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#21
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Richard Medway wrote:
Nicely put Ted... SNIP If our Jack tires to put himself in others shoes, instead of accusing the members, with the experience he needs, of being trolls, perhaps a little more respect/humility might be forthcoming, and people mightactually want to help the poor lad with his troubles? Nah! Richard Medway in Los Angeles.(An expat Brit) Nicely put Richard. I'm sure there'll be a rebuttal to your post from Jack soon. Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
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#22
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Jack Schmidling wrote:
"Richard Medway" I have only been doing this stuff as a hobby for a few years, but that helps me to understand the more experenced craftsmen here, who may have been metalsmiths for ten, twenty or thirty years, and why they are so incredulous by our Jack's approach.... Isn't that commonly known as "hidebound"? There really is more than one way to approach most any craft. I find it incredulous, like many on this group, that a self-professed multi-millionaire, with all the time in the world, able to buy a complete jewellers supply house with all the wonderful equipment in it, able to buy gold and platinum by the pound, hire the best teachers available, is busy nickel and diming his way through the very basics, with worse equipment than I have.... Again... a different approach. I built a faceting machine to learn how to facet. I am building a roller mill to learn how to make wire. I don't want a shop full of your idea of wonderful equipment. I want to understand the process, make what I can and buy what I must... in that order. It has nothing to do with money.... it's just my way. " and blaming the elders on this group because it's difficult! You can't be serious. I have only complained that instead of answering simple questions, they prefer to brag about what great masters they are and how stupid I am. and people mightactually want to help the poor lad with his troubles? Sorry to disappoint you but I have received a great deal of help from many folks in this forum and isn't it strange that there is no such conflict on the Orchid forum? That's because Orchid is quite heavily censored by it's owner. Orchid is much larger than r.c.j., with many more participants world wide. If it were not censored as it is, you would receive many more postings of the kind you have been getting here. Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#23
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Since I just found this group I have no opinion whatsoever on the
individuals who spend time here. I agree that those looking for knowlege should respect those from whom they are requesting it. I also agree that many people have learned "tricks of the trade" (whatever the trade) and have a right to be proud of that and to keep it close as a personal achievement. But - the sharing of knowlege is a shining light of humanity. It binds us together as the hoarding of it does not (way philosophical huh? sorry.) People learn best by sharing between individuals and the overall body of knowlege grows more rapidly that way. And lets face it, not everybody gets the most out of reading a book. I suppose the base question to this discussion is if anybody is actually worried about damaging their livelyhood by sharing information. My own opinion on people in general is such that I don't believe more than one individual in in a hundred has the commitment to put knowlege to the workbench and true craftsmen by nature are statistically few and far between. Those that are bound by a shared interest should support each other. The rest are just leaves on the wind. GA "Ted Frater" wrote in message ... NE333RO wrote: I woke this morning with the above title in my head. So I asked myself the question? why is it that this trade is accused of being reluctant to divulge its knowhow? particularly on this newsgroup I have never asked the question "who has the right to know." From my standpoint everybody has the "right" to know. Nor have I ever seen (with the exception of pricing) a question asked, that was not answered because of a "right to know." There are certainly many different personalities on here, just as there are in the real world. There might even be a few who think that way, but I have yet to see any evidence of that. On the other hand, there are many of us who have worked hard for the knowledge that we have, and do desire/require a certain level of respect from a questioner if they want the benefit of what we know. We all have different ideas about what form that respect should take. A real world example would be someone walking up to me on the street and saying "Hey asshole, where's 54th avenue?" They would get no answer from me (or I suspect most people) and would get a rather large piece of my mind. I would have a similar response for someone that TOLD me I was going to give them directions. I have the answer, they don't, I expect some common courtesy. I also have little patience for those that get my directions and then say "no, that's not where it is." If they knew so much, why did they need to ask. When it comes to jewelry questions, I have some things that I would like from a questioner, and some things that I require. Just like in the real world. I would like someone asking a question to do some research up front. I don't require it, but it's nice to know that they are serious enough to have looked into it first. It tells me that they are serious and I'm not wasting my time. What I REQUIRE from a questioner, is some common curtesy. Ask, don't tell. Listen don't talk. A bad attitude gets a response in kind. Pricing is the one subject on here where questions generally are not answered due to "need to know." As in every other business, my costs are not the business of those outside of the jewelry business. I choose not to cut my own throat by telling consumers what my markup/costs are. and I include myself in this when other skills like those recently mentioned here, for example beer, bread, sausage making etc, the knowhow is freely available everywhere? for the asking. What particular knowledge of the jewelry business is not out there, easily accessible, to the general public? With the exception of pricing, I can think of no deep dark knowledge, hidden from the public. Herin lies I think , the answer. Any hard won knowhow isnt for free, and I dont think ever will be. The enquirer has to be seen to be making a real effort first before being admitted to the mysteries of the craft. ( As described in medieval apprenticship indentures) I am bound by this tradition out of respect for all the smiths that have gone before me, and whose knowhow Ive learned in the same way as they did. What do you all think? I know of no "mysteries of the craft," and don't feel bound by any tradition. I do, however, expect a certain amount of curtesy from somebody that want's to benefit from a pool of experience that I have worked long and hard to obtain. Seems like a cheap price to me. Hi All, I suppose as usual Im thinking from my own standpoint. where you say you know of no knowledge thats not easily available, I guess your right when it applies to the work of a jeweller. Yes just about everything you need to know is out there. however much as I appreciate the work of jewellers in the true sense of the word, My work has mainly been involved in wrought work on a larger scale . In this field I certainly have techniques that are not generally available to the metal smith and in certain circumstances have never been used before. I do consider these techniques to be valuable in the commercial sense and only my closest relatives know of them. For example one of my product uses titanium 1/4in thick is cold forged into bowls and dishes. How its done is commercially very valuable.and therefore not disclosed in any way to the buyer. Or anyone else for that matter. Also In another product line ive made over many years how I achieve the results is not known. This involved the fusion of stainless steel in a particular way to solve a bracelet design problem. Strangely a design for the "Dark ages" period I was interpreting . As of now theres no one to follow on with my workshop and techniques, tho my son just 21 knows just about everything ive done. Thank you everyone for some very enlightening comments. Lets keep on metal working. Regards Ted Frater |
#24
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Greyangel wrote:
Since I just found this group I have no opinion whatsoever on the individuals who spend time here. I agree that those looking for knowlege should respect those from whom they are requesting it. I also agree that many people have learned "tricks of the trade" (whatever the trade) and have a right to be proud of that and to keep it close as a personal achievement. But - the sharing of knowlege is a shining light of humanity. It binds us together as the hoarding of it does not (way philosophical huh? sorry.) People learn best by sharing between individuals and the overall body of knowlege grows more rapidly that way. And lets face it, not everybody gets the most out of reading a book. I suppose the base question to this discussion is if anybody is actually worried about damaging their livelyhood by sharing information. My own opinion on people in general is such that I don't believe more than one individual in in a hundred has the commitment to put knowlege to the workbench and true craftsmen by nature are statistically few and far between. Those that are bound by a shared interest should support each other. The rest are just leaves on the wind. GA "Ted Frater" wrote in message ... NE333RO wrote: I woke this morning with the above title in my head. So I asked myself the question? why is it that this trade is accused of being reluctant to divulge its knowhow? particularly on this newsgroup I have never asked the question "who has the right to know." From my standpoint everybody has the "right" to know. Nor have I ever seen (with the exception of pricing) a question asked, that was not answered because of a "right to know." There are certainly many different personalities on here, just as there are in the real world. There might even be a few who think that way, but I have yet to see any evidence of that. On the other hand, there are many of us who have worked hard for the knowledge that we have, and do desire/require a certain level of respect from a questioner if they want the benefit of what we know. We all have different ideas about what form that respect should take. A real world example would be someone walking up to me on the street and saying "Hey asshole, where's 54th avenue?" They would get no answer from me (or I suspect most people) and would get a rather large piece of my mind. I would have a similar response for someone that TOLD me I was going to give them directions. I have the answer, they don't, I expect some common courtesy. I also have little patience for those that get my directions and then say "no, that's not where it is." If they knew so much, why did they need to ask. When it comes to jewelry questions, I have some things that I would like from a questioner, and some things that I require. Just like in the real world. I would like someone asking a question to do some research up front. I don't require it, but it's nice to know that they are serious enough to have looked into it first. It tells me that they are serious and I'm not wasting my time. What I REQUIRE from a questioner, is some common curtesy. Ask, don't tell. Listen don't talk. A bad attitude gets a response in kind. Pricing is the one subject on here where questions generally are not answered due to "need to know." As in every other business, my costs are not the business of those outside of the jewelry business. I choose not to cut my own throat by telling consumers what my markup/costs are. and I include myself in this when other skills like those recently mentioned here, for example beer, bread, sausage making etc, the knowhow is freely available everywhere? for the asking. What particular knowledge of the jewelry business is not out there, easily accessible, to the general public? With the exception of pricing, I can think of no deep dark knowledge, hidden from the public. Herin lies I think , the answer. Any hard won knowhow isnt for free, and I dont think ever will be. The enquirer has to be seen to be making a real effort first before being admitted to the mysteries of the craft. ( As described in medieval apprenticship indentures) I am bound by this tradition out of respect for all the smiths that have gone before me, and whose knowhow Ive learned in the same way as they did. What do you all think? I know of no "mysteries of the craft," and don't feel bound by any tradition. I do, however, expect a certain amount of curtesy from somebody that want's to benefit from a pool of experience that I have worked long and hard to obtain. Seems like a cheap price to me. Hi All, I suppose as usual Im thinking from my own standpoint. where you say you know of no knowledge thats not easily available, I guess your right when it applies to the work of a jeweller. Yes just about everything you need to know is out there. however much as I appreciate the work of jewellers in the true sense of the word, My work has mainly been involved in wrought work on a larger scale . In this field I certainly have techniques that are not generally available to the metal smith and in certain circumstances have never been used before. I do consider these techniques to be valuable in the commercial sense and only my closest relatives know of them. For example one of my product uses titanium 1/4in thick is cold forged into bowls and dishes. How its done is commercially very valuable.and therefore not disclosed in any way to the buyer. Or anyone else for that matter. Also In another product line ive made over many years how I achieve the results is not known. This involved the fusion of stainless steel in a particular way to solve a bracelet design problem. Strangely a design for the "Dark ages" period I was interpreting . As of now theres no one to follow on with my workshop and techniques, tho my son just 21 knows just about everything ive done. Thank you everyone for some very enlightening comments. Lets keep on metal working. Regards Ted Frater Hi GA, Well, the past has caught up with me! thanks for your comments, as I was the individual that wrote that little piece, that turned out to be somewhat controvertial. no I have no quarrel with you over the sharing of knowledge on a general level, for example helping say Africans to find and use water in a clean way, or helping other aspiring metal smiths to get started. what I was really referring to was the giving away of technical knowledge that is commercially valuable, that took a long time (= money) to develop . If this became freely available say to an opportunist big jewellery manufacturer who would mass produce and market through his own outlets, the original developer without any intelectual rights to his idea would certainly not be rewarded for his time and ingenuity.. That unfortunately is the real world we live in where money ie profit becomes the prime mover in big organisations. they know that the little man hasnt a chance of achieving justice against the big man. It is this category of knowlege that the right to know does not apply. hope this helps Ted Frater Dorset UK, |
#25
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I understand your point. Where innovation is concerned I see nothing wrong
with keeping it close. Kind of said that in the last post. I'm was referring more to established practices and technical knowledge. These aren't the kind of thing that a large company would be ignorant of but the hobbiest may need to know in order to be successful. After that personal drive and creativity can find their own course. GA "Ted Frater" wrote in message ... Greyangel wrote: Since I just found this group I have no opinion whatsoever on the individuals who spend time here. I agree that those looking for knowlege should respect those from whom they are requesting it. I also agree that many people have learned "tricks of the trade" (whatever the trade) and have a right to be proud of that and to keep it close as a personal achievement. But - the sharing of knowlege is a shining light of humanity. It binds us together as the hoarding of it does not (way philosophical huh? sorry.) People learn best by sharing between individuals and the overall body of knowlege grows more rapidly that way. And lets face it, not everybody gets the most out of reading a book. I suppose the base question to this discussion is if anybody is actually worried about damaging their livelyhood by sharing information. My own opinion on people in general is such that I don't believe more than one individual in in a hundred has the commitment to put knowlege to the workbench and true craftsmen by nature are statistically few and far between. Those that are bound by a shared interest should support each other. The rest are just leaves on the wind. GA "Ted Frater" wrote in message ... NE333RO wrote: I woke this morning with the above title in my head. So I asked myself the question? why is it that this trade is accused of being reluctant to divulge its knowhow? particularly on this newsgroup I have never asked the question "who has the right to know." From my standpoint everybody has the "right" to know. Nor have I ever seen (with the exception of pricing) a question asked, that was not answered because of a "right to know." There are certainly many different personalities on here, just as there are in the real world. There might even be a few who think that way, but I have yet to see any evidence of that. On the other hand, there are many of us who have worked hard for the knowledge that we have, and do desire/require a certain level of respect from a questioner if they want the benefit of what we know. We all have different ideas about what form that respect should take. A real world example would be someone walking up to me on the street and saying "Hey asshole, where's 54th avenue?" They would get no answer from me (or I suspect most people) and would get a rather large piece of my mind. I would have a similar response for someone that TOLD me I was going to give them directions. I have the answer, they don't, I expect some common courtesy. I also have little patience for those that get my directions and then say "no, that's not where it is." If they knew so much, why did they need to ask. When it comes to jewelry questions, I have some things that I would like from a questioner, and some things that I require. Just like in the real world. I would like someone asking a question to do some research up front. I don't require it, but it's nice to know that they are serious enough to have looked into it first. It tells me that they are serious and I'm not wasting my time. What I REQUIRE from a questioner, is some common curtesy. Ask, don't tell. Listen don't talk. A bad attitude gets a response in kind. Pricing is the one subject on here where questions generally are not answered due to "need to know." As in every other business, my costs are not the business of those outside of the jewelry business. I choose not to cut my own throat by telling consumers what my markup/costs are. and I include myself in this when other skills like those recently mentioned here, for example beer, bread, sausage making etc, the knowhow is freely available everywhere? for the asking. What particular knowledge of the jewelry business is not out there, easily accessible, to the general public? With the exception of pricing, I can think of no deep dark knowledge, hidden from the public. Herin lies I think , the answer. Any hard won knowhow isnt for free, and I dont think ever will be. The enquirer has to be seen to be making a real effort first before being admitted to the mysteries of the craft. ( As described in medieval apprenticship indentures) I am bound by this tradition out of respect for all the smiths that have gone before me, and whose knowhow Ive learned in the same way as they did. What do you all think? I know of no "mysteries of the craft," and don't feel bound by any tradition. I do, however, expect a certain amount of curtesy from somebody that want's to benefit from a pool of experience that I have worked long and hard to obtain. Seems like a cheap price to me. Hi All, I suppose as usual Im thinking from my own standpoint. where you say you know of no knowledge thats not easily available, I guess your right when it applies to the work of a jeweller. Yes just about everything you need to know is out there. however much as I appreciate the work of jewellers in the true sense of the word, My work has mainly been involved in wrought work on a larger scale . In this field I certainly have techniques that are not generally available to the metal smith and in certain circumstances have never been used before. I do consider these techniques to be valuable in the commercial sense and only my closest relatives know of them. For example one of my product uses titanium 1/4in thick is cold forged into bowls and dishes. How its done is commercially very valuable.and therefore not disclosed in any way to the buyer. Or anyone else for that matter. Also In another product line ive made over many years how I achieve the results is not known. This involved the fusion of stainless steel in a particular way to solve a bracelet design problem. Strangely a design for the "Dark ages" period I was interpreting . As of now theres no one to follow on with my workshop and techniques, tho my son just 21 knows just about everything ive done. Thank you everyone for some very enlightening comments. Lets keep on metal working. Regards Ted Frater Hi GA, Well, the past has caught up with me! thanks for your comments, as I was the individual that wrote that little piece, that turned out to be somewhat controvertial. no I have no quarrel with you over the sharing of knowledge on a general level, for example helping say Africans to find and use water in a clean way, or helping other aspiring metal smiths to get started. what I was really referring to was the giving away of technical knowledge that is commercially valuable, that took a long time (= money) to develop . If this became freely available say to an opportunist big jewellery manufacturer who would mass produce and market through his own outlets, the original developer without any intelectual rights to his idea would certainly not be rewarded for his time and ingenuity.. That unfortunately is the real world we live in where money ie profit becomes the prime mover in big organisations. they know that the little man hasnt a chance of achieving justice against the big man. It is this category of knowlege that the right to know does not apply. hope this helps Ted Frater Dorset UK, |
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