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#61
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A necklace I am proud of :)
Charlie wrote:
Sale and return, but I've been having good sales so far. Think I couldgo full time by the end of the year if I can find a studio and get a couple more galleries! Charlie. "Ted Frater" wrote in message ... Charlie wrote: Charlie. (I'm in three galleries and counting... does that make me a professional?) It depends, have the galleries paid you for the work? or is it on sale or return? or were they comissions from them? Only if youve been at it at least a few years and you do it full time and you earn a living from it , and the galleries are buying from you, then maybe you might be a professional. If its on sale or return your giving the galleries items to fill their shelf display case space at no cost to them. only you . If theve bought it your part of the way there. Otherwise no. Good to hear your making progress. Bear in mind If you get your own studio, in the right place so customers come to you, youll be in competition with your current gallery outlets. however if you design, make and market your own work in your own space youll have all the work but youll make all the profit. If you have your own studion full with your work it will create a better impression than if your in a gallery with other craftspeople. you need to be good at all the skills. you might just prefer to make instead of marketing as well. How do you see this way working for you? In other words atre you up to it? |
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#62
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A necklace I am proud of :)
HareBall wrote in
: "likedo" wrote in : I just joined this group ....what is happening to this world? Just simple respect for each other and for each individuals capabilities and knowledge would be nice ! We are all different but not one of us is superior to the other. We all create differently and what we create will appeal to different people. Isn't that a good thing ...wouldn't it be boring if we all had the same likes and dislikes...it's what makes our life a challenge... When looking around at other peoples creations , I might not like what I see ...but I still have respect for the person and what they have made. There will always be someone out there who likes what you've made. But as a store owner I know that a negative attitude doesn't sell stuff !! Remain positive , love what you make and have respect for what others make ....bad vibes travel a lot faster and further than good ones ...... I suggest working on the good ones ! You haven't been around USNET long have you? There are certain people that will run down most anything you post and think they have the most wonderful things(even if they look like machine pieces). In Ireland they're called begrudgers. -- Saint Séimí mac Liam Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve Prophet of The Great Tagger Canonized December '99 |
#63
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A necklace I am proud of :)
Well, I'd love to have a workshop in a centre with other artists so I don't
have to be on my own all the time! Living in deepest Wales means that I won't be too much competition for my galleries anyway as they're spread across the country at the moment. My Dad and I are looking at going into business together to open an artist cooperative with a gallery run by the artists. Not a huge money spinner, but I guess it's better to be happy and surviving than miserable and poor! Charlie. "Ted Frater" wrote in message ... Charlie wrote: Sale and return, but I've been having good sales so far. Think I couldgo full time by the end of the year if I can find a studio and get a couple more galleries! Charlie. "Ted Frater" wrote in message ... Charlie wrote: Charlie. (I'm in three galleries and counting... does that make me a professional?) It depends, have the galleries paid you for the work? or is it on sale or return? or were they comissions from them? Only if youve been at it at least a few years and you do it full time and you earn a living from it , and the galleries are buying from you, then maybe you might be a professional. If its on sale or return your giving the galleries items to fill their shelf display case space at no cost to them. only you . If theve bought it your part of the way there. Otherwise no. Good to hear your making progress. Bear in mind If you get your own studio, in the right place so customers come to you, youll be in competition with your current gallery outlets. however if you design, make and market your own work in your own space youll have all the work but youll make all the profit. If you have your own studion full with your work it will create a better impression than if your in a gallery with other craftspeople. you need to be good at all the skills. you might just prefer to make instead of marketing as well. How do you see this way working for you? In other words atre you up to it? |
#64
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A necklace I am proud of :)
good and bad vibes
We all have the capacity to go for the jugular when we feel threatened, our ego is offended, or even if we're just turned off by something. I'm certainly no exception, so I'm writing this basically for myself, but you can read it if you like. It's a little known fact that humans tried unsuccessfully to domesticate a skunk before they did a cat. ;-) First they taught him not to use his scent glands indiscriminately. Then they trained him in the arts and high culture and groomed him until he became well educated and well respected among his peers for his many talents and wonderous accomplishments. But even when he was smiling and being all friendly and nice, he still STANK, emitting a very subtle, but foul and smelly stink. He couldn't help it anymore than being born with a white stripe down his back. And that's why we have cats rather than skunks as pets! :-) Whenever your selling jewelry, you're really selling yourself. So, it's a good thing people aren't the same as skunks. We have the ability to change our basic nature. By not acting on negative thoughts, that part of our psychological "scent gland" will fade, grow weaker and demand less attention from us; and thereby alienate and annoy far fewer people. -jdk- |
#65
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**PETER** A necklace I am proud of :)
At the risk of sounding overly simplistic, I just had an idea I wanted to
throw out. It seems to me that the biggest obstacle in this situation is education of the consumer. As the price of the piece is usually their biggest consideration, I don't believe as much thought is given to the quality of design, how well their purchase will hold up over time, or the comfort in knowing that their piece of jewelry is a crafted work of art. What I would propose is composition and posting of an additional FAQ, reached through consensus of the professional jewelers in the group, detailing the following: 1. Common myths and misconceptions that are propagated in the marketing of jewelry in the retail outlets to goad toward a sale. 2. Shortcuts that are commonly made in the production of retail jewelry and the long-term ramifications of them. (Poor channel setting, nickel-based alloys, use of white gold over platinum, thin ring shanks, etc.) 3. Any other information that would enable the consumer to discern the quality of his prospective purchase. My ultimate hope would be that in the search for quality, beauty, and well thought-out designs, the customer's search would inevitably lead them to employing a professional's service. I am a simple hobbyist with no sales experience, and I have always been grateful to find advice here in the newsgroup. It really does break my heart to see truly talented artists like Abrasha, as well as all of the other gifted professionals, get caught in this situation. I have a great deal of admiration for the professional jeweler. More to the point, I admire anyone that has dedicated their life's work to creating jewelry of both originality and lasting beauty. Rich Rader "Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message ... On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:00:44 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Marilee J. Layman" wrote: snip of a thought-provoking post So then. Here's the question for the group. How can someone like Abrasha, or other fine artists who's integrity and skills with their craft lead them to put quality first, and thus produce a really high end product, but in perhaps more limited quantitites, suceed in today's marketplace? It's not enough to just have a good web site, since as anyone who's looked at Abrasha's can see, he's done that part already. So what else? Peter Rowe |
#66
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A necklace I am proud of :)
Mr. Rowe,
I have been interested in the lapidary arts for some time now and have been privilaged to meet and learn from some fine people. I found your newsgroup, read it with some regularity, and have learned more. Some of the things I learned I really didn't want to know. [the thread A necklace I am proud of] Mr. Abrasha is a talented man from what I see on his web site, but unfortunately we can't all go to school in Germany for two years and be coddled by a master jeweler. Some of us have had to use other means to earn a living and shiney things just keep calling us to try. It seems strange for him to feel threatened by competition from such a low level after reading his episile on his website, even if he does use discarded CO2 cartriges. The inclusion of "A Confession" really put the lid on my pot. I get the feeling he should have signed it since it seems to express his ego so well. Your how to comments to others have helped me and I will keep reading the news. Venting session is closed Charlie "Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message news On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:02:59 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Abrasha wrote: I think I'm going to hang myself now, or maybe I'll just quietly slit my wrists. Oh no, I can't do that today, I have to make 60 chocolate covered profiteroles for the school potluck tomorrow night. Oh well, I'll kill myself the day after tomorrow over this "pretty necklace" ****. Sheesh. Get off your high horse, will ya? It's better than that, not deserving of such scorn and derision and you should know it. 1. She's not representing herself as a trained fine artist, trained jeweler, or much of anything else like that. She's a hobbyist enjoying putting some things together for her own enjoyment. Starting just from scratch, without other training and no actual intention of doing this as some major career path, does this not count as an enjoyable and valid thing to do? I have a sister in law who sews. Pretty well. Her quilts are wonderful. But she's also made ordinary stuff, including for me one year, a bathrobe of micro fleece. ****ty as a bath robe, because the micro fleece won't absorb water to dry you off after the shower. But instead, it's a very warm house coat for those chilly evenings. Powder blue may not be my best color, but I like the thing, and it's maker did it with the best of intentions. So I don't kill myself over the lack of a major fashion label in this bathrobe of mine. And you shouldn't kill yourself because some eager beginner produces a reasonably basic but decently enough made wire wrap and bead necklace. yeah, it's not great art. But I'm sure she likes the look when she wears it, and I'm sure her friends agree. I've seen stuff I'd consider a whole heck of a lot worse get actually sold commercially. 2. it's a darn sight better than "paint by numbers" level stuff or a kit built from instructions. It may not be earth shaking, art world turning, revolutionary design, but at least she's not just following some printed instructions found somewhere. or at least I don't think she is, or at least, not totally... or I dunno... Still it's a lot better than some I've seen. 3. it's usable, and though not fine art, as decorative as any of the commercially made similar costume pieces with which many ordinary people are quite happy to decorate themselves. it's a lot more decorative and useful than the kitschy beaded teddy bears someone else posted. Those, arguably, are not even jewelry. This most certainly is. 4. The posting links to a plain jpeg image on an otherwise plain page, just as I've repeatedly asked posters to do. it does not link to some commercialor semi commercial page on a yahoo group or something. Surely this following of the group rules should be worth at least *Some* brownie points... And remember, nothing in the group's charter or history suggests it's only for seasoned pros. Beginners at any level have always been welcome along with the professionals and anyone in between. And to Flic: Don't pay attention to Abrasha. he often seems to criticize beginners who come along hoping for approval or help but who's skills and training, both technically and aesthetically, don't seem to meet the high standards he sets for himself. Especially when that beginner is working with really basic methods like beads on wire, etc. He's well known on usenet for this attitude, which can be difficult to comprehend for those who actually know him, since in person, he's actually a really nice and generally polite fellow, not to mention a top notch jewelry artist, and one of the finer craftsmen I've ever met. It's kind of a keyboard version of road rage, I think. He'll disagree perhaps, butmy point is, don't let him scare you away or discourage you. Yeah, your necklace won't win great awards as highly original art, but that should surprise nobody, least of all you, given that you're new at this. The bit with double strands or more, or tassels in the middle, etc etc, have all been done by other artists many times, for millennia. But that doesn't mean it doesn't still look nice, because it did millennia ago, and still does now. The color appears good on you, and you've not chosen a combination of colors that clash or something. So I'd overall agree with you that you did a nice job. Now, if I were doing it, I'd probably use actual gemstones, not glass beads. And my loops would be smaller and neater, and soldered shut or something, or I'd come up with some sort of much less visible joint or unusual mechanism design for the linkages. And of course, when done, there would be a few more zeros in the price. So it goes. There are many such technical and design possibilities, many of which are within your capabilities even with limited tools and equipment. But no matter. You've got time. Keep experimenting, one step at a time. And don't let the bad mouthed folks get you down. Get some good books on jewelry making and metal work. You can get some good ideas for some more complex constructions that won't be so similar to everything other people have done. At the beginning, it's OK to mostly learn how to make your own versions of things others have done. But as quickly as you can, try to work out your own methods, so you're not just copying other peoples ideas you've seen. (I'm not saying you did this here, at least not intentionally. Just saying you should make an effort NOT to just do one yourself when you see something you like from someone else.) Peter Rowe who's indubitably stepping in something squishy with this post. No matter. With the rain we've had here in Seattle since Christmas, soft squishy ground seems the norm. And this time of year is slow enough I've got the time for some good entertaining yet silly discussions. And to all. remember, personal attacks and flame wars are not allowed. attacking ideas, or jewelry, is fine. |
#67
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A necklace I am proud of :)
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 20:40:48 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Charlie Johns"
wrote: Mr. Rowe, I have been interested in the lapidary arts for some time now and have been privilaged to meet and learn from some fine people. I found your newsgroup, read it with some regularity, and have learned more. I'm glad to hear that. But one short bit of clarification. It's not MY newsgroup. I'm only the moderator. UJsenet newsgroups are, by definition, public domain and public property. I do not own it. I just run it, and do so at the pleasure and request of the readers, as a volunteer, not an owner.it may seem like it's mine, since all posts have to come through me. But inthe end, it's YOUR newsgroup. Some of the things I learned I really didn't want to know. [the thread A necklace I am proud of] Perhaps. But it's also the liveliest and bisiest conversation the group has had in a good long while. nerves getting touched means issues are real. Andthat often means not everyone is pleased. Sometimes, nobody is pleased. But even so, sometimes ideas worth expressing get floated around, and even angry people can sometimes learn something of use, if they calm down enough to try andbe objective about the issues. Mr. Abrasha is a talented man from what I see on his web site, but unfortunately we can't all go to school in Germany for two years and be coddled by a master jeweler. Some of us have had to use other means to earn a living and shiney things just keep calling us to try. I should let him answer that, but I can assure you that coddling is the very last word any of those masters or their students, would use to describe that education. It's rigorous, highly competative, and a whole LOT of work to complete. By the way, unlike here in the States, if you can get over tothe jewelry school in Pfortzheim, tuition is free (at least I think it still is.). You'd need living expenses, but unlike schools here with high tuitions, difficult to get into, there the state pays for the school. Easy to get in, not so easy to stay in. Don't know if this is fully still the case, or whether there are residency requirements now, but this is how it used to be. It ends up being somewhat easier to go get that education than some people think. Iknow folks who've gone over there on a shoestring budget, barely speaking any German, who've found ways to make it work. All depends on how high you set your sights, and how much you want it. It seems strange for him to feel threatened by competition from such a low level after reading his episile on his website, even if he does use discarded CO2 cartriges. You know, this illustrates an interesting difference between art, and the mundane. You're referring to the CO2 cartridges as though this was some demeaning material. The thing is, it doesn't matter much what material we use to create art (or jewelery, whether art or not), what matters is the thought and creativity behind it. It's the ideas, not the material, that can really make a work unique and stand apart from the pack. Those of us who've gone to art school, here in the States or in Germany or elsewhere, spent a lot of time learning the history of art, and the history of our craft, as well as the technique, in order that we'd not then go spending time reinventing the wheel and calling it ours It was drummed into us that originality of thought is important, and that without that originality, the work is either worth less, maybe far less, or even worthy only of the dirision leveled at plagiaristic works when in written form. The public readily accepts that this is badwhen an author copies the work of another, or a muscian copies the music of another and tries to call it his (rather than an arrangement or something). Yet in jewelry, many of these same people sometimes seem to even prefer works that are staid and familar copies or reiterations of what's already been done, sometimes countless times before. Some, even jewelers, including a few who've chimed in on this thread, seem to think there's nothing new left to do, so that makes it all OK. Those who've been trained in the arts, though, understand the difference, and hold not just their own work, but that of others, to those standards they've been taught. And this creates problems. Since that means they're holding higher standards than either the public, or many of their competitors. In the end, it canmean that for all the high cost or hard work of a fine arts education, it can end up almost being a commercial handicap, since if one is now bound to be original, and works hard to avoid anything else, then one is playing within a smaller field than the overall bunch of folks making things, and doing it with a bunch of ethical inhibitions that their competition, and maybe even the public, doesn't recognize. it's a quandry in the art schools, who have trouble justifying the cost and time of that education when the graduates thereof then seem to have a harder time competing in the marketplace than those self taught folks who're really happy to have learned the familiar stuff, and how to do this and that, and happilyset about mass producing the workt that the public already knows, and is happy to buy, while the artist sits by with his body of work that he's agonized for years to develope, selling less because the public isn't quite ready to be that advanced in it's thinking. it's an oddity to the jewelry field, since in fashion or music, new is gobbled up as quickly as creative minds can dream it up. Please note, and this is IMPORTANT. I'm not trying at all to imply that those people with less formal educational backgrounds are any less entitled tomake whatever they wish, or have their work recognized. Most such people are working as hard as anyone, and care about what they're doing. But it should be recognized by all, that both parties are looking at this issue from theirown perspectives, and they're complex ones. The beginners get defensive overtheir percieved lack of more formal skills, while the more highly trained folksget defensive over their apparent lack of commensurate sucess in relation to how hard they've worked to get where they are. Both bodies of work, and their makers, are justified in their views, but both may be antagonistic towards the others views, as we've seen here in this thread. The inclusion of "A Confession" really put the lid on my pot. I get the feeling he should have signed it since it seems to express his ego so well. Nah. It's an interesting commentary by Picasso. We can learn insights into his thought process from it. What Abrasha learned, he'll have to tell us himself. Makes interesting reading. So does, by the way, if you can find it somewhere, Salvadore Dali's discussion on what it takes to be a great artist. (by the time he's done with his list of requirements, only one man in the universe, himself, qualifies...) There are many interesting viewpoints on the nature of art. Abrasha or others on this list can no doubt recommend many varied ones. All are valid within the context of who wrote them. Few should ever be taken outof that context, except for very carefully. This is such a case. Your how to comments to others have helped me and I will keep reading the news. I'm glad to have helped, as, I'm sure, are those many other users of thisgroup who also give freely. Including, often enough, Abrasha. But it ocurs to me that perhaps, in addition to all the "How To" tips, perhaps we should also now and then get into the "WHY DO" tips. Not just how to make this stuff, buy why do whe do it. We talk a lot of techniques, and virtually nothing about aesthetics. One thing this thread has made obvious is thatthere is a broad range of opinions and levels of training regarding the aesthetics of jewelry and jewelry design. This is not trivial stuff, by the way. I recall in graduate school, perhaps the most intense classes were the seminar classes where most of what we talked about were issues like this. Not how to make a thing. But why make a given thing. WHAT was worth making, and what not.Why? etc. like I said, gets intense. Very invigorating stuff too. cheers Peter |
#68
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A necklace I am proud of :)
Charlie Johns wrote:
Mr. Rowe, I have been interested in the lapidary arts for some time now and have been privilaged to meet and learn from some fine people. I found your newsgroup, read it with some regularity, and have learned more. "your newsgroup"? Interesting way of putting this. Just in case you did not know sir, this is Usenet. This is where the Net started so many years ago. This is not a private bulletin board. Some of the things I learned I really didn't want to know. [the thread A necklace I am proud of] What a crock and a lie! This thread has been going on for almost two weeks now, longer than any thread over the past several years. And obviously you have been reading it, voluntarily I presume. Or did someone put a gun to your head to make you read it? Mr. Abrasha Please don't call me "Mr." Abrasha. Makes me feel like a hairdresser. is a talented man from what I see on his web site, thank you. but unfortunately we can't all go to school in Germany for two years and be coddled by a master jeweler. You don't know what you are talking about. Coddled you say. It was beaten into me, the German way! (The Prussian way?) Almost literally. Some of my work as an apprentice, ended up in between my master's anvil and his large forging hammer. If I didn't get it right the first time, I got to do it over until I did get it right. And btw, schooling in Germany (at least at the time) was free for me, as a Dutch citizen, a member country of the EC. My first employer after my apprenticeship and certification as a goldsmith was the late Professor Klaus Ullrich. I had wanted to work for him ever since my friend Alan Rosenberg, who worked for him, had introduced me to him. One day, a few days after I had received a DM .25 raise, and the day after I had screwed up a part of a major bracelet he had to take to a show in Duesseldorf, for which he was to leave in a few days, I came to work in his shop and found a note on my bench. It said something like, "You last chance to get it right. You screw up again, you're out". How's that for coddled? The bottom line is. Germans produce great craftsmen. The apprenticeship program at Mercedes Benz at the time was legendary. "The work produced by students in the second year of the Goldschmiedeschule in Pforzheim (where I went to school), is far superior in craftsmanship than anything produced by goldsmiths in this country who have been at the bench for 15 years." This statement was made by a person who used to work at a jewelry gallery in the US, upon seeing the work by students at that school, exhibited in the lobby of the school. If you don't believe that, I suggest you travel there and see for yourself. Although I question your ability to see the quality in true craftsmanship. It is in fact a sad statement, that anyone who is older than maybe 3 to 5 years and out of diapers, would take the trouble to put a necklace like that online, than take the trouble to subscribe to a newsgroup to which (s)he has never posted before and then announce in the newsgroup that (s)he is proud of his (her) accomplishment. It took 5 hours. Well whoopeeee! It took me 300 hours to do this: http://www.abrasha.com/slideshow/jud...orah%20lit.htm SNIP The inclusion of "A Confession" really put the lid on my pot. Huh, What does that mean? I get the feeling he should have signed it since it seems to express his ego so well. Interesting how you chose to read Picasso's "A Confession", but apparently did not bother to look at my "Process" pages, and/or my "Video" page. Or chose not to mention it. -- Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#69
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A necklace I am proud of :)
Abrasha wrote in
: SNIPPED One day, a few days after I had received a DM .25 raise, and the day after I had screwed up a part of a major bracelet he had to take to a show in Duesseldorf, for which he was to leave in a few days, I came to work in his shop and found a note on my bench. It said something like, "You last chance to get it right. You screw up again, you're out". So basically you are saying you made the parts for some other artist's art. If it was his why did you make anything for it? Don't sound to me like he had any talent if he was relying on you to make HIS art. How's that for coddled? The bottom line is. Germans produce great craftsmen. The apprenticeship program at Mercedes Benz at the time was legendary. Yeah and now they build Chryslers. BFD -- Larry S. TS 52 |
#70
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A necklace I am proud of :)
"HareBall" wrote in message news Abrasha wrote in : One day, a few days after I had received a DM .25 raise, and the day after I had screwed up a part of a major bracelet he had to take to a show in Duesseldorf, for which he was to leave in a few days, I came to work in his shop and found a note on my bench. It said something like, "You last chance to get it right. You screw up again, you're out". So basically you are saying you made the parts for some other artist's art. If it was his why did you make anything for it? Don't sound to me like he had any talent if he was relying on you to make HIS art. --------------------- That's how real workshops work. Jewellery making uses a series of medium and heavy engineering techniqueson a very small scale. Because of this it tends to use engineering working practices. Normal engineering working practice uses a number of highly skilled craftsmen doing different parts of a single design. A jeweller may be adequate at doing all the different parts of a single design, but they won't be as good a polisher as a craftsman polisher who does nothing else. They may produce adequate castings, but they won't be as good as those produced by a professional caster. Doing everything yourself is always a compromise. To get the same results as a specialist takes longer, with the concomitant rise in costs. A 'one man band' has little choice. When you are big enough to employ people then you employ specialists and get what are called 'economies of scale'. In the larger jewellery houses the designer works as a CAD station and probably never picks up a file or a graver from one week to the next. A large part of the current graduate programme at the Central Jewellery School in the UK is the use of CAD systems for the design of jewellery. -- William Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. |
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