Germany or elsewhere, spent a lot of time
learning the history of art, and the history of our craft, as well as the
technique, in order that we'd not then go spending time reinventing the wheel
and calling it ours It was drummed into us that originality of thought is
important, and that without that originality, the work is either worth less,
maybe far less, or even worthy only of the dirision leveled at plagiaristic
works when in written form. The public readily accepts that this is badwhen
an author copies the work of another, or a muscian copies the music of another
and tries to call it his (rather than an arrangement or something). Yet in
jewelry, many of these same people sometimes seem to even prefer works that are
staid and familar copies or reiterations of what's already been done, sometimes
countless times before. Some, even jewelers, including a few who've chimed in
on this thread, seem to think there's nothing new left to do, so that makes it
all OK. Those who've been trained in the arts, though, understand the
difference, and hold not just their own work, but that of others, to those
standards they've been taught.

And this creates problems. Since that means they're holding higher standards
than either the public, or many of their competitors. In the end, it canmean
that for all the high cost or hard work of a fine arts education, it can end up
almost being a commercial handicap, since if one is now bound to be original,
and works hard to avoid anything else, then one is playing within a smaller
field than the overall bunch of folks making things, and doing it with a bunch
of ethical inhibitions that their competition, and maybe even the public,
doesn't recognize.

it's a quandry in the art schools, who have trouble justifying the cost and time
of that education when the graduates thereof then seem to have a harder time
competing in the marketplace than those self taught folks who're really happy to
have learned the familiar stuff, and how to do this and that, and happilyset
about mass producing the workt that the public already knows, and is happy to
buy, while the artist sits by with his body of work that he's agonized for years
to develope, selling less because the public isn't quite ready to be that
advanced in it's thinking. it's an oddity to the jewelry field, since in
fashion or music, new is gobbled up as quickly as creative minds can dream it
up.

Please note, and this is IMPORTANT. I'm not trying at all to imply that those
people with less formal educational backgrounds are any less entitled tomake
whatever they wish, or have their work recognized. Most such people are working
as hard as anyone, and care about what they're doing. But it should be
recognized by all, that both parties are looking at this issue from theirown
perspectives, and they're complex ones. The beginners get defensive overtheir
percieved lack of more formal skills, while the more highly trained folksget
defensive over their apparent lack of commensurate sucess in relation to how
hard they've worked to get where they are. Both bodies of work, and their
makers, are justified in their views, but both may be antagonistic towards the
others views, as we've seen here in this thread.

The inclusion of "A Confession" really put the lid on my pot. I get the
feeling he should have signed it since it seems to express his ego so well.

Nah. It's an interesting commentary by Picasso. We can learn insights into his
thought process from it. What Abrasha learned, he'll have to tell us himself.
Makes interesting reading. So does, by the way, if you can find it somewhere,
Salvadore Dali's discussion on what it takes to be a great artist. (by the time
he's done with his list of requirements, only one man in the universe, himself,
qualifies...) There are many interesting viewpoints on the nature of art.
Abrasha or others on this list can no doubt recommend many varied ones. All are
valid within the context of who wrote them. Few should ever be taken outof
that context, except for very carefully. This is such a case.


Your how to comments to others have helped me and I will keep reading the
news.

I'm glad to have helped, as, I'm sure, are those many other users of thisgroup
who also give freely. Including, often enough, Abrasha.

But it ocurs to me that perhaps, in addition to all the "How To" tips, perhaps
we should also now and then get into the "WHY DO" tips. Not just how to make
this stuff, buy why do whe do it. We talk a lot of techniques, and virtually
nothing about aesthetics. One thing this thread has made obvious is thatthere
is a broad range of opinions and levels of training regarding the aesthetics of
jewelry and jewelry design. This is not trivial stuff, by the way. I recall
in graduate school, perhaps the most intense classes were the seminar classes
where most of what we talked about were issues like this. Not how to make a
thing. But why make a given thing. WHAT was worth making, and what not.Why?
etc. like I said, gets intense. Very invigorating stuff too.

cheers

Peter

Charlie Johns wrote:
Mr. Rowe,
I have been interested in the lapidary arts for some time now and have been
privilaged to meet and learn from some fine people. I found your newsgroup,
read it with some regularity, and have learned more.

"your newsgroup"? Interesting way of putting this. Just in case you
did not know sir, this is Usenet. This is where the Net started so many
years ago. This is not a private bulletin board.


Some of the things I learned I really didn't want to know. [the thread A
necklace I am proud of]

What a crock and a lie! This thread has been going on for almost two
weeks now, longer than any thread over the past several years. And
obviously you have been reading it, voluntarily I presume. Or did
someone put a gun to your head to make you read it?


Mr. Abrasha

Please don't call me "Mr." Abrasha. Makes me feel like a hairdresser.

is a talented man from what I see on his web site,

thank you.

but
unfortunately we can't all go to school in Germany for two years and be
coddled by a master jeweler.

You don't know what you are talking about. Coddled you say. It was
beaten into me, the German way! (The Prussian way?) Almost literally.
Some of my work as an apprentice, ended up in between my master's anvil
and his large forging hammer. If I didn't get it right the first time,
I got to do it over until I did get it right.

And btw, schooling in Germany (at least at the time) was free for me, as
a Dutch citizen, a member country of the EC.

My first employer after my apprenticeship and certification as a
goldsmith was the late Professor Klaus Ullrich. I had wanted to work
for him ever since my friend Alan Rosenberg, who worked for him, had
introduced me to him.

One day, a few days after I had received a DM .25 raise, and the day
after I had screwed up a part of a major bracelet he had to take to a
show in Duesseldorf, for which he was to leave in a few days, I came to
work in his shop and found a note on my bench. It said something like,
"You last chance to get it right. You screw up again, you're out".

How's that for coddled?

The bottom line is. Germans produce great craftsmen. The
apprenticeship program at Mercedes Benz at the time was legendary.

"The work produced by students in the second year of the
Goldschmiedeschule in Pforzheim (where I went to school), is far
superior in craftsmanship than anything produced by goldsmiths in this
country who have been at the bench for 15 years." This statement was
made by a person who used to work at a jewelry gallery in the US, upon
seeing the work by students at that school, exhibited in the lobby of
the school.

If you don't believe that, I suggest you travel there and see for
yourself. Although I question your ability to see the quality in true
craftsmanship.

It is in fact a sad statement, that anyone who is older than maybe 3 to
5 years and out of diapers, would take the trouble to put a necklace
like that online, than take the trouble to subscribe to a newsgroup to
which (s)he has never posted before and then announce in the newsgroup
that (s)he is proud of his (her) accomplishment.

It took 5 hours. Well whoopeeee! It took me 300 hours to do this:
http://www.abrasha.com/slideshow/jud...orah%20lit.htm


SNIP


The inclusion of "A Confession" really put the lid on my pot.

Huh, What does that mean?

I get the
feeling he should have signed it since it seems to express his ego so well.

Interesting how you chose to read Picasso's "A Confession", but
apparently did not bother to look at my "Process" pages, and/or my
"Video" page. Or chose not to mention it.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Abrasha wrote in
:

SNIPPED

One day, a few days after I had received a DM .25 raise, and the day
after I had screwed up a part of a major bracelet he had to take to a
show in Duesseldorf, for which he was to leave in a few days, I came to
work in his shop and found a note on my bench. It said something like,
"You last chance to get it right. You screw up again, you're out".

So basically you are saying you made the parts for some other artist's art.
If it was his why did you make anything for it? Don't sound to me like he
had any talent if he was relying on you to make HIS art.


How's that for coddled?

The bottom line is. Germans produce great craftsmen. The
apprenticeship program at Mercedes Benz at the time was legendary.

Yeah and now they build Chryslers. BFD

--
Larry S.
TS 52

"HareBall" wrote in message
news Abrasha wrote in
:

One day, a few days after I had received a DM .25 raise, and the day
after I had screwed up a part of a major bracelet he had to take to a
show in Duesseldorf, for which he was to leave in a few days, I came to
work in his shop and found a note on my bench. It said something like,
"You last chance to get it right. You screw up again, you're out".

So basically you are saying you made the parts for some other artist's art.
If it was his why did you make anything for it? Don't sound to me like he
had any talent if he was relying on you to make HIS art.

---------------------

That's how real workshops work.

Jewellery making uses a series of medium and heavy engineering techniqueson
a very small scale.

Because of this it tends to use engineering working practices.

Normal engineering working practice uses a number of highly skilled
craftsmen doing different parts of a single design.

A jeweller may be adequate at doing all the different parts of a single
design, but they won't be as good a polisher as a craftsman polisher who
does nothing else.

They may produce adequate castings, but they won't be as good as those
produced by a professional caster.

Doing everything yourself is always a compromise. To get the same results
as a specialist takes longer, with the concomitant rise in costs.

A 'one man band' has little choice. When you are big enough to employ
people then you employ specialists and get what are called 'economies of
scale'.

In the larger jewellery houses the designer works as a CAD station and
probably never picks up a file or a graver from one week to the next.

A large part of the current graduate programme at the Central Jewellery
School in the UK is the use of CAD systems for the design of jewellery.

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.