OT SS going to the source

On 1/11/05 9:48 AM, in article
, "K"
wrote:

Cheryl Isaak wrote in
:

And what is worse is so many teachers not seeming to do anything but
"cut slack" - a grade for class participation that could raise a D to
B. How would a parent know if there is trouble?

Well, I will say the ones who do that are far fewer than the ones that
don't, in my experience (and from my teacher's perspective). They are out
there, but that sort of stuff just makes the teacher's job harder in the
long run.

K

Sadly it never seems to be "that teacher" that suffers.

Cheryl

On 1/11/05 9:59 AM, in article , "Dianne
Lewandowski" wrote:

Cheryl Isaak wrote:
Are there unacceptable risks? Especially when it comes to personal security.
I was addressing the issue of scams and cons. Most of them are so
transparent as to be ludicrous.

If they were so transparent, there would be no Jim Jones, or the myriad
serial "husbands" or serial "wives". These are just examples. Many
people are swept up. Not always because of greed. Not always because
they don't have brains.

Then what causes it if not stupidity, greed or fear.

We are not all made equally. I know. For some of us, it simply doesn't
make sense. But for others . . .

But we are made equally, from the same act of procreation - the union of a
sperm and an ova. We have the same basic wiring (barring genetic or
congenital diseases/disorders).


You simply will not make any allowances for the frailties of others.
That's an extremely narrow perspective of the world.





I think it is part of the basic education - or as my DH put it, you should
know "where" you're stupid!

Ahhh, again you have the premise that we are all equal, with an equal
ability. That's just not true in the real world. Varying IQ levels,
learning disabilities. The list is endless.

I think that the way we educate children, especially currently, focuses too
much on the "feel good" parts and not enough on developing personal
strengths and learning to compensate for weaknesses. Once those basic coping
mechanisms are learned, they can be applied as needed through out life.

I had all those "developing personal strengths" as a child. Lots of
tough rules to live by, and a mother like you who had no compassion for
anyone different than herself. None of that made one hoot of difference
for directional differences. I didn't even realize what the difficulty
was until about a year ago when someone on RCTN posted about a website.
I was in seventh heaven. Finally able to understand what was going
on. I had self-blamed my entire life, thanks to a mother who made
absolutely no allowance for anything other than her idea of perfection.

And there are certain things everyone with normal intelligence should know -
how to add and subtract (basic math) and how to read, draw information from
what you have just read and EITHER discuss what you have read OR make a
decision based on it.

Yes, I think schools have done a poor job in some parts of the country
of teaching critical thinking skills. I see it every week in my
students. But I have taught enough "challenged" students to know that
we all learn differently, have different abilities to cope, and
different time frames in which to learn a given task. And some (like my
husband kicking the table) just never get it, even though he has a high
IQ and is a professional with solid values.

I would postulate that "challenged" students would fall outside that "norm".


And these skills ought to be in place, ready to be
built upon, by the end of third grade.

Wow. You give no allowance at all for sound research that says the
brain doesn't stop maturing until sometime between the ages of 22 and
25. Many in third grade still believe in Santa Claus.
Dianne

I SAID BASIC SKILLS TO BE BUILT UPON - and no age added - I've meet all too
many college grads that lack those basic skills. Hold them back until they
get it or move them to a different track of education.

Cheryl

Cheryl Isaak wrote:
Then what causes it if not stupidity, greed or fear.

An inability to discern, for some people. Or exceptionally gifted con
artists who have conned some of the best and the brightest. Happens all
the time.

The very fact that you don't get it puts you in the category of
"disabled" from a certain perspective.

But we are made equally, from the same act of procreation - the union of a
sperm and an ova. We have the same basic wiring (barring genetic or
congenital diseases/disorders).

Therein lies your difficulty in understanding. No. We are NOT all
created equally. We are all born with different IQ levels. Different
specialties - which is why some become expert welders and others become
expert financiers. I have a directional disability. That doesn't make
me stupid. But obviously my wiring gets blitzed in that area. My
brother can't spell as well as I could (grin), but that doesn't make him
an idiot. In fact, he's a genius at math.

I would postulate that "challenged" students would fall outside that "norm".

And that's where your theory fails. I have piano students who are
challenged, but they are as bright in other areas as anyone else.

We ALL have disabilities in one form or another. There is no such thing
as "normal". Ask any psychology professor.


I SAID BASIC SKILLS TO BE BUILT UPON - and no age added - I've meet all too
many college grads that lack those basic skills. Hold them back until they
get it or move them to a different track of education.

No, you said they should be cemented in by the third grade.

This conversation is fruitless . . . as usual. But I now know further
where you are coming from when you post. In fact, this conversation
made a light-bulb go off as I folded laundry this morning. I'm really
angry at my mother. You merely epitomize her faults. I'll try not to
let that emotional hot button get in my way in the future. Then again,
being human (there's that "normal" thing again), I may forget my
resolution and why I made it.

Dianne
--
"The Journal of Needlework" - The E-zine for All Needleworkers
http://journal.heritageshoppe.com

Ok Dianne -
Personal insults - be grateful I don't do the same! That would put be on
your level. I refuse.

Cheryl


On 1/11/05 12:50 PM, in article , "Dianne
Lewandowski" wrote:

Cheryl Isaak wrote:
Then what causes it if not stupidity, greed or fear.

An inability to discern, for some people. Or exceptionally gifted con
artists who have conned some of the best and the brightest. Happens all
the time.

The very fact that you don't get it puts you in the category of
"disabled" from a certain perspective.

But we are made equally, from the same act of procreation - the union of a
sperm and an ova. We have the same basic wiring (barring genetic or
congenital diseases/disorders).

Therein lies your difficulty in understanding. No. We are NOT all
created equally. We are all born with different IQ levels. Different
specialties - which is why some become expert welders and others become
expert financiers. I have a directional disability. That doesn't make
me stupid. But obviously my wiring gets blitzed in that area. My
brother can't spell as well as I could (grin), but that doesn't make him
an idiot. In fact, he's a genius at math.

I would postulate that "challenged" students would fall outside that "norm".

And that's where your theory fails. I have piano students who are
challenged, but they are as bright in other areas as anyone else.

We ALL have disabilities in one form or another. There is no such thing
as "normal". Ask any psychology professor.


I SAID BASIC SKILLS TO BE BUILT UPON - and no age added - I've meet all too
many college grads that lack those basic skills. Hold them back until they
get it or move them to a different track of education.

No, you said they should be cemented in by the third grade.

This conversation is fruitless . . . as usual. But I now know further
where you are coming from when you post. In fact, this conversation
made a light-bulb go off as I folded laundry this morning. I'm really
angry at my mother. You merely epitomize her faults. I'll try not to
let that emotional hot button get in my way in the future. Then again,
being human (there's that "normal" thing again), I may forget my
resolution and why I made it.

Dianne

Cheryl Isaak wrote:

And there are certain things everyone with normal intelligence should know -
how to add and subtract (basic math) and how to read, draw information from
what you have just read and EITHER discuss what you have read OR make a
decision based on it. And these skills ought to be in place, ready to be
built upon, by the end of third grade.

And who should be responsible for making sure that happens? Parents?
Or that compulsory schooling that you'd prefer to avoid?

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Dianne Lewandowski wrote:

Cheryl Isaak wrote:
[stuff snipped]

Pssst! Dianne! Lighten up: Cheryl's not even old enough to be your
mother! LOL!

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

On 1/11/05 1:39 PM, in article
et, "Dr. Brat"
wrote:

Cheryl Isaak wrote:

And there are certain things everyone with normal intelligence should know -
how to add and subtract (basic math) and how to read, draw information from
what you have just read and EITHER discuss what you have read OR make a
decision based on it. And these skills ought to be in place, ready to be
built upon, by the end of third grade.

And who should be responsible for making sure that happens? Parents?
Or that compulsory schooling that you'd prefer to avoid?

Elizabeth


I was speaking philosophically to some degree - I really don't know how to
"enforce" it. I deeply and sincerely believe that if one CAN NOT read or do
basic math (add, subtract), one can not be a good citizen or a responsible
one. By third grade (age 8-10), those basic skills need to be in place to
give each child a fighting chance.

I have not advocated not giving those with disabilities an education.

Cheryl

On 1/11/05 1:42 PM, in article
et, "Dr. Brat"
wrote:

Dianne Lewandowski wrote:

Cheryl Isaak wrote:
[stuff snipped]

Pssst! Dianne! Lighten up: Cheryl's not even old enough to be your
mother! LOL!

Elizabeth

Elizabeth my dear friend - don't bother.

Cheryl

Cheryl Isaak wrote:
On 1/11/05 1:42 PM, in article
et, "Dr. Brat"
wrote:
Dianne Lewandowski wrote:
Cheryl Isaak wrote:

[stuff snipped]

Pssst! Dianne! Lighten up: Cheryl's not even old enough to be your
mother! LOL!

Elizabeth


Elizabeth my dear friend - don't bother.

I shouldn't have snipped everything, but I actually posted that before
getting to the post where Dianne said that she realizes that she's
really angry at her mother. That's a pretty significant realization,
even if you do think it comes too late. Some people just set us on edge
and it can be really useful when the lightbulb goes off the way it just
did here.

Elizabeth (practicing without a license. I'll stop now)
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Dianne Lewandowski wrote in
:

We ALL have disabilities in one form or another. There is no such
thing as "normal". Ask any psychology professor.

Heh. I am one. It depends on your definition of normal. But there are an
awful lot of people at the ends of the bell curve.

I SAID BASIC SKILLS TO BE BUILT UPON - and no age added - I've meet
all too many college grads that lack those basic skills. Hold them
back until they get it or move them to a different track of
education.

No, you said they should be cemented in by the third grade.

Actually, she said:

"And these skills ought to be in place, ready to be
built upon, by the end of third grade."

She is right -- the *basic* skills she's talking about should be in place
at a very early age, because if they aren't, the child is always playing
catch up.

K