OT - The Greatest Disaster the World Has Ever Known.

But, why should you be more supicious of
*all* Muslim charities than of Christian or Jewish charities?



Because Christians and Jews are not blowing innocent people up on a daily
basis. Christians and Jews are not setting up terroist camps. Anyone who is
*not* more suspicious of Muslim activities is naive.

Cheri
(Bubbee to Emily and Nathan)

It's my life
And it's now or never
I ain't gonna live forever
I just want to live while I'm alive - Bon Jovi

~~~~ But, why should you be more supicious of
*all* Muslim charities than of Christian or Jewish charities?

Because Christians and Jews are not blowing innocent people up on a
daily
basis.~~~~

Whoa -- tell that to the people of Oklahoma City.

vj wrote:
Cheri2Star wrote:
Because Christians and Jews are not blowing innocent people up on a daily
basis. Christians and Jews are not setting up terroist camps. Anyone who is
*not* more suspicious of Muslim activities is naive.

THANK YOU!
that was what others i asked said, too.

MAJOR Bitch rant:

First: Tim McVey who blew up the Murre Federal Building in Oklahoma City
was a Chritsian. Eric Robert Rudolph who blew up a woman's clinic and a
gay night club and who was possibly responsible for the bomb that
exploded in Olympic Park in Atlanta is a Christian. (Some Christians
regard Rudolph as a HERO for killing queers and baby-killers.) I don't
know that Isrealis have blown up any Americans lately, but they do seem
to have endless fun using their helicopter gunships to blow up Arab
homes in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. (The dead Palestinian children
who got in the way don't count as innocent, I guess.) And, lately most
of the bombs being blown up by Muslims are aimed at other Muslims.

Second: vj questions the motives of Muslim charities based on nothing
more than their religion, and then cries that I've attacked her. How
hypocritical is that? Her feelings are hurt, but what about the
feelings of any possible readers here who happen to be Muslim? I'll bet
those folks (if there are any) don't speak up because they're afraid of
all the hate they'd have to endure. I suppose the feelings of Muslims
don't count because, well, they're Muslims and therefore, probably
terrorists.

Third: On September 11, 2001, nineteen Muslim men, mostly from Saudi
Arabia, flew jetliners into building in the US, killing nearly 3000
people. They were motivated by politics, but justified their action
with their religion. As of that date, all Muslims everywhere became The
Enemy, regardless of their political views (In 2000, most American
Muslims voted for George W. Bush), or their nationality. Hundreds, if
not thousands (no one know the true numbers) of young Muslim men in the
US were summarily detained, indefinitely, without being charged with
anything and without benefit of legal counsel.

Fourth: Indonesia, the country hardest hit by the tsunami, has more
Muslims per square foot than any other country in the world. The
Indonesian government is friendly to the US, but has a problem with
Islamist rebels. These rebels are demonstrably anti-American, having
kidnapped and killed a number of American tourists and missionaries.
These Muslim operated chiefly in the Aceh Province of northern Sumatra,
whose capital was virtually wiped out by the Wave.

Somehow, I can't see why you are even considering donating money for the
relief effort. I'd think, that since you seem to hate Muslims so much,
you would be down on your knees praising God because He destroyed so
many of The Enemy.

-----------------------------------------

I TOLD you not to push my buttons, and you all can bite my ass. I
wouldn't have anything to do with a bunch of bigots, anyway.

Snarling,
Arondelle
--
================================================== =========
To email me, empty the pond with a net

~~~~Christians and Jews are not setting up terroist camps. Anyone who
is
]*not* more suspicious of Muslim activities is naive.

THANK YOU!
that was what others i asked said, too.~~~~~
They have very selective memories, then. And are naive to boot.

She's right.

~~~~~~~~First: Tim McVey who blew up the Murre Federal Building in
Oklahoma City
was a Chritsian. Eric Robert Rudolph who blew up a woman's clinic and a

gay night club and who was possibly responsible for the bomb that
exploded in Olympic Park in Atlanta is a Christian. (Some Christians
regard Rudolph as a HERO for killing queers and baby-killers.) I don't
know that Isrealis have blown up any Americans lately, but they do seem

to have endless fun using their helicopter gunships to blow up Arab
homes in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. (The dead Palestinian children
who got in the way don't count as innocent, I guess.) And, lately most
of the bombs being blown up by Muslims are aimed at other Muslims.


Second: vj questions the motives of Muslim charities based on nothing
more than their religion, and then cries that I've attacked her. How
hypocritical is that? Her feelings are hurt, but what about the
feelings of any possible readers here who happen to be Muslim? I'll bet

those folks (if there are any) don't speak up because they're afraid of

all the hate they'd have to endure. I suppose the feelings of Muslims
don't count because, well, they're Muslims and therefore, probably
terrorists.


Third: On September 11, 2001, nineteen Muslim men, mostly from Saudi
Arabia, flew jetliners into building in the US, killing nearly 3000
people. They were motivated by politics, but justified their action
with their religion. As of that date, all Muslims everywhere became The

Enemy, regardless of their political views (In 2000, most American
Muslims voted for George W. Bush), or their nationality. Hundreds, if
not thousands (no one know the true numbers) of young Muslim men in the

US were summarily detained, indefinitely, without being charged with
anything and without benefit of legal counsel.


Fourth: Indonesia, the country hardest hit by the tsunami, has more
Muslims per square foot than any other country in the world. The
Indonesian government is friendly to the US, but has a problem with
Islamist rebels. These rebels are demonstrably anti-American, having
kidnapped and killed a number of American tourists and missionaries.
These Muslim operated chiefly in the Aceh Province of northern Sumatra,

whose capital was virtually wiped out by the Wave.


Somehow, I can't see why you are even considering donating money for
the
relief effort. I'd think, that since you seem to hate Muslims so much,
you would be down on your knees praising God because He destroyed so
many of The Enemy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

You are joking aren't you? At least about Christians. The Crusades? The
Spanish Inquistion? The Salem Witch Hunts? To name a few. Every Christian
needs to study the rise of their own religion. Especially from 1200 onwards.
Just because it happened in the past does NOT excuse it. You want apologies
from Muslims now? When has there ever been an apology to the midwives who
were murdered as witches?

Christians and Jews have visited violence and annexation upon Muslims,
starting with the crusades and more recently the annexation of Palestine led
by powerful US Jewish lobby groups. This is invasion. A violent and
agressive act. The lunacy of annexation is startling. Did we learn nothing
from the Rhineland debacle? And let us not forget it was Britain who
created Iraq. To control oil. Naivety comes from ignorance and if you want
to be taken at all seriously, study history. There is not one nation
represented on this board who does not have something to answer to.

I'm in agreement with Arondelle here - it's statements like this that make
me angry beyond reason and disparing that there is so much ignorance in the
world.

Because Christians and Jews are not blowing innocent people up on a daily
basis. Christians and Jews are not setting up terroist camps. Anyone who is
*not* more suspicious of Muslim activities is naive.

Cheri
(Bubbee to Emily and Nathan)

It's my life
And it's now or never
I ain't gonna live forever
I just want to live while I'm alive - Bon Jovi

Thanks for those words, Arondelle...and like Sooz said, "she's right."

"Arondelle" wrote in message
news:XsDBd.20932$2X6.4538@trnddc07...
vj wrote:
Cheri2Star wrote:
Because Christians and Jews are not blowing innocent people up on a
daily
basis. Christians and Jews are not setting up terroist camps. Anyone
who is
*not* more suspicious of Muslim activities is naive.

THANK YOU!
that was what others i asked said, too.

MAJOR Bitch rant:

First: Tim McVey who blew up the Murre Federal Building in Oklahoma City
was a Chritsian. Eric Robert Rudolph who blew up a woman's clinic and a
gay night club and who was possibly responsible for the bomb that
exploded in Olympic Park in Atlanta is a Christian. (Some Christians
regard Rudolph as a HERO for killing queers and baby-killers.) I don't
know that Isrealis have blown up any Americans lately, but they do seem
to have endless fun using their helicopter gunships to blow up Arab
homes in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. (The dead Palestinian children
who got in the way don't count as innocent, I guess.) And, lately most
of the bombs being blown up by Muslims are aimed at other Muslims.

Second: vj questions the motives of Muslim charities based on nothing
more than their religion, and then cries that I've attacked her. How
hypocritical is that? Her feelings are hurt, but what about the
feelings of any possible readers here who happen to be Muslim? I'll bet
those folks (if there are any) don't speak up because they're afraid of
all the hate they'd have to endure. I suppose the feelings of Muslims
don't count because, well, they're Muslims and therefore, probably
terrorists.

Third: On September 11, 2001, nineteen Muslim men, mostly from Saudi
Arabia, flew jetliners into building in the US, killing nearly 3000
people. They were motivated by politics, but justified their action
with their religion. As of that date, all Muslims everywhere became The
Enemy, regardless of their political views (In 2000, most American
Muslims voted for George W. Bush), or their nationality. Hundreds, if
not thousands (no one know the true numbers) of young Muslim men in the
US were summarily detained, indefinitely, without being charged with
anything and without benefit of legal counsel.

Fourth: Indonesia, the country hardest hit by the tsunami, has more
Muslims per square foot than any other country in the world. The
Indonesian government is friendly to the US, but has a problem with
Islamist rebels. These rebels are demonstrably anti-American, having
kidnapped and killed a number of American tourists and missionaries.
These Muslim operated chiefly in the Aceh Province of northern Sumatra,
whose capital was virtually wiped out by the Wave.

Somehow, I can't see why you are even considering donating money for the
relief effort. I'd think, that since you seem to hate Muslims so much,
you would be down on your knees praising God because He destroyed so
many of The Enemy.

-----------------------------------------

I TOLD you not to push my buttons, and you all can bite my ass. I
wouldn't have anything to do with a bunch of bigots, anyway.

Snarling,
Arondelle
--
================================================== =========
To email me, empty the pond with a net

Harsh but all completely TRUE. Most Muslims and Muslim organizations are
no more of a threat than most Christians and Christian organizations, or
most Jews and Jewish organizations. There are extemist Muslims who hate
all non-Muslims, but sadly enough, there are some extremist Christians
who hate all non-Christians, and who would be all too happy to see
pagans and jews wiped out. Occasionally, some of them act on it.

-Kalera


Arondelle wrote:

MAJOR Bitch rant:

First: Tim McVey who blew up the Murre Federal Building in Oklahoma City
was a Chritsian. Eric Robert Rudolph who blew up a woman's clinic and a
gay night club and who was possibly responsible for the bomb that
exploded in Olympic Park in Atlanta is a Christian. (Some Christians
regard Rudolph as a HERO for killing queers and baby-killers.) I don't
know that Isrealis have blown up any Americans lately, but they do seem
to have endless fun using their helicopter gunships to blow up Arab
homes in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. (The dead Palestinian children
who got in the way don't count as innocent, I guess.) And, lately most
of the bombs being blown up by Muslims are aimed at other Muslims.

Second: vj questions the motives of Muslim charities based on nothing
more than their religion, and then cries that I've attacked her. How
hypocritical is that? Her feelings are hurt, but what about the
feelings of any possible readers here who happen to be Muslim? I'll bet
those folks (if there are any) don't speak up because they're afraid of
all the hate they'd have to endure. I suppose the feelings of Muslims
don't count because, well, they're Muslims and therefore, probably
terrorists.

Third: On September 11, 2001, nineteen Muslim men, mostly from Saudi
Arabia, flew jetliners into building in the US, killing nearly 3000
people. They were motivated by politics, but justified their action
with their religion. As of that date, all Muslims everywhere became The
Enemy, regardless of their political views (In 2000, most American
Muslims voted for George W. Bush), or their nationality. Hundreds, if
not thousands (no one know the true numbers) of young Muslim men in the
US were summarily detained, indefinitely, without being charged with
anything and without benefit of legal counsel.

Fourth: Indonesia, the country hardest hit by the tsunami, has more
Muslims per square foot than any other country in the world. The
Indonesian government is friendly to the US, but has a problem with
Islamist rebels. These rebels are demonstrably anti-American, having
kidnapped and killed a number of American tourists and missionaries.
These Muslim operated chiefly in the Aceh Province of northern Sumatra,
whose capital was virtually wiped out by the Wave.

Somehow, I can't see why you are even considering donating money for the
relief effort. I'd think, that since you seem to hate Muslims so much,
you would be down on your knees praising God because He destroyed so
many of The Enemy.

-----------------------------------------

I TOLD you not to push my buttons, and you all can bite my ass. I
wouldn't have anything to do with a bunch of bigots, anyway.

Snarling,
Arondelle


--
-Kalera
http://www.beadwife.com
http://www.snipurl.com/kebay

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:45:01 -0500, Dr. Sooz wrote
(in message .com):

She's right.

And I'll disagree with both of you, although I respect and care about
you both. There are many, many worthwhile charities, religious based
and secular who are coming to the aid of the people in Indonesia. I
have not heard of one charity who is even considering the religion of
the victim when dispensing aid.

VJ (who has a kid going to that part of the world, and quite soon,
too) posted a list of charities that the US Government says may be
suspicious, and all are Islamic based. None of them are openly
saying "We're the let's kill Americans charity," because that would
be stupid, but it's possible, even likely that one or more of these
Islamic based charities funds actions that kill Americans. As the mom
of a person who would be right in the crosshairs, VJ asks that people
think twice before giving money to such charities. (VJ's not saying
"demonize Muslims," or saying "don't help the victims," but simply to
think about which charity you prefer to use to transmit your
donation)

Arondelle, exercising her right to disagree, decides that VJ is
wrong, and not so subtly talks about how it is prejudiced (or racist,
I can't remember) to not give money to Islamic charities, because the
people receiving aid "might be more comfortable getting it from their
own faith."

VJ feels attacked, other people jump in, and it ends with Arondelle
pulling out the argument that "just because many terrorists are
Islamic, not all Islamic people are terrorists." Well, duh - and we
know about the Christian terrorists as well. However, something no
one ever mentions is that the US does not officially export
terrorists to Islamic countries with the express purpose of killing
those who do not share the official US faith. (We don't have one,
anyway. The majority of people here are at leat nominally Christian
or Jewish, but we have no state religion) Something that the vast
majority of Islamic countries are guilty of. Indonesia is officially
friendly to the US, but is also locked in a civil war with a faction
who is not at all friendly to the US, and the outcome of that war is
certainly not a sure thing. Besides, Indonesia's brand of
friendliness isn't exactly a what I'd expect of a friend. it's more
like "less of an enemy than other places." (Or "we only hate the US a
little bit these days")

Over the past few days, there has been a real discussion of charity:
who gets it and why, the responsibilities of the givers, and where
else they might be spending money. The fact is that the US gives
more, in total dollars to overseas charity than any other donor
nation. It used to be Japan, but with the implosion of their
economy, that has changed. (With the state of the US economy, it may
well change here, too) We give very little in terms of our GDP,
while some other countries (most vocally Norway), give much larger
portions of their GDP, although the actual dollar figures are dwarfed
by the amounts given by the US.

What no one has mentioned is the responsibility of the recipients.
The Indonesian Minster of Tourism announced today that fewer than 10%
of all the resorts in the Phucket area were damaged in any way, and
that "Indonesia is open for tourist business." Indeed, many European
tourists (the backbone of the area economy) are returning for
vacations, and many aren't noticing anything wrong. Most likely,
this is because the Indonesian government has cleaned up the tourist
areas first.

One thing that shocked me was that this same Minister said that even
without foreign aid, only 0.3% of Indonesia's tourist dollars would
be lost because of the tsunami. It stands to reason then, that once
foreign aid is counted, that Indonesia, at least, will make money on
this horrific tragedy. Compare that to say, Florida, who saw four
tremendous hurricanes in one season. I heard of no foreign aid
dollars flowing into the US because of those natural disasters. (The
loss of life between the two places is incomparable - the US had a
warning system that saved countless lives. The Tsunami area did not)

Arondelle mentioned that the people receiving aid "might be more
comfortable getting it from their own faith." I'll come right out
and say, Tough! I think it's a GOOD thing that these Islamic people
aren't receiving all their aid from Islamic charities, and an even
better thing that the people see that some of their aid is coming
from Christians, Jews and even the hated US. If that makes them a
little uncomfortable, and makes them question the "news stories" that
are broadcast on Al Jazeera every day - Good! (Though I'm sure that
the stories will be twisted in some hideous way regardless - a bad
peanut butter sandwich will become "chemical warfare" by the time it
is broadcast.)

Americans are not demons, and the fact that rank and file Americans
have given far more than the disaster areas can even absorb tells a
lot about us as a people. I'm quite sure that many people here on
RCB gave, even people whose religious beliefs strongly conflict with
those of Islam. Because it's the right thing to do. Because even
all people of conscience see that suffering does not follow religious
boundries. It's not a popular stance to take, but being a Christian,
a Jew or an American does not automatically make you a bad guy.

If there were a charity that was even remotely suspected of funding a
"lets kill Manda fund," you would be right in thinking that I would
be shouting "Don't give these people money!" from the rooftops. Why
is what VJ doing anything different than that? Especially when there
are loads of charities who are under no such suspicion, and most have
much better records of giving high percentages of money to victims
and using minimal amounts of donations as "overhead"?

Now, for the responsibilities of those receiving aid: No one expects
or wants groveling, and anyone who does expect groveling is giving
for a lousy reason. But most people who give do expect that the
recipients to use the resources well, not to waste aid unnecessarily
(although I think most people realize that some aid will be wasted,
at least until infrastructure is back in place) and to show a modicum
of gratitude (even if not overt), and to think reasonably well of the
giver.

People don't like to have their gifts ignored or rubbed back in their
faces, and they would like to think that if the givers needed help
that they would be helped in return. Unfortunately, Americans have
become accustomed to just that kind of response to their generosity.
The main side effect of being universally hated is that giving
foreign aid has become politically unpopular in the US. As Americans
see their employment base move overseas and their standards of living
continue to erode, they are even less likely to want to give money to
people who, rightly or wrongly, are perceived as already benefitting
from American jobs.

I personally give a lot, both to individuals and to charities. Most
of my thoughts on givers and recipients is based on my personal
experience. I know that there are some people that don't even bother
to acknowledge my gift, not even to say that they received it.
(Sometimes I only know that my gift was received becasue my Paypal
balance went down. That stings) There are others who want to pay me
back in some way, even though I am always up front in saying that I
never want repayment - just help someone else who needs it down the
line. I've even had people cut off all contact entirely with me once
they received what they wanted; I can't even begin to fathom the
rationalization behind that.

So yeah, I have my own agenda when deciding on charity. I read a lot
of opinions from a lot of different places, and watch/read the news
from many viewpoints. I've traveled many places and had people tell
me that I can't be an American, because I'm too nice. I get looks of
disbelief when I tell people everywhere that I am about as average as
they come. To me, it is no mystery why a people who pay 1/3 of their
incomes to taxes, a major portion of which is spent overseas, is not
thrilled to be called selfish, cheap or evil.

I think it is a real statement about the goodness of ordinary
American people that they are willing to put aside all the insults
and the fear for their own children to dig deep and give their hard
earned money to help people through a horrendous natural disaster.
Even though some of those people would gladly take the money and then
kill the givers. Don't believe me? Well, a chunk of money is going
to Somalia, whose "victims" dragged the bodies of American servicemen
through the streets of Mogadishu.

Just my two cents, and I know it's not going to be a popular opinion,

Kathy N-V

~~~~~You are joking aren't you? At least about Christians. The
Crusades? The
Spanish Inquistion? The Salem Witch Hunts? To name a few. Every
Christian
needs to study the rise of their own religion. Especially from 1200
onwards.
Just because it happened in the past does NOT excuse it. You want
apologies
from Muslims now? When has there ever been an apology to the midwives
who
were murdered as witches?~~~~

How about the neo-nazis here in the USA? Skinheads? Survivalists?
These are all Christian militias, whether well-organized or not, and
well-funded for the most part. It's insane to say Muslims are the only
ones who terrorize. Good god.