Mokume Gane materials question

Thanks! Glad to hear it. Kind of suspected it from viewing the site. I've
always been a believer that you *can* judge a book by its cover. You just
need the wisdom to know what you're looking at ;-)

GA

"vj" wrote in message
...
vj found this in rec.crafts.jewelry, from "Greyangel"
:

]Hoover and Strong. Anybody
]have opinions or experience dealing with them? Better suggestions?

that's who Oran has dealt with.
it's who i sent my father's coin silver to, to be refined.
no problems.
excellent service.
--
@vicki [SnuggleWench]
(Books) http://www.booksnbytes.com
(Jewelry) http://www.vickijean.com
(Metalsmithing) http://www.snugglewench.com
[it's a Callahan's thing]
-----------
vj -- pounds metal, mother of three "Js", lives in Paradise,
and is generally considered a smarta$$.
Yahoo ID: vjean95967

The PDF is a nice article. Thanks! I'll want to read it more thoroughly
when its not so late ;-) So for both copper and stirling silver, can they
be forged indefinately at black heat or do they need to be annealed
frequently? I think I need to better define forge and fold. My intention
was (after bonding) to draw out the billet then clean it up cold to a flat
clean surface again and cut it in half and bond the two halves as was done
with the initial billet. Assuming the bonding process works, the only
issues I see here is if I can draw the billet without too much damage (like
sqeezing the silver out from between copper layers). Another thought I had
is what happens if I was simply to put a bunch of smallish cut pieces of
silver and copper together in a clay mold and heat it up in a reducing
atmosphere till both metals acutally melt entirely - maybe give it a very
slight stir when melted and then let it cool down? I've successfully melted
down brass this way. The result should be interesting.

GA

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 05:43:29 GMT, "Greyangel"
wrote:

Hi all! I'm new here. I want to make some Mokume Gane for a project I'm
working on right now and was thinking of using copper and stirling
silver.
Is this a workable combination? I read somthing that said annealing
stirling silver too many times will cause it to get brittle through alloy
losses? What I want to do with it is heat, hammer and fold it a few
times.
Now I have pretty good idea of the mechanics of the bonding of metals but
not sure of how these materials will behave in this application and I'd
rather not waste material as pricey as silver in dumb experimenting ;-)
I'm
doing research on the subject before I go spending the money but I never
overlook the value of newsgroups as a resource.
Next question is about the "pickle" mentioned for cleaning up
silver.
What is it usually made of?

Thanks up front for your patience and input!

GA


Unlike iron, nonferrous mokume does not work as well with the heat
hammer and fold. The surface of the metals are prone to oxidation and
the normal process is to occlude the oxygen as much as possible by
having very close fits between the metals being bonded and heating
them in a reducing atmosphere.

The most efficient way is to put all your layers together at once and
clamp them.

Take a look at;
http://www.mokume-gane.com/Papers/SantaFePaper.pdf

I was an undergrad grunt at SIU when we developed "torque plate"
clamping. As far as I know it is still the best way.

As far as the silver, each has it's advantages and disadvantages.

Sterling will bond just fine, But it is hot short. If you are going to
do a lot of hot forging, you have to be very careful about your temps.
It will forge just fine at a black heat, but when it becomes
incandescent, it goes through a very wacky phase change and loses all
structural strength. It certainly won't work for heat and fold
welding.

Fine silver does not have this phase change and hot forges just fine.
It also resists oxidation and is much more forgiving in the welding
stage. However, particularly at red heat, it is much softer than the
copper and tends to squeeze out between the layers of copper.
This does not weaken it's bond, but you must constantly keep the edge
of your billet trimmed to keep from letting the edges fold over.

Safety pickle is a solution of water and sodium bisulfate. There is a
product sold to the jewelry trades called Sparex. But it is cheaper to
go down to the hardware store and by dry granulated pool acid. It is
the same stuff. Don't by liquid pool acid, that is hydrochloric acid.
it will disolve your copper.

Paul K. Dickman

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 00:22:36 -0800, in ôõ "Greyangel"
wrote:

So for both copper and stirling silver, can they
be forged indefinately at black heat or do they need to be annealed
frequently?

Sigh.

Greyangel, you're not listening. You're apparently insisting on doing this the very
much harder way. Your choice, but...

You don't generally forge silver or copper at ANY heat. You forge it cold, at room
temperature. You CAN forge it hot if you like, but sterling silver especially, will
tend to crack more easily if forge hot, especially if forged above it's annealing
temperature, which would be the whole point of hot forging, so it would stay soft. Both
it and copper will get thick oxides, and sterling silver oxidized not just on the
surface, but gets a penetrating oxide into the silver that will then interfere with
bonding, and looks poor

Do your laminating all at once, so in ONE bonding step you get the total number of
layers you wish. THEN do your forging. Patterns in the mokume are developed by forging
and then filing the rough surface flat again, cutting through layers that way, or by
cutting first with chisels, grinding points, rotary files and burrs, drills, or
whatever, also cutting through layers to expose a pattern, and Then rolling or forging
flat again. You can also distort the layers by forging, twisting, or otherwise working
the billet before pattern developement.


I think I need to better define forge and fold. My intention
was (after bonding) to draw out the billet then clean it up cold to a flat
clean surface again and cut it in half and bond the two halves as was done
with the initial billet. Assuming the bonding process works, the only
issues I see here is if I can draw the billet without too much damage (like
sqeezing the silver out from between copper layers).

Dang it, quite thinking like a blacksmith. This is different metal, and works best with
different methods. yes, the method you described is how it's done with pattern steels.
it's NOT how it's done with mokume. For one thing, bonding requires the metal surfaces
to be not only VERY clean, but in good intimate contact. And getting good bonding needs
pressure, which is best achieved if the whole stack of metals being bonded is made of
flat layers, so the whole stack has parallel flat sides. Forging gives you rougher,
more uneven thicknessed layers, and it would be much more difficult to fold a
silver/copper billet and then get the folded structure to have a seam at the fold that
would then properly bond. Doing it all at once, then forging the thick billet down
(which you can do just fine, cold, with annealing as needed now and then when it hardens
up) really IS the way to go. You're way, you're just trying to reinvent the wheel by
methods that have already been shown to not work well, and redoing all the work of those
students in the 60s at SIU, who already tried all those blacksmithing methods before
abandoning them in favor of the methods that have been described to you.

Another thought I had
is what happens if I was simply to put a bunch of smallish cut pieces of
silver and copper together in a clay mold and heat it up in a reducing
atmosphere till both metals acutally melt entirely - maybe give it a very
slight stir when melted and then let it cool down? I've successfully melted
down brass this way. The result should be interesting.

What you would get is a uniform mix of copper and silver, an alloy commonly referred to
as shibuichi, which is generally a copper alloy with varying amounts of silver. Can be
very effective both for it's native color, and for the quite different oxidized patinas
you can get with it, compared to silver or copper alone.

What you will NOT get is a patterned mixed metal billet. The contact between silver and
copper will melt at a temperature way below that of either metal, and once that starts,
the melting quickly proceeds, as each type of metal absorbs the other. Getting any sort
of solid block that was still differentiated between metals would not work with silver
and copper, because of this eutectic alloy that can form. Not the case with all metal
combinations, but with silver and copper, it is. The two metals, once molten at all,
quickly dissove each other, and even without stirring, you'd have a pretty uniform
alloy, not identifiable zones of one or the other in a matrix of some sort. No pattern.
Now, if you're bunch of mixed scraps were so carefully shaped and stacked that no air
spaces existed, so only very slight melting at interfaces between scraps was needed to
create the solid block, then it's theoretically possible to heat just until the scraps
barely started to fuse, then remove the heat. But because of that eutectic alloy
formation where the two metals contact each other, and the tendancy of the molten metal
at the interface to aggressively dissolve more of both parent metals, you're
temperature control and timing would have to be exquisitely precise. It can be done
with a stack of simple flat sheets, but it's harder to control than diffusion bonding
doen without actual liquid phase (melting) diffusion.

Like I already told you, read Jim Binnion's paper carefully. Twice. Pay attention to
the conclusions, without stopping in the middle to latch on to techniques described as
early research as the ways you wish to do this. There are very good reasons the people
doing it these days, do it the way they do.

Then if you wish to persist in doing this hot at the forge by repeated drawing out and
folding, don't come back to us wondering why it didn't work as well as you'd hoped, when
your laminate delaminates and you get blisters and bubbles showing up in the product
that kill your piece.

By the way, if the problem is the lack of a precise temperature controlled kiln, check
out the small amaco kilns with a single setpoint temp that are sold for use in firing
PMC. Only a few hundred bucks last time I checked, and quite useful for a range of
other heat treating and firing problems as well.

or, if production of the billet is too much trouble, consider buying the billet ready
made. Reactive metals inc (www.reactivemetals.com) sells ready made mokume sheet and
rod stock, already patterned, or if you like as raw billet stock. You can get plain 3/8
inch rod, or 1/8 inch sheet in sterling silver and copper, ready for you to forge and
work and otherwise develop a pattern however you wish, as well as a surprising range of
other combinations of metals as well. The link to that page is
http://www.reactivemetals.com/Pages/rmsmukame_gane.htm These products are all made by
Phil Baldwin, another of todays masters of these techniques. His "Shining Wave" product
line is as well made as any mokume in the world today, worth every dollar, both for the
product itself, and for the time and effort and cost it will save you in doing it
yourself, especially if you persist in trying to do it the hard way.

Peter.

vj found this in rec.crafts.jewelry, from "Greyangel"
:

]Yeah I know the ebay folks are moderators of a sort
]to insure sound business practices but I still don't trust it.

i KNOW i don't!

--
@vicki [SnuggleWench]
(Books) http://www.booksnbytes.com
(Jewelry) http://www.vickijean.com
(Metalsmithing) http://www.snugglewench.com
[it's a Callahan's thing]
-----------
vj -- pounds metal, mother of three "Js", lives in Paradise,*
and is generally considered a smarta$$.
Yahoo ID: *vjean95967

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 00:22:28 -0800, in ôõ "Greyangel"
wrote:

Yeah I know the ebay folks are moderators of a sort
to insure sound business practices but I still don't trust it.

Ebay's company policies are intended to promote sound business practices, but they
certainly don't read every auction, nor monitor every seller beyond things like simple
credit checks to try and make sure (not always reliably) that a seller is, at least, who
they say they are and not just out to steal from you. However, ebay auctions are rife
with sellers who seem to play fast and loose with accurate descriptions of things in
attempts to make their stuff seem more desireable. We see ordinary easy to find things
advertised as rare and special, and things like gems often misrepresented as to
quality, or even identity. Synthetics sold without noting that it's synthetic ("hey, it
IS emerald. What difference that it comes from a lab?" was one response I actually got
from one such seller, who DID give me a full refund)

If you know the merchandise well, such as recognizing the product itself by brand and
model, or otherwise can be sure of what you are buying, then as often as not it's a fine
place to find bargains. And there are many sellers who are scrupulously honest. While
their "feedback" system is better than nothing, it still isn't totally reliable, as
ignorant buyers buying from misrepresenting sellers may still be happy, and their
feedback may not reflect reality. Still, with care, you can get decent deals if you pay
close attention. But it clearly is a case of "caveat emptor".

Peter

:-) Sorry if I'm frustrating you. I tend to throw all the ideas floating
around in my head out on the floor to see what kind of responces I get.
You're not the first to say similar things to me in the forums. I am
listening and I am researching. I'm just laying my brain out on the mat
faster than I can absorb all the information. You've convinced me (really)
that I need to chuck out the hot forging stuff. I'm just trying to
establish the boundaries. I will read everything I can get my hands on
before I actually DO anything. Like forge building and heat treating, I
spend a lot of time gathering data before I actually commit myself to a plan
of action and then I will experiment on smaller scales to verify what works.
I absolutely promise that I will not toss around blame for my actions ;-)
I'm a firm believer that I'm am completely responsible for all that I do.
Never tried to sue anybody yet and I never will.

GA

"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
...
On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 00:22:36 -0800, in ôõ "Greyangel"

wrote:

So for both copper and stirling silver, can they
be forged indefinately at black heat or do they need to be annealed
frequently?

Sigh.

Greyangel, you're not listening. You're apparently insisting on doing
this the very
much harder way. Your choice, but...

You don't generally forge silver or copper at ANY heat. You forge it
cold, at room
temperature. You CAN forge it hot if you like, but sterling silver
especially, will
tend to crack more easily if forge hot, especially if forged above it's
annealing
temperature, which would be the whole point of hot forging, so it would
stay soft. Both
it and copper will get thick oxides, and sterling silver oxidized not just
on the
surface, but gets a penetrating oxide into the silver that will then
interfere with
bonding, and looks poor

Do your laminating all at once, so in ONE bonding step you get the total
number of
layers you wish. THEN do your forging. Patterns in the mokume are
developed by forging
and then filing the rough surface flat again, cutting through layers that
way, or by
cutting first with chisels, grinding points, rotary files and burrs,
drills, or
whatever, also cutting through layers to expose a pattern, and Then
rolling or forging
flat again. You can also distort the layers by forging, twisting, or
otherwise working
the billet before pattern developement.


I think I need to better define forge and fold. My intention
was (after bonding) to draw out the billet then clean it up cold to a
flat
clean surface again and cut it in half and bond the two halves as was
done
with the initial billet. Assuming the bonding process works, the only
issues I see here is if I can draw the billet without too much damage
(like
sqeezing the silver out from between copper layers).

Dang it, quite thinking like a blacksmith. This is different metal, and
works best with
different methods. yes, the method you described is how it's done with
pattern steels.
it's NOT how it's done with mokume. For one thing, bonding requires the
metal surfaces
to be not only VERY clean, but in good intimate contact. And getting good
bonding needs
pressure, which is best achieved if the whole stack of metals being bonded
is made of
flat layers, so the whole stack has parallel flat sides. Forging gives
you rougher,
more uneven thicknessed layers, and it would be much more difficult to
fold a
silver/copper billet and then get the folded structure to have a seam at
the fold that
would then properly bond. Doing it all at once, then forging the thick
billet down
(which you can do just fine, cold, with annealing as needed now and then
when it hardens
up) really IS the way to go. You're way, you're just trying to reinvent
the wheel by
methods that have already been shown to not work well, and redoing all the
work of those
students in the 60s at SIU, who already tried all those blacksmithing
methods before
abandoning them in favor of the methods that have been described to you.

Another thought I had
is what happens if I was simply to put a bunch of smallish cut pieces of
silver and copper together in a clay mold and heat it up in a reducing
atmosphere till both metals acutally melt entirely - maybe give it a
very
slight stir when melted and then let it cool down? I've successfully
melted
down brass this way. The result should be interesting.

What you would get is a uniform mix of copper and silver, an alloy
commonly referred to
as shibuichi, which is generally a copper alloy with varying amounts of
silver. Can be
very effective both for it's native color, and for the quite different
oxidized patinas
you can get with it, compared to silver or copper alone.

What you will NOT get is a patterned mixed metal billet. The contact
between silver and
copper will melt at a temperature way below that of either metal, and once
that starts,
the melting quickly proceeds, as each type of metal absorbs the other.
Getting any sort
of solid block that was still differentiated between metals would not work
with silver
and copper, because of this eutectic alloy that can form. Not the case
with all metal
combinations, but with silver and copper, it is. The two metals, once
molten at all,
quickly dissove each other, and even without stirring, you'd have a pretty
uniform
alloy, not identifiable zones of one or the other in a matrix of some
sort. No pattern.
Now, if you're bunch of mixed scraps were so carefully shaped and stacked
that no air
spaces existed, so only very slight melting at interfaces between scraps
was needed to
create the solid block, then it's theoretically possible to heat just
until the scraps
barely started to fuse, then remove the heat. But because of that
eutectic alloy
formation where the two metals contact each other, and the tendancy of the
molten metal
at the interface to aggressively dissolve more of both parent metals,
you're
temperature control and timing would have to be exquisitely precise. It
can be done
with a stack of simple flat sheets, but it's harder to control than
diffusion bonding
doen without actual liquid phase (melting) diffusion.

Like I already told you, read Jim Binnion's paper carefully. Twice. Pay
attention to
the conclusions, without stopping in the middle to latch on to techniques
described as
early research as the ways you wish to do this. There are very good
reasons the people
doing it these days, do it the way they do.

Then if you wish to persist in doing this hot at the forge by repeated
drawing out and
folding, don't come back to us wondering why it didn't work as well as
you'd hoped, when
your laminate delaminates and you get blisters and bubbles showing up in
the product
that kill your piece.

By the way, if the problem is the lack of a precise temperature controlled
kiln, check
out the small amaco kilns with a single setpoint temp that are sold for
use in firing
PMC. Only a few hundred bucks last time I checked, and quite useful for a
range of
other heat treating and firing problems as well.

or, if production of the billet is too much trouble, consider buying the
billet ready
made. Reactive metals inc (www.reactivemetals.com) sells ready made
mokume sheet and
rod stock, already patterned, or if you like as raw billet stock. You can
get plain 3/8
inch rod, or 1/8 inch sheet in sterling silver and copper, ready for you
to forge and
work and otherwise develop a pattern however you wish, as well as a
surprising range of
other combinations of metals as well. The link to that page is
http://www.reactivemetals.com/Pages/rmsmukame_gane.htm These products are
all made by
Phil Baldwin, another of todays masters of these techniques. His "Shining
Wave" product
line is as well made as any mokume in the world today, worth every dollar,
both for the
product itself, and for the time and effort and cost it will save you in
doing it
yourself, especially if you persist in trying to do it the hard way.

Peter.

Book:

Mokume Gane
A Comprehensive Study
by Steve Midgett

http://www.mokume.com/bookvid3.html

Here is a review of the book: http://www.lapidaryjournal.com/books/mokumegane.cfm

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com