OT SS going to the source

This might work in USA , in Other countries one canvote or n ot vote ,
but not change any name that either the party or a self appointed
party of 1 give the electing person ..
mirjam

I disagree. In the US, there is the option to write in a name for any
elected position. Every year, there are 100's of write in campaigns as well
as the option of writing in your favorite cartoon character. I hear Homer
Simpson got 20 votes for President in a town near me.

Cheryl

On 1/13/05 1:15 AM, in article , "Mirjam
Bruck-Cohen" wrote:

Cheryl , yes one can be responsible and NOT vote , in certain
political situations !!!
mirjam


Brenda -

Better said. Thank you

I have this pet peeve about responsible citizenship - have had from about
7th grade.

My history teacher that year was a man whose family came out East Germany
and had found relatives living in the States. While I am sure it mostly fell
on deaf ears, he spent a lot of time talking about the duties of
citizenship, mostly about voting, especially about informed voting, about
paying a fair tax, about tyranny.

And just to play devil's advocate a bit - is it possible to be a good
citizen with out being a responsible one? How about the other - responsible
without being a good citizen?
I am wrestling with this a bit due to a conversation I've had recently with
some one I know via Scouts.
Cheryl



On 1/11/05 4:16 PM, in article ,
"Brenda" wrote:

Oddly enough, I know several people who can't read or do basic math who
happen to be outstanding citizens. They are hard-working people who
live to help others and do not believe any task is beneath their
dignity. But yes, they are easily conned so they do need to have
someone protect their interests. I believe that is more in line with
what you are trying to get across.

Cheryl Isaak wrote:
I was speaking philosophically to some degree - I really don't know how to
"enforce" it. I deeply and sincerely believe that if one CAN NOT read or do
basic math (add, subtract), one can not be a good citizen or a responsible
one. By third grade (age 8-10), those basic skills need to be in place to
give each child a fighting chance.

I have not advocated not giving those with disabilities an education.

--
Brenda

I am all for ideals ,,believe me ,,, but i live the real life every
minute as it is ,, no ideal will pay my bills , heal me , or have
emapthy for me when i need it ...
mirjam

On 1/13/05 1:36 AM, in article , "Mirjam
Bruck-Cohen" wrote:

Cheryl ,, i agree with you that it should be so,,,,,,


I say that in the eyes of God and in the eyes of the law, we are all to be
treated equally!

But that obviously isn't good enough for you!
But is this really happening ,,, in real life ????
mirjam

Cheryl



No Mirjam - an ideal.

Cheryl

On 1/14/05 9:33 AM, in article , "Dawne
Peterson" wrote:


"Mirjam Bruck-Cohen" wrote
Don`t you think that IF PLATO would have met
Freud ,,,, Stalin,,, Ghandi just to name some names that lived and
thought after him ,,, maybe he would have changed some of his ideas as
well ???//

Of course he would have--he changed his ideas during his lifetime, as he
revisited the same problems in later works. Don't you think it is one of
the signs of an intelligent person, that they do not become complacent, but
keep thinking?
Dawne



And don't forget, similar people lived in those time. Nothing is truly new
under the sun.

Cheryl

"Mirjam Bruck-Cohen" wrote
Don`t you think that IF PLATO would have met
Freud ,,,, Stalin,,, Ghandi just to name some names that lived and
thought after him ,,, maybe he would have changed some of his ideas as
well ???//

Of course he would have--he changed his ideas during his lifetime, as he
revisited the same problems in later works. Don't you think it is one of
the signs of an intelligent person, that they do not become complacent, but
keep thinking?
Dawne

Re-opening this can of worms, I just heard the statistic that only 35% of
current retirees have pension income. So, that someone doesn't have a pension
is *not* a matter of making poor job choices, but actually is statistically
twice as likely as having lucked into a job with a pension.




--
Finished 12/8/04 -- Army bear ornament
WIP: Fireman's Prayer (#2), Amid Amish Life, Angel of Autumn, Calif Sampler,
Holiday Snowglobe

Paralegal - Writer - Editor - Researcher
http://hometown.aol.com/kmc528/KMC.html

And of those 35%, I wonder how many didn't have it offered until late in
life. Our situation is one of those.

Victoria's comment notwithstanding (luck has nothing to do with it), I
beg to differ. There are only so many jobs, a growing population, a set
of birth circumstances. Luck (or the gods, if you prefer) can play a
huge role. Not to downplay hard work. That certainly also enters into
the equation. We're just not all born equally, nor does our society
offer equal circumstances. That's a common myth. The idea of pulling
oneself up by the bootstraps is a worthy value. But the miracles of a
few doesn't make it so for the masses. We can also point to those who
make poor choices. But to paint the masses that didn't make it into
that proverbial corner is equally unfair and untrue.

Dianne

Karen C - California wrote:

Re-opening this can of worms, I just heard the statistic that only 35% of
current retirees have pension income. So, that someone doesn't have a pension
is *not* a matter of making poor job choices, but actually is statistically
twice as likely as having lucked into a job with a pension.





--
"The Journal of Needlework" - The E-zine for All Needleworkers
http://journal.heritageshoppe.com

Well, I consider it very "Lucky" that I was born and raised in the UK and
not in Uganda, for instance!!! PURE luck!

Pat P

"escape" wrote in message
...
Like I said, luck has nothing to do with the outcome of life. Nothing
what so
ever. I don't know what "gods" you are talking about. I don't think
"god" has
anything to do with life, either. Not the bible, not anyone can make that
claim. The only claim we can make is that which is tangible. All else
is
faith and not fact. Fact is, people DO pull up by their bootstraps (your
slogan, not mine) and people can and do change the course of their lives
by
making good choices and decisions. To say anything else is a false claim,
at
best.

I can name any amount of adversity I've encountered in my life, and there
are
mountains of it, but not one slight circumstance, not one drop of luck has
entered into how I live today. I live today based on the decisions and
choices
I made a second ago. And this one from a second after that. All of my
life now
is a direct result of the second prior to this one. Nothing is luck.
Nothing
is special.

This is my belief and experience. Karma? That's another story and not
too many
people in this newsgroup can wrap their heads around that concept, so it's
useless to discuss it.


On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:54:31 -0600, Dianne Lewandowski
opined:

And of those 35%, I wonder how many didn't have it offered until late in
life. Our situation is one of those.

Victoria's comment notwithstanding (luck has nothing to do with it), I
beg to differ. There are only so many jobs, a growing population, a set
of birth circumstances. Luck (or the gods, if you prefer) can play a
huge role. Not to downplay hard work. That certainly also enters into
the equation. We're just not all born equally, nor does our society
offer equal circumstances. That's a common myth. The idea of pulling
oneself up by the bootstraps is a worthy value. But the miracles of a
few doesn't make it so for the masses. We can also point to those who
make poor choices. But to paint the masses that didn't make it into
that proverbial corner is equally unfair and untrue.

Dianne

Karen C - California wrote:

Re-opening this can of worms, I just heard the statistic that only 35%
of
current retirees have pension income. So, that someone doesn't have a
pension
is *not* a matter of making poor job choices, but actually is
statistically
twice as likely as having lucked into a job with a pension.










Need a good, cheap, knowledge expanding present for yourself or a friend?
http://www.animaux.net/stern/present.html

escape wrote:
I can name any amount of adversity I've encountered in my life, and
there are mountains of it, but not one slight circumstance, not one
drop of luck has entered into how I live today.

I understand where you're head is at with these comments. That is a
belief system, not a fact. :-)

I live today based on the decisions and choices I made a second ago.
And this one from a second after that. All of my life now is a
direct result of the second prior to this one. Nothing is luck.
Nothing is special.

Tell that to the victims of the tsunami, or of the holocaust, or of
those born in poverty stricken areas of the world. It wasn't their
choice, nor a choice made seconds before it happened.

Tell that to the millions who lost their jobs these past few years, many
because of the misdeeds of corporate executives. They didn't have any
choices. Granted, what they do from that point on is their choice. But
that is also providing that they aren't suffering severe emotional
trauma, physical trauma, financial ruin which may take years to heal the
damage.

This is my belief and experience.

And you are, of course, entitled to your belief systems, and I'm
entitled to point out other ideas which may "collide" with your belief
systems.

Dianne

--
"The Journal of Needlework" - The E-zine for All Needleworkers
http://journal.heritageshoppe.com

S (Karen C - California) wrote in
:

Re-opening this can of worms, I just heard the statistic that only 35%
of current retirees have pension income.

Source please?

So, that someone doesn't
have a pension is *not* a matter of making poor job choices, but
actually is statistically twice as likely as having lucked into a job
with a pension.

I left a well-paying job in industry that had no pension other than some
profit-sharing (in addition to retirement savings) for a job in higher
education that paid barely a third of that, but had not only a lump sum
retirement plan but employer matching for savings contribution. I vetted
several offers until I found the one that gave me what I wanted.

It was a conscious decision, and luck had nothing to do with it It wasn't
luck that made me work three jobs to get through grad school loan-free so I
could get a job in higher ed -- and managed to add money to my savings at
the same time. It wasn't luck that made me realize the high tech job I had
wasn't going to be around much longer, and I better do something about it
proactively. I gave up the short-term benefits of making a boatload of
money for long-term security. I did my research. I didn't rely on luck.

K

"escape" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:47:40 -0600, K opined:

(Karen C - California) wrote in
:

Re-opening this can of worms, I just heard the statistic that only 35%
of current retirees have pension income.

Source please?

So, that someone doesn't
have a pension is *not* a matter of making poor job choices, but
actually is statistically twice as likely as having lucked into a job
with a pension.

I left a well-paying job in industry that had no pension other than some
profit-sharing (in addition to retirement savings) for a job in higher
education that paid barely a third of that, but had not only a lump sum
retirement plan but employer matching for savings contribution. I vetted
several offers until I found the one that gave me what I wanted.

It was a conscious decision, and luck had nothing to do with it It wasn't
luck that made me work three jobs to get through grad school loan-free so
I
could get a job in higher ed -- and managed to add money to my savings at
the same time. It wasn't luck that made me realize the high tech job I
had
wasn't going to be around much longer, and I better do something about it
proactively. I gave up the short-term benefits of making a boatload of
money for long-term security. I did my research. I didn't rely on luck.

K

Yes. That's correct. So you can see that lucky claims could be
experienced
both ways. Some people prefer to say it was bad luck they lost their job,
etc.
Some people say it was good luck to be born somewhere. I say that's
hooey. If
more people paid attention to what they do now, their future will be
different.
We have far more control of things than the subtlety of lucky claims.
Many, or
most people cannot wrap their minds around these concepts.

V

Just a quick question. Does being responsible for the life and comfort of
others have any bearing on whether one truly has the ability to make
choices. For some people the only way out would be to abandon someone who
desperately needs them. What then? Would the choice to be interested only
in one's self be a good thing?

I'm also not sure your conviction that many, or most people cannot wrap
their minds around that concept isn't a definite putdown and an insult to
the intelligence of the members of this group. Is there something I'm
missing here because I don't necessarily agree with a lot of what's being
said but it seems to be coming from a highly intelligent group of people and
sure holds my interest.

Lucille

Lucille