A necklace I am proud of :)

William Black wrote:
"m4816k" wrote in message
...


That's because people are used to the fact that art is
something not anyone can do (and today's art visually suggests otherwise)
because of the complexity and necessary talent - take for instance
Rembrandt's "Night watch".

--------------------

I could rattle on for hours about the formalisms and imagery in Rembrant's
'Night Watch', which isn't the original name by the way.

That's right, it is "De compagnie van kapitein Frans Banning Cocq en
luitenant Willem van Ruytenburgh maakt zich gereed om uit te marcheren."

(The company of captain Frans Banning Cocq and lieutenant Willem van
Ruytenburgh is getting ready to march out)


The fact that the postures of the musketeers are from a drill book and not
from life and so represent an idealised image, the fanciful helmets, also
not from life but to add a 'classical element', the social pointers, such
as the black clothes worn by the captain, the significance of the polearm
carried by the lieutenant and many many more.

The picture carries many more 'coded messages' than most modern art.


Marijan (who has made it impossible to email her directly), has at best
a very simplistic, uneducated and limited understanding of art in
general and modern art in particular. As far as she is concerned, the
amount of time it takes to complete a piece determines it's quality.

Obviously, as she pointed out herself "some pieces from Abrasha's
site would (based on the first glimps)", she did not take the time to
take a look at my process pages or my video, which all describe in very
precise detail the process, inspiration and philosophy behind my work.

And then she goes on to complain about the fact that these are missing,
"... no artist is willing to explain his work and his inspirations", and
"... artists often don't seem to think they need to explain their work
to the public, from inspiration, ideas, manufacturing processes,
craftmanship skills necessary for the work, materials involved etc...."

Marijan, if you are going to make generalizing statements like that, at
least do us all a favor and educate yourself first.

Your opinion, however lacking in substance and without merit, is noted.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 21:53:41 GMT, Abrasha wrote:

Marijan (who has made it impossible to email her directly),

If you take out the REMOVE_THIS, it should work.
--
Marilee J. Layman
http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjlayman

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:00:48 GMT, "m4816k"
wrote:

To be
honest again, and without any wish on being rude, some pieces from Abrasha's
site would (based on the first glimps) lead me to install them in my car,
thinking those are some parts I lost along the way, rather than think
they're parts of a designer jewellery collection.

I like Abrasha's stuff, although I had it drummed in my head as a
child that mixed metals are bad. They look very functional, very
elegant. I like the mechanical details.
--
Marilee J. Layman
http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjlayman

"Marilee J. Layman" wrote in
:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 06:31:01 GMT, HareBall
wrote:


I think he needs to get over it too. Just because he doesn't like her
stuff and has a hard time paying his bills doesn't mean he has to cuss
some other people for doing what they like.
I personally don't care a lot for the beaded stuff, but my my wife can
make a pair of earings out of it and only have about $2.00 in it and
sell
them for $18.00. She is only giving people what they want. If they
didn't
like them, they wouldn't buy it. Maybe he needs to go somewhere that
people like what he is doing.

What's she paying herself for time?

I never really ask things like that. She has probably spent more on beads
and stuff than she has made since she doesn't do it with any regularity.
It's more of a hobby than a business. But if I was to think about it from
the point of what she has in them as far as time, I would say she is paying
herself about $50.00/hr. They don't take but a few minutes to make.

--
Larry S.
TS 52

Abrasha wrote:
mehughes wrote:

I'm not sure what I would suppose to be learning from comments such as
this "I think I'm going to hang myself now, or maybe I'll just quietly slit
my wrists" - How is that constructive? What can be learned from that?



It was not meant to be constructive nor was it meant me be a post from
which anything can be learned. Except maybe about me, to those who would
have been capable of reading between the lines!

People who make this kind of crap, make a great deal more money than I
do. Take a look at the work by an old acquaintance of mine who used to
be a sales person for IBM when I knew her here in San Francisco many
years ago. http://www.lauragibson.com/ Click on "Collections". Now a
major business who's work is in many of the major jewelry stores around
the country.

In fact, after having been a goldsmith more than 30 years, and having
received multiple honors, prizes, publications in magazines and books as
well as inclusions of my work in private as well as public collections
as prestigious as the Smithsonian, I am still struggling to make a
living and pay my bills.

2005 was my worst year EVER, and with the price of precious metals going
the way they have been going the last year or so, I see it only getting
worse. There is no future for me and my work in this market where
garbage like "pretty necklace" is all the rage. Or where the
competition are businesses like Elie International (recent post of
Partnership Opportunity), who has been in business for 23 years and now
carries an inventory of over 24,000 items. I have been in business
longer, and I have such a pathetic inventory compared to that, it's not
funny.

When I see that untrained people who make this kind of crap, because
they suddenly have a need and "passion" to make what they think is
jewelry, I get very discouraged, and depressed.

The point of my post was: I'M WORTH MORE DEAD THAN ALIVE! At least if I
were dead, my wife would get to collect on my life insurance!

So to all of you who don't like that, **** YOU ALL!

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com


Well!!
Ive been without the "net" for 3 days due to the fact the local
pheasnt shoot happened to hit the telco overhead line and take out the 2
carrier wires leaving the suspension wires intact, They normally
couldnt hit a door at 5 paces!!
so in my absence all hell has broken out here on RCJ!!.
as a metal worker/craftsman /self emplyed like Abrasha, I too have had
the highs and the frustration of the lows over the 36years is it now?
ive been paddling my own canoe.
So like many have said in so many words,
you either make what you want or you make what the public want.
Looking at this more closely,
IF you make what you want then theres no guarantee that the public your
exposed to will part with their hard earned or otherwise cash for it.
This is the risk you always take going down this road no matter how
much effort, money or time youve put into the creation..
IF your also true to yourself you wont or cant make what the public your
exposed to want , which in this case is what is referred to as beaded crap.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and to my simple old tired eyes
this beaded necklace has a classical form , with good proportions
even tho its just cheap glass and plated brass wire.
It is what it is and no more.
Its not "****" tho as you say. , and for a beginner commendable.
Worth maybe a couple of dollars. no more.
But this doesnt solve your problem,
Now back in the early 70's here in the Uk and specifically in London, I
had just 4ft by 4ft of the railings on the Bayswater Rd. There on a
Sunday, some 120 miles from here where I live in Dorset, I put up my
display boards with my simple pendants, bracelets and finger rings.
Ive still the pics of that somewhere.
I was amazed that with the public out for a sunday walk I could and
did earn more week after week for 7 years from that little stall more
tham I did in my previous employment than i did in a whole month.
So What can I suggest?
to meet all of your requirements, which Id put in this order
A public that appreciate what you do,
even tho they might not be able to afford it.
a fair return for your time,
and an honest wage to reflect your skill level.
You have everything except that all important item, a proper shop,
This is what makes the public WANT what you make.
Again i can give you a no of examples where this made the difference
between success and failure.
I did a lot of work with the avant garde Jeweller Andrew Grima, who
had the most exclusive and modern jewellers in the west End of london
In Jermyn St.. He made ultra modern work BUT had the right display in
the right place for it.He was hugely successful because of these 2
essential items.
i too went to the trouble to have my own Seperate display marquee, (I
was NOT in the main tents along with everyone else!!) some 20ft by 10 ft
size at 4 or 5 large exhibitions at the leading craft fairs here in
the UK and throughout europe, when I got tired of the travelling every
SundayTo london and back.
I reasoned that there was only so much spare money coming onto each
show, and i intended to make sure I had the largest share of that. so I
had the best , most exciting display, . and it worked.
My average takings over 4 days selling my own work that I designed and
made over the previous months came to regularly over $10,000.00 dollars.
So with the right display, or what ever youd want to call it,, it will work.
you have to create the right atmosphere to get the public to want your
work. Thats the key to financial success. A web site isnt the right way
to do this. the public have to walk into your space and experience it,
you and your work.
I dont do jewels, just metalwork, in many differnt forms. from large
siver dishes which run into thousands of dollars to simple rings made
from siver twisted wire at $10.00 a time. Id have items in both these
price ranges on my stall, with everything in between .
Everything you do and say says something to the public. when your at a
show. you can watch their faces as they come in and take a look
around., then ask questions, and try someting on. you can see them
thinking "I want that" and then there going for their purses to have
it. then theres some one right behind them who wants one too,.
you need to get that all right, then it will work.
Id love to come over and give you a hand to do this. Maybe?
Dont give up , use your frustration and anger to power yourself through
this.
Were all on your side.
ted frater Dorset UK.
PS, what am I doing now?
that will have to wait for another time.

"Abrasha" wrote:
Marijan (who has made it impossible to email her directly), has at best
a very simplistic, uneducated and limited understanding of art in
general and modern art in particular. As far as she is concerned, the
amount of time it takes to complete a piece determines it's quality.
----------------------------------------------------------
No, I was just making a point that maybe today's public, living in a very
high-speed world (so to call it), likes to be shown the complexity of work
in an easily understandable way, rather than being told to finish collegeto
be able to understand a piece of art.
Here's the way I see it; if I buy a painting, I'll buy it because I know I
can enjoy it. For example, if I want to enjoy it while relaxing in my living
room, I'll appreciate a beautiful landscape that I can view simply as a
sight on a wonderful nature, also admiring artists skills in getting certain
shades of colors or details that make it realistic. I may even never find
out the real intention of the author for doing it, nor see metaphors or
simbolisms in it, but I know there's a way I can enjoy it. That's why I
would not buy a piece like those "two lines and a dot" I mentioned in my
previous post, cause I can't see how am I suppose to enjoy it. For the same
reason, 99% of Hollywood movies is something easily comprehensible like "Men
in black", cause it's probable that only 1% or so, of potential consumers,
will have a desire to watch a movie full of philosophycal quenstions of the
purpose of life or existance of God. Therefore, if consumers can't be
attracted with the art of story-telling, they will be with the art of
production like special effects. And Hollywood, just like you, lives from
money brought by consumers. Of course, those with more interest will ask
questions themselves to understand art, but unfortunatelly that's probably
not a high percentage of general public, so if you want to make money, you
have to adapt to the majority.
----------------------------------------------------------
Obviously, as she pointed out herself "some pieces from Abrasha's
site would (based on the first glimps)", she did not take the time to
take a look at my process pages or my video, which all describe in very
precise detail the process, inspiration and philosophy behind my work.

And then she goes on to complain about the fact that these are missing,
"... no artist is willing to explain his work and his inspirations", and
"... artists often don't seem to think they need to explain their work
to the public, from inspiration, ideas, manufacturing processes,
craftmanship skills necessary for the work, materials involved etc...."

Marijan, if you are going to make generalizing statements like that, at
least do us all a favor and educate yourself first.
----------------------------------------------------------
Point taken, and I apologize for not paying more attention to your website,
but I also have to point out that I didn't say that you don't explain your
work - I was refering to some artists from various fields who's works I saw
(I generalized, which I obviously shouldn't have done). But that just goes
to show that I'm right when I say that people lack time these days (I wasin
a hurry while "getting a glimpse on your website") so they prefer works
where they will recognize something they enjoy, on a first view. After
reviewing some parts of your site I have to say I'm surprised of the amount
of work involved, but when I'm buying (especially jewellery) I'm rarely
introduced to the manufacturing processes by sales people, therefore I asan
average consumer may compare a work of some famous artist to (for example) a
plain, mass-produced piece of jewellery (or part of a car). Obviously, we
can go on like this for days and don't come to an agreement cause we don't
share interests and expertise, but I was just presenting my opinion, which,
to your disappointment, is rather close to that of most people's
understanding of art. I was just trying to help:-)

"What we need is to consider how to compete, and how to better market
ourselves. We need to increase the number of consumers who understand the
difference between really good work and kitschy or commonplace but still
attractive work, and are willing to pay for the difference. And these
people then need to be able to find us.


All I know is that I started reading this group because I wanted to expand
on my very limited knowledge of jewelry design. I'm not in a position where
I can chuck it all and go back and get a degree in fine arts/jewelry design.
I just didn't expect this level of animosity from the "real" artist towards
those of us who liked to be "spoon fed our knowledge and who are able to
sell what we make without paying our dues and are doing quite well at it.

When I look at Abrasha's jewelry I think "Ferrari" and when I look at the
example of the jewelry that he was bemoaning I think "Volkswagen". How many
Ferraris do you see on the road compared to Volkswagens? More people can
afford a Volkswagen than can afford a Ferrari and for the most part a
Volkswagen is more practical for everyday needs. The reason why Abrasha's
jewelry doesn't sell as well as his acquaintance from IBM is that it doesn't
look like something most people would wear on a daily basis and something
that would be seen in gallery or museum somewhere. And I bet his cost
quite a bit more than her does.

Man, talk about killing yourself over jewelry and what is pretty or not.
It is pretty, and it seems like it was well done. I have been making a
good living for 30 years making little Silver "junk" jewelry most priced
at $20.00. Or at least what "great educated artists" would call "junk".
I have cast thousands of solid silver Mountain Alder Cones. No real art
there, but fun and very profitable. I teach my student how to make a
living with $20.00 very profitable silver stuff. Make a living on Monday
and Tuesday. Pay the bills with inexpensive stuff on Monday and Tuesday.
Make $50.00 stuff to $100.00 stuff on Wednesday. Make stuff that people
will buy, not what you like. And, do not make everything a "Master
Piece" for the pages. Then that gives you several days to make your
master pieces if you wish. You know the junk that wins art shows, but no
one will ever wear. Junk that is on the front of Magazines that only a
few can afford. A master piece that no one will buy is just a piece of
junk to me.

Well back to my subject line. Over the years I have watch the jewelry
market, the large average person jewelry market go from rhinestone
jewelry, which I thought was, and still is pretty. You can just go ahead
and kill yourself if you don't think those rhinestone pins aren't
pretty. I would be glad to help you. But, then again, I can look at
Elvis on black velvet and see that it is pretty. Might not want it in my
living room, but I can say it is pretty. For some pompous ass to say it
is ugly is Ok with me too. Anyway, back to the subject of owing beaders
a debt of gratitude. As Americans got a little better off, they started
buying Silver jewelry. Seemed to have more value than rhinestones and
pot metal. Not prettier, just more value for their money. Maybe even
collectable, as with American Indian art might be. Then we got better
off financially, and we started buying gold jewelry. One of the ugliest
metals I know of: it is "yellow" you know. Not my favorite color, not
pretty at all. And we could even afford "diamonds", they are worth a
lot. Not real pretty either, just clear. Oh, if you get real close and
they are real good, you get all that pretty sparkling light out them.
Oh, so pretty! Most however are just white if you are more that 18
inches from them. So we started making and selling emeralds, rubies and
even some garnets and such. They were prettier, especially for the
money. Oh, too many customers thought they were pretty too, and all of
sudden they were more valuable than diamonds. Dam it I wish we could
have cornered all those markets!. Then came the Hunt brothers. I had a
dream that I shot the fat toad looking Bunker Hunt square in the head
with on of my silver arrow heads. A $20.00 piece of junk that even
during their crap, cost me about $2.00 to make. Oh, how we cried about
the cost of our metal. It went from $0.75 an ounce when I first started,
to a hair over $40.00. I was casting 200 pieces of Sterling Silver
jewlery, pine cones, a day back, then and my suppliers never charged me
more than $17.00 per ounce. We knew it would fall and they wanted me to
stay in business. Even at $17.00 I made a lot of pretty junk, and still
made a good living. New cars, tv and never was hungry.

Anyway, back to the subject of those darned beaders and their pretty
necklaces. I remember my "real" jeweler friends laugh about making
mother's rings with all those color all on one ring. What junk, pretty
junk, meant a lot to the mother wearing it, but oh, what junk.
Birthstones, even synthetic birthstones. Oh, my, we should have all hung
ourselves. Of course they always laughed at me while driving to work in
their Pintos. Yes every thing had to be those pretty diamonds, with
maybe a hint of color on each side. But, only one color, two would have
made it ugly.

Then some asshole invented a way to plate natural objects and I could
not st sell any more solid Silver pine cones if my life depended on it.
So I started making a 100 pieces of metaphysical, with quartz crystals,
a day. Almost as profitable as pine cones, but no as pretty. Now I was
just making junk, not even pretty junk, dragons and the like. Oh, my,
what junk, but my wife was happy. I thought about slitting my wrists,
but wanted to kill that damn inventor worse, so I stayed alive. By now I
bet you just want to kill me!

Boring, Boring years, year after year of yellow crap looking metal. To
make up for it "artist" starting to make stuff that no one really wanted
to wear. Oh sure, there is always the lady that will wear a ring that
covers her fist and stands two inch tall. But not enough of them to make
me a living. Still they were just ugly, not pretty. Oh, and some artist
even combined the ugly yellow junk with steel, stainless steel even. Now
that is pretty. Any time you can combine an age old rare, ugly yellow,
valuable metal with white metal that has almost no value. I thought, now
this is really pretty, real art, but you almost had to go to some fancy
school to learn how to drill holes, and the like to make the pretty junk.

Oh, back to the subject of those ******* beaders. I watched it coming.
Told my students what silly ****, this fad will die. After all they used
every possible color. Every kind of stones, and oh, no, they did it on
the same mother ****ing pieces. I knew it would only last about a year.
May a bead store in every major town and that would be it. That was ten
years ago.

Then I will be a son of bitch, now everyone is wearing pretty junk that
has amethyst and emeralds in the some string. Some pieces have more than
five different colors in it. Those uneducated bitches making money,
forcing people to buy that crap. Holding a gun to their heads, those
beading, scheming witches. Most were women you know, and still are. Some
men do beading, but we would not admit. After all it is just putting
some ugly ass beads on string. Anyone can do that.

Ok, ok, I apologize. I did not know that we could cuss on the forum. I
can not even say "hell" on the lists that I own, so it is like my first
time on HBO. I just had to do it. I know it must have been more shocking
when a real artist does it. But it was fun, and I will never do it
again, cross my heart and hope to got to hell if I do.

Anyway, back to my debt of gratitude. We owe those da, da, darned
beaders a debt of gratitude for bring back "pretty" and colors in to
jewelry making. I hope it stays for the next 20 years. I hope I can just
die then, when ugly comes back into our profession: yellow metal
expensive metal that our customers found out was almost worthless when
they took their pretty piece of junk in to sell it. Oh, they found out
that diamonds would be worth about $20 a carat if we did not control the
market. So, they also figured out that jewelry for the most part and for
sure for the average person, was not an investment.

So, they are now buying pretty again. Oh my, now I have to confess. I
use a lot of rhinestones in my pretty junk now. Yes, yes, I am going to
say it, and I am crying now, I use a lot of snap tight heads. Please
don't hate me just because I make pretty things. The first piece I made
with rhinestones in it was when Rio Grande starting selling them in
their catalog I almost called them and cussed them out, after all they
were a jewelry catalog. I didn't call and they then started selling
beads those bast, bas, ba, bad people. They forced thousands of people
to buy that stuff. Anyway, I was making my wife a nice piece. Not junk,
oh, it was silver though. The center stone was a large blue topaz. I
know, it was cheap and pretty, pretty blue! But she likes it. I put two
8 mm aurora borealis (I don't know and don't care how to spell it)
rhinestones on each side of it, and then some more 6 mm blue topaz
stones on each side of it. It is a kind of dangle piece. When I gave it
ot her I thought she would see those rhinestones, and get mad at me. A
good joke I thought. But no, she liked it and asked what they were. I
said: "Well honey, they are ab rhinestones!". She said, "I thought so, I
have not seen those since you made that stuff during your Master Degree
work. You know that Rhinestone Cowboy junk that paid our bills that
year! I like it and you should make more to sell." I did and will keep
making it.

So, any way, back to the subject. Thank you beaders, thank you for the
bottom of my heart for bring back "pretty" to our trade again. And Flic
thank you for showing us the pretty piece you made. Too time consuming
to make it profitable at this point, but pretty. Make some cheaper stuff
that everyone can afford. I want to thank you too, because if you help
one snobbish art speaking "artieest" to hang themselves, you have done
the world a favor. Thank you and all beaders for not letting pompous
snobs tell us what we should think is pretty, and what is good art. If
you want to see an ugly yellow and white piece of jewelry go to:
http://www.abrasha.com And, you can even see the pretty little screw
holding it together.

I had a very bad year too. Oh I bought two new cars, but they are Kias,
I feel so cheap when I drive up to my classroom. And if you been to my
classroom in Estes Park you know how funny that is. Seriously it was a
very bad year, not much better now. I am hanging on to one employee, and
barely making payroll. Boohoo, oh, no, am have went back to casting pine
cones, they are pretty, and there is a good market for them again. As
Silver goes up, people think it is worth something again and they are
starting to sell good again. Who knew!

Sorry, Abrasha, I have spent a year away from this list because of you
making fun of people, especially beginners. I just rejoined to see what
the buzz is and here you go again. So when you tell someone, to go f---
themselves, I won't take it. So make stuff that people can buy, will
buy, or take up macramé. But don't cry about it. Either make stuff that
will make you a living or be a starving artist with your junk on display
in museums. By the way how much did they pay you for your jewelry. Anything?
Don Norris
LearnSilver.com

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 02:20:15 GMT, "mehughes"
wrote:

"What we need is to consider how to compete, and how to better market
ourselves. We need to increase the number of consumers who understand the
difference between really good work and kitschy or commonplace but still
attractive work, and are willing to pay for the difference. And these
people then need to be able to find us.

That's not me you're quoting, but you replied to my post.
--
Marilee J. Layman
http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjlayman

Don Norris wrote:

3 page rant deleted

*Plonk*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plonk